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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Dahin
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 09:57:00 -
[61]
Oh god I used to spend hours upon hours on these farmers down in stain. With the previous probing system it was actually quite possible to grab em under certain circumstances. With the new one, there are none.
One good way to get rid of them was introduced a long way back (since last probing system) but it's permanent feature is the "oh, we'll make that work soon(tm): * probing cans: Where do you think all their loot goes to? Steal it or pop it for max grief and no food on the table. * Covert ops (and not recons) not showing in local or being delayed for a about 1-2 minutes is a good idea, but then again I'm a covops pilot and I'm biased in favor on that.
Something to remember is that these are not unsupervised bots. There is someone sitting next to the 10e+3 consoles/puters and responds if something actually happens. So no go for ccp intervention (at least in the extent it exists)
The major problem with this situation is the 100% invulnerability these people have. And it's not a fundamental bot problem, it's a generic one. Bots just never forget to keep their eyes on local. The real problems with bots is the hisec missionrunners. Many carebears shed tears (of salty goodness might I add) because they just can't compete with the armies of 'wfgwrvsaw'. But then again, if you offer someone absolute immunity, that's what you'll get.
Damn it, i miss being flamed in chinese. Give me some remotely possible way to get my hatemails back.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.17 13:40:00 -
[62]
Needs a dev response. |
Antiquus Inflatio
Amarr Phoenix Propulsion Labs
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Posted - 2009.06.17 13:56:00 -
[63]
Well it's clear that is someone was clever enough to program a computer to run a macro that makes the magnificent sum of 5m/isk hr, while at the same time not allowing parasites, I mean hard working piratical types the ability to gank them while fiercely battling their savage light drones, this is destroying the game and throws everything out of balance and can no longer be tolerated. The solution is we move Eve to the Nintendo Wii platform immediately, preventing ebil macroers use of their dastardly abilities to program something on a computer.. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:43:00 -
[64]
Local should be set to Recent Speakers mode, just like in wormhole space. |
Escador
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 14:49:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Antiquus Inflatio Well it's clear that is someone was clever enough to program a computer to run a macro that makes the magnificent sum of 5m/isk hr, while at the same time not allowing parasites, I mean hard working piratical types the ability to gank them while fiercely battling their savage light drones, this is destroying the game and throws everything out of balance and can no longer be tolerated. The solution is we move Eve to the Nintendo Wii platform immediately, preventing ebil macroers use of their dastardly abilities to program something on a computer..
This is again taken from description of a typical EVE "help" tool:
"It manages to uninterruptedly hunt npc pirates at Asteroid belts and can touch the impressive 40-50 Million ISK per hour income if used in low security systems"
And keep in mind that these people can be running at least 5-10 accounts simultaneously, it will start to add up...
But the isk and the macro isn't realy the biggest issue, but the fact they they are untouchable... (except maybe as mentioned with login traps, if you have enough people and time....)
esc |
Pnandor
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:07:00 -
[66]
It sounds like some are a little afraid when we talk about down the local? they should be happy just because there will be
so much more players and shoot down, if the local disappearance.
Or, is some lazy to use the direction the scanner?
I hear all the time pirates and troll pokes at carebears and want them to PVP in 0.0 or low sec but now it is completely
inverted when people talk about down the local? |
Liz Laser
Outland Research and Development The Excession Group
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Posted - 2009.06.17 15:16:00 -
[67]
Originally by: baltec1 Or we can have local set like WH space and people can manualy scan as they currently do.
Because WH's have been such a success.
Making players mash a scan button all day will chase them to games that don't. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/06/2009 21:47:15 Automatically refreshing scanner to replace local so that anyone comes within 15 AU you see them, done. Simple
I suggested this months ago and no one said anything. It's the easiest/simplest solution and would work just fine, but people are lazy, so they don't want it.
My suggestion is that the scanner would automatically refresh itself, just like the overview, so that any ships that come within say, 20AU would appear, not cloaked ships obviously.
