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Lana Hellfury
Minmatar Minmatar Republic Military Skool
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Posted - 2009.06.02 02:08:00 -
[1]
I've been running the numbers and I have yet to find a ship or module that will actually make me any isk after invention. Simply adding up the cost of datacores and assuming I get the average chance of inventing (even with perfect skills) I'm usually down 5-10% (assuming selling the T2 BPC straight to the market).
Are people really inventing these at a loss?
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0raven0
Burning Sky Labs MARS WARFARE CENTRE
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Posted - 2009.06.02 02:17:00 -
[2]
Edited by: 0raven0 on 02/06/2009 02:17:53
Originally by: Lana Hellfury
Are people really inventing these at a loss?
some people with some ships yes. Try looking at inventing mods, i hear they can make more isk then ships quite easily.
you also really need all skills at level 5 to make isk competitively because if you have level 4s and someone else has level 5s they will just sell stuff to where you will make no profit and they will make very little. ------
Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.06.02 02:18:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/06/2009 02:21:38
If you buy all components from sell orders (especially blueprints from contracts), and sell the finished product to existing buy orders, you will almost always end up with a net loss, very little exceptions. But if you buy components with buy orders, copy your own blueprints with labs fueled by buy order purchased fuel, and sell with your own sell orders, you can expect some amount of profit if you pick the right items at the right time. So... yes, overall, invention isn't extremely profitable on a "per job" scale, and some people actually DO invent at a loss... but on a large enough scale, if you don't mind the necessary clickfest (most people do), you can turn up a decent enough profit.
P.S. Oh, by the way, when I say "invent", I actually mean "invent AND manufacture". In a lot of cases, you can even drop the "invent" part altogether if you can score some decently-priced T2 BPCs off the contracts. And when I say "large enough scale", I mean 1-2 invention alts and 3-5 (or even more) manufacture alts - because one single inventor alt can crank up much more runs than a single manufacture alt could possibly manufacture.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Packe
Minmatar Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 04:35:00 -
[4]
Akita is right, if you have poor skills and want instant buy/sell then expect to make a loss. If you have good skills, you pick up materials on buy orders, and then sell finished products in provincial hubs and surplus in Jita, then you will make good isk. It requires not only 100% skilled inventors and builders, but a number of traders with 100% skills and high corp standings to minimize trade costs. You also need to pay close attention to what you are spending your manufacturing time on, because you will never have enough manufacturing to cover everything you need.
My estimate is that with poor skills and management you are looking at -5% to 0%. With good skills and management, you are looking at something like 20-30% profit on the finished item.
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Lana Hellfury
Minmatar Minmatar Republic Military Skool
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Posted - 2009.06.02 05:41:00 -
[5]
So effectively what you are telling me is to just not bother inventing and buy someones elses BPCs as they are more than likely below what I can produce them for anyway (ie, they were invented at a loss).
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Illuvian
Tribal Special Operations
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Posted - 2009.06.02 05:44:00 -
[6]
No, they are telling you that you need to skill up if you want to make a profit.
Metus improbos compescit, non clementia. It is fear, not kindness that restrains the wicked. |
dankness420
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Posted - 2009.06.02 05:56:00 -
[7]
invention can make you huge profit if you do it properly
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.06.02 07:17:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/06/2009 07:23:16
Originally by: Lana Hellfury So effectively what you are telling me is to just not bother inventing and buy someones elses BPCs as they are more than likely below what I can produce them for anyway (ie, they were invented at a loss).
In not so many words, yes, at least occasionally - however, it's very bothersome to do so.
But IF you skill up heavily (L4s in all relevant skills is the bare minimum for breaking even on most good-to-invent products, at least L5 in the encryption method is highly advisable) and are prepared to endure the painful clickfest required in large-scale operations (because if you do it on a low scale you're EXTREMELY likely to get shafted by the excessive streakiness of the invention output randomness) AND you also have some decent standings with the NPCs AND you have reasonable trading skills AND you have high enough standings to anchor your own research POS _AND_ you have at least one additional character ready for T2 manufacture... then yeah, you can start thinking about invention and subsequent manufacture.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.06.02 08:13:00 -
[9]
Invention is very very easy. Which means profit margins are low. The hard part is the finding of the most profitable items/ships to invent at the moment. Since there are so many players out there inventing at the moment, the margins will keep getting squeezed lowers, as players do what players always do, and become very efficient in terms of the amount of time they spend vs the result they gain. Remembering that it doesn't take that much profit per slot per hour to keep an entire account active just using isk, a small part of the reason GTCs keep going up in cost.
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Darcon Kylote
Canadian Imperial Armaments Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 12:46:00 -
[10]
Invention alone is generally not profitable, in terms of selling the BPCs. It is profitable if you invent AND manufacture the right thing.
BPCs sell on contracts below invention cost all the time because people are either liquidating their excess BPCs at cost to recover their isk (you can easily out-invent your manufacturing slot capacity), or they are part of that "my datactores are free" crowd, or they don't know how to calculate invention costs properly.
Similarly, many T2 final products (ships and mods) sell at a loss for similar reasons. The trick is to constantly re-examine several products that you are interested in/have the skills for and find the ones that are profitable "right now". Spreadsheets are not optional.
