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Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 02:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 28/04/2009 02:59:38 The current version of EMMA remains 1.3, you can find more info here. =========================================== DOWNLOAD You can currently download EMMA from Eve Files here. PURCHASING & TRIAL EMMA provides a free 15 day trial when you install the software. This allows you to ensure that it works on your system and get a feel for whether it fits your needs. If you feel that it does, the program provides details on how you can purchase a license to continue usage indefinitely. License purchases are perpetual, you will receive updates for free. License costs are currently 100m isk per license. Your purchase of EMMA provides funds which are then allocated to developers who work to make EMMA better and continue to provide updates for all users of the software. Once you send your funds to the EMMA corporation as described in the software information, we will work to provide you with a license key within 24 hrs. Please be aware that this is not our full time job, and as such license key delivery could take longer in rare cases. ISSUES & SUPPORT In order to log issues related to EMMA, you can go to the google code page for EMMA here. You can also discuss issues which you require assistance with in this thread. We hope to add content to the wiki on the google code page in order to assist users with using the application over time. QUESTIONS? COMMENTS? Contact Maestro Del'Tirith in game or feel free to comment in this thread. We hope to provide a discussion group through google soon as well. ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 02:53:00 - [2] UPDATES =========================================== NEW MANAGEMENT As of the posting of this thread, EMMA is now managed primarily by Maestro Del'Tirith. Ambo, the original author of EMMA, continues to contribute where possible and continues to be part of the project. Unfortunately real life obligations have led to a need to pass primary maintenance responsibilities on to a new individual. As discussed previously in the Market Discussion forum, EMMA is still planned to be used as the focus of a new IPO within EVE. Details will be provided in the future. NEW ISSUE TRACKING & REPOSITORY EMMA previously resided on SourceForge. Unfortunately this is no longer possible, and EMMA has now been moved to Google Code under the MIT License. You can find details of the license on the Google Code project website. The project site is here. Please note that this is 'under construction' and we are still attempting to get some access to the old issues list etc...more details to follow and additional updates as we are able to bring back items like the FAQ etc which were destroyed in the loss of SourceForge access. We also are not currently hosting the download at Google Code - we will be soon, in the meantime please refer to Eve Files. ROADMAP EMMA 1.4 - a stability release is planned which will include bug fixes as well as more in depth testing and necessary modifications for better support on Windows Vista. This release will be the continuation of the current branch of EMMA. Current license funds will be allocated to this development and to payments toward the original software creator. IPO - once the stability release is complete, an IPO will be made available for investors via the Market Discussion forum. More details are to be forthcoming. EMMA 1.x - additional stability and small enhancement releases are expected to culminate the 1.x line EMMA 2.0 - current plans are to branch out product functionality along a parallel 2.0 branch, which will include 1.x fixes as well as significant new features both requested by outside investors and in support of expanding the EMMA customer base into industrial avenues, either through the EMMA program itself or as an add-on that provides additional features. More details to follow. NEED HELP?? As we transition to our new home on Google Code we have unfortunately lost a great deal of investment in threads, FAQ etc on sourceforge. We hope to bring this information back as well as additional details in the coming months, but in the mean time we do have a gap in knowledge due to this unfortunate event. During this time, please feel free to post in this thread with questions/issues or contact Maestro Del'Tirith in game. We will be announcing additional avenues for communication in the coming weeks. ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 02:53:00 - [3] Edited by: Maestro Del''Tirith on 28/04/2009 02:55:23 FAQ =========================================== This post and the next is reserved for Q&A of typical issues/questions so that users can find answers to typical questions in the future without having to thread scroll. ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 02:54:00 - [4] Reserved ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 03:27:00 - [5] Reserved ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Helel Lightbringer Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.28 03:31:00 - [6] I'm not 100% sure that EMMA is a tool I want to use. I'm not fully clear on what it does. I'm not asking for an explanation because I'm sure over the generous 15-day trial period I'll sort that out. I do have a question about the 100M ISK to own a license of EMMA. I run 3 accounts on 2 computers. Would I have to pay 100M, 200M (for 2 computers), or 300M (for 3 accounts) to run EMMA with my setup? ***** "It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." -- Winston Churchill
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.28 03:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Helel Lightbringer I'm not 100% sure that EMMA is a tool I want to use. I'm not fully clear on what it does. I'm not asking for an explanation because I'm sure over the generous 15-day trial period I'll sort that out. I do have a question about the 100M ISK to own a license of EMMA. I run 3 accounts on 2 computers. Would I have to pay 100M, 200M (for 2 computers), or 300M (for 3 accounts) to run EMMA with my setup? Assuming nothing has changed with the fee structure. 100m lisc covers as many installs and as many accounts as you want.
Helel Lightbringer Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.28 06:18:00 - [8] Thanks. I think I'll have to give this a spin once my trading alt is ready to rumble. ***** "It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." -- Winston Churchill
Frenzei Gallente Fortuna inc. Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.04.28 07:04:00 - [9] It's great to know that EMMA is still in the hands of a most capable person. Good luck with EMMA, Del'Tirith! And, is there any chance of getting graphs introduced? Lone Wolf
Ambo EMMA Test Corp	Posted - 2009.04.28 08:26:00 - [