This would mean NPC'ers would not have to mash the refresh button every minute. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Dahin Something to remember is that these are not unsupervised bots. There is someone sitting next to the 10e+3 consoles/puters and responds if something actually happens. So no go for ccp intervention (at least in the extent it exists)
That's not the case with this bot, it is unsupervised, it can warp you to a safespot when a hostile enters, cloak you, warp you back to the belts, keep warping around until npcs are found, then kill them.
It can even log you off if you run out of ammo. |
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Liz Laser
Originally by: baltec1 Or we can have local set like WH space and people can manualy scan as they currently do.
Because WH's have been such a success.
Making players mash a scan button all day will chase them to games that don't.
Well yes it has to be honest! I love the PVP side in WH compared to 0.0!
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VoiceInTheDesert
Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:47:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Ok, now it is time for the no-local whine, because everyone who is ratting and refuses to go leroy on a PvP Gang with his PvE Ship is a Macroer.
A few more whines are still needed today.
I think the next on the schedule should be Boys playing Girl-Avatars on the Internetz again. It should also be notified, that it was a lot of time since we had a major whine about fixing Bugs is more important then any WiS.
A few more whines about L4 Missions and Ninja-Salvaging is also needed.
Please keep it coming "mature" community.
This kind of reply is my favorite because it allows the author to feel as though he is superior to the whiners without the keen realization that he, himself is whining (about whiners, ironically) and just as annoying.
The suggestion that the game needs some improvement in some area does not necessitate that it's a whine. If there is a part of the game that guarantees a positive outcome for one side or the other (in this case, local allows a program such as the OP has shown can make ratting no NOsec risk free), that should be fixed.
There will always be areas to improve in. It does not mean that everyone suggesting these changes is intelligent, well informed, stupid or a whiner in itself. You should evaluate the suggestion on a post to post basis. But then again, that would take effort, which is something that "whiners" aren't willing to exert and their critics (you in this case) are even less so.
The OP in this case made an excellent point that macro programs combined with this software is basically risk-proof and several people in this thread have taken the time to offer helpful suggestions rather than just reply with form letters.
On topic: removing local does create some issues and would make people work at lot harder, not just in nosec, but in empire wars and lowsec as well. That said, I think perhaps increasing the onboard scanner range (a little, not full system) and having it continually refresh based on range and angle setting would still allow honestly ratting/mining ships to keep a good eye on local. |
Lissandra Ketarl
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Posted - 2009.06.17 17:59:00 -
[72]
Is there actually any risk at all of getting banned if a player decides to macro?
There should be, but to be honest I'm not seeing it. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Ok, now it is time for the no-local whine, because everyone who is ratting and refuses to go leroy on a PvP Gang with his PvE Ship is a Macroer.
No one in this thread has said that.
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon A few more whines are still needed today.
No, a lot more contructive posts on how to replace local with somthing useful and a Dev response on their opinions are still needed.
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon I think the next on the schedule should be Boys playing Girl-Avatars on the Internetz again. It should also be notified, that it was a lot of time since we had a major whine about fixing Bugs is more important then any WiS. A few more whines about L4 Missions and Ninja-Salvaging is also needed.
I'll get these threads started right now.
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Please keep it coming "mature" community.
Thanks, we will try. |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:14:00 -
[74]
What are CCP doing about it?
Good ideas so far:
- Cov Ops ships leave local when they cloak (Fine as long as they too lose local as they have 'disconnected') - Remove cloak invulnerability (Only Cov ops ships can be 100% undetectable) - Personal fav - Have a feature that 'auto-updates' the scanner for you. - Reasonable, pretty tidy.
Bad ideas:
- Drop local and have nothing to replace it - Allow cloaks on non-cov ops ships
Side affects:
- 75% of roaming gangs will be comprised of cov ops ships - people stop going to places where Local doesn't exit - More spin the ship - More GTC sales (cause I'm not ratting in 0.0 ever again to fund my pvp habbit) - T1 ship prices go up, people start using them a lot more
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.17 18:49:00 -
[75]
I notice that almost no one i this tread had spent a thought about the secondary effect of the often suggested idea of removing local and substituting it with an automated scan system.
The server load of the automated scan system will kill the game as the lag will become unbearable and the servers will crash very often.
Before some bright boy stat saying it is not true, it is not an opinion of mine, removing local has been discussed to death in the Assembly hall and the old Game development forum and that is what the Dev have stated.