The other reason is that all T2 items are built from the same limited pool of T2 materials. When demand surges for a single item, it pulls up the prices for all the raw materials that go into that item, making some of the other things that also uses those raw materials unprofitable. There is a variable amount of "lag" in this process due to stockpiled mats and products though, so it takes a surprising amount of time to settle out.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.06.02 16:37:00 -
[11]
Invention currently is an isk sink. The my datacores i get are free crowd kills all the profit. They are worse than the my minerals I mine are free crowd.
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Nierna
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Posted - 2009.06.02 16:38:00 -
[12]
im running invention jobs and producing from the BPCs and i make myself 40% profit (in the case i buy all mats from market).
its definatly posible to make nice profits.
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Comingin Hot
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Comingin Hot on 02/06/2009 17:12:56 blablabla ... ALL IS HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
I invent and produce from those BPCs. I calc sell orders for the materials. I copy my own max run BPCs, which goes fast for moduls. I have every skill on 4. I try often to use meta items. I never found a modul, which would not bring me a profit. I dont know, what some players calculate. Maybe they forget to divide their result for invention costs through 10, if they get a 10-run BPC?
Most material calc tools for t2 moduls calc too much waste for the t2 components.
Ships are a different story. Production takes long. (which is hte first point, you have to consider. Maybe by the time you have built them the market is down on another price.)
Often you need more invention jobs until you reach the average success rate, means you might underperform with the first jobs and that can be an expensive investment until you have more luck.
Also it can be a dead end and real loss. Sometimes you only make profit with using a decryptor, sometimes you make never a profit, because the market for some ships is not driven by rational calculating inventers, but by BPO-owners or whoever, for whatever reason.
Too often I read about all these "profi" players complain about "amateur" players, who ruin the prices, because the amateurs would not produce efficiently. My experience is, this is often not true. These alleged unefficient producers often just do it different and better.
Of course the margins are no more as big as they were and going down more and more. Invention is work, especially with taht interface. I wish, I would need less clicks to start a job and invention on a POS has an even worse GUI.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:39:00 -
[14]
anyone try T2 Ammo??? Ships are meh, mods are normally OK, how bout Ammo?
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Delphen Gruss
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.02 17:43:00 -
[15]
As someone who's not been doing invention for a long time, I've been mucking about, learning how it works and stuff, and I can safely say that I make 35% to 40% profit on T2 ships. Now I'm not going full bore on invention as I do it slowly, only a couple of ships at a time, but I still make a decent profit doing it
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Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz anyone try T2 Ammo??? Ships are meh, mods are normally OK, how bout Ammo?
Margins can be awesome on the right T2 ammos but beware: build times are amazingly long. Profit per slot is excellent, profit per slot per day is, eh... well let's say I've seen better.
Whether that works for you or not depends on what you're into.
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Darcon Kylote
Canadian Imperial Armaments Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 12:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Governor LePetomane
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz anyone try T2 Ammo??? Ships are meh, mods are normally OK, how bout Ammo?
Margins can be awesome on the right T2 ammos but beware: build times are amazingly long. Profit per slot is excellent, profit per slot per day is, eh... well let's say I've seen better.
Whether that works for you or not depends on what you're into.
The long build times for ammo are ideal for those that don't want to micromanage their slots. You also need to factor in time spent buying and hauling materials to your factory system and final products from your factory system to your market system.
With T2 ammo I do that twice a month rather than every couple of days for ships or modules.
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.06.03 13:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lana Hellfury Are people really inventing these at a loss?
Yes and to answer the subject, get away from ships... invention's earning me some great ISK.. would be better if those T2 build times weren't so damned long.
You'll maximise your invention profits if you pick up the T2 component BPOs and also manufacture your own T2 comps... even with a 0ML print you'll still be producing them for a good deal under market prices.
AE's T1 BPC Store - Rigs, Ammo, Modules and Ships |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.06.03 14:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Callista Omenswarm invention's earning me some great ISK.. would be better if those T2 build times weren't so damned long.
Actually you have to think of the effect of that. If they halved the time to build, the supply could double. If the supply doubled, demand wouldn't change, so the price you could sell for would drop, you actually would end up making less profit. The more complicated and drawn out the building process is, the more profit there is in it.
Making things difficult = making things profitable.
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Marauder EG
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Posted - 2009.06.04 00:21:00 -
[20]
I make around 170,000 per hour per manufactoring slot from Invention+Manufactoring of T2 components (more then 1*** per month). Not sure is it high profit or not, but it involves almost no time to make it. Never placed buy/sell orders, they are a waste of time with all these 0.01 isk wars and I am lazy.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.06.04 09:58:00 -
[21]
Some ships are easy to make a modest profit on some are impossible to make any profit on.
In all cases high skills matter.
Which are good and which are bad can not be predicted you have to do market research.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Halvus
Minmatar Wolfington Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.04 11:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Callista Omenswarm
Originally by: Lana Hellfury Are people really inventing these at a loss?
You'll maximise your invention profits if you pick up the T2 component BPOs and also manufacture your own T2 comps... even with a 0ML print you'll still be producing them for a good deal under market prices.
This is true. In fact I've come to realise that it is more profitable to manufacture and sell the T2 components, and leave the ship production to others. As an example, I recently invented and manufactured some Zealots, making 20M isk per ship. However, 15M isk of this was due to manufacturing my own T2 components from materials bought from sell orders.
Do the math and focus on the most profitable part of the chain.
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