The Dev opinion is very simple "We want to remove local from 0.0 but will not do it until we have a replacement system that will not kill the server with excess load and that is as good as local if used by an intelligent player".
A auto updating scanner is not that tool. |
Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:08:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The Dev opinion is very simple "We want to remove local from 0.0 but will not do it until we have a replacement system that will not kill the server with excess load and that is as good as local if used by an intelligent player".
A auto updating scanner is not that tool.
Alas, you are of course correct (i.e. local isn't going away unless we are prepared to all be blinded), but let us have 'hope' at least ;0
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails hi cat here
i was thinking earlier about corpses...
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Grath Telkin
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:08:00 -
[77]
Ok, after reading over that site, thats f'n ridiculous.
That thing is virtually untouchable, the demo videos even show you how frickin untouchable you actually are.
Regardless on if you feel that locals removal would help or hurt ratters, browse the site, and tell me if you think that program is in the spirit of the game, or even remotely fair play at all.
BACON was removed for this very reason, and the only reason it was removed at all, was that its creators decided to go public with it.
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Descrambled
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:11:00 -
[78]
The ratter in me likes using Local as intel tool
The pvper in me wish local was gone. The tiny bit of role player in me wants local gone. The Alliance pvper in me wants local gone
I am tired of gangs using local as intel tool and just like warping away. No element of surpise unless you can blockade them on both sides
Local ruins pvp in a big way.
Would be more immersive if scout really had to SCOUT and search all gates and safespots for enemy gangs etc
Would make covops more stealthier
I love idea of getting rid of local altogether. Use directional scanner that is more realistic for 0.0 operations
Ratters- they all Macro mostly anyway. They can just get new macro that automates direction scanner for them
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:16:00 -
[79]
Welcome to EvE, where local hasn't been removed from 0.0 since 2003.
On a side note, the idea of being removed from local while cloaked is a good idea. that would make things much more interesting. --------------------------
WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls. |
Digiball
Amarr Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:30:00 -
[80]
no to the op!
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:31:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Razin on 17/06/2009 19:31:19
Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
On a side note, the idea of being removed from local while cloaked is a good idea. that would make things much more interesting.
It's only interesting for the cloak-specced ships. It also makes them disproportionally more powerful.
No Local for anyone is so much more democratic (paired with the new scanning tools, off course, as per Zulupark). ...
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needrandomnamegenerator
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:34:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Digiball no to the op!
so your saying your you use this macro then?
because honestly, if you ACTUALLY PLAY EVE, then nothing stated in this thread would hurt you
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:50:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Liz Laser
Originally by: baltec1 Or we can have local set like WH space and people can manualy scan as they currently do.
Because WH's have been such a success.
Making players mash a scan button all day will chase them to games that don't.
If the player is active then he is already 'mashing' buttons all day unless of course he is a macro user.:-D To keep safe all you need to do is hit the scan once every 20~30ish seconds right along with all the other buttons you normally press. Remember that timed/delayed local makes the hunter do the same thing as you so its not like in that brief amount of time he will direction scan you down to you extact location or even better probe you out. If its a cloaker then as soon as they appear on the ui you hit warp and instalaunch to the spot you *should* be alinged to as you rat then wait for a while till he gets bored and leaves. Whats this? It makes 0.0 solo ratting a bit more like the dangerous activity it should be? Yes it would so tough luck bubbles and suck it up like the rest of us have to do.
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Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:18:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 17/06/2009 20:20:37 In general I have 2 problems with the "keeping local and letting only covert op ships not show up when cloaked" option.
1)It does not solve the problem in relation to this programme as there will be the split second that you do show in local after you decloak from jumping in and cloak again, this split second would let the bot spot you and warp you out.
2)This means that solo roaming in 0.0 is no longer viable as you would either need to be in a gang with a covert ops or would need to dual account with a covert ops.
And thinking about it a bit more, it only solves the problem for this hunting NPC'ers issue and dosen't solve all the other issues about people in fleets still using it as a intel tool and running when a bigger fleet comes calling.
No, this issue needs to be looked at with the removal of local and having something usable to replace it, after all I rat in 0.0 too you know. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:28:00 -
[85]
It would be interesting to see a link to the dev post saying that the auto updating scanner would heavily lag the server because we already have the overview which automatically updates when ships come on grid.
The auto updating scanner would simply be a second, longer range overview.
How much can that really crash the server? |
Pnandor
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:35:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti It would be interesting to see a link to the dev post saying that the auto updating scanner would heavily lag the server because we already have the overview which automatically updates when ships come on grid.
The auto updating scanner would simply be a second, longer range overview.
How much can that really crash the server?
I vote for online scanner because it's exist in earth l÷l |
Turin
Caldari Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:43:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 16/06/2009 21:47:15 Automatically refreshing scanner to replace local so that anyone comes within 15 AU you see them, done. Simple
I suggested this months ago and no one said anything. It's the easiest/simplest solution and would work just fine, but people are lazy, so they don't want it.
My suggestion is that the scanner would automatically refresh itself, just like the overview, so that any ships that come within say, 20AU would appear, not cloaked ships obviously.
This would mean NPC'ers would not have to mash the refresh button every minute.
The scanner would have to be FAR FAR more than 20 AU to even consider this.
TBH, if your only warning that someone is closing in on you, is a 20 AU warning on your scanner, then you are already dead. It takes a ship 2-3 seconds to go 20AU while in warp. Less for some.
At 20AU, you MIGHT have 2-3 seconds to react if you dont want to die. Most likely less. I would put my money on the ratter dieing EVERY time. I mighgt loose on a rare occasion, but over the long haul, I would win a far lot more than I lost.
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Jan Deltord
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:48:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Christopher Multsanti It would be interesting to see a link to the dev post saying that the auto updating scanner would heavily lag the server because we already have the overview which automatically updates when ships come on grid.
The auto updating scanner would simply be a second, longer range overview.
How much can that really crash the server?
Short answer : Lots.
Longer answer : At the moment, the overview just has to load whats on your grid. A scan would mean it has to load whats on all grids.
If the EvE db is set up the way I think it is, objects in each grid are stored on a single file, so only that file needs to be checked once and then sent to each client listed in that file. On a long-range scan, you'd need to check every object in the System file foir which grid it's on, and then go to those grid files.
Inevitably, if local is removed, people in 0.0 would spam their scan button, and you'd get a macro to do it for you. This would then overload the db.
Nope, the solution to macros is tougher rats. This toon has sub-2m skill points, and can rat some triple BS spawns and all double BS spawns in 0.0 drone space (which has omni-damage rats who are harder to tank). Thats just ridiculous.
If you want to make life harder for macroing ratters, make rats tougher. More scram rats, especially when spawns are chained and have scramming rats preferentially target drones. Anything players hate, add more of.
Oh yeah, and mix up damage and vulnerability types, and add occasional out-of-area rats.
And Officer Spawns get Sleeper AI. |
CommmanderInChief
Comply Or Die
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Posted - 2009.06.17 20:55:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Local is fine, period.
The sofware "help" tool is an another problem, if it exists... I wouldn't be surprised if a pro-local remover use bad methods to have what they want.
it did exist one i only know was bacon..but thats no longer available..but obviously ppl will have distributed it.. |
Christopher Multsanti
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2009.06.17 21:06:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jan Deltord Lots of words.
Your missing the point. The auto scanner would not scan everything, you still have the directional scanner to narrow people down. The auto scanner would only show ships. It dosent have to load every object on every grid.
Originally by: Turin The scanner would have to be FAR FAR more than 20 AU to even consider this.
TBH, if your only warning that someone is closing in on you, is a 20 AU warning on your scanner, then you are already dead. It takes a ship 2-3 seconds to go 20AU while in warp. Less for some.
At 20AU, you MIGHT have 2-3 seconds to react if you dont want to die. Most likely less. I would put my money on the ratter dieing EVERY time. I mighgt loose on a rare occasion, but over the long haul, I would win a far lot more than I lost.
Yes, but you still have to slow down and drop out of warp, which makes the 2-3 seconds around 10 seconds to drop out of warp and get a lock.
But you make a good point, the range of the scanner would have to be tested to see what ranges would make it viable.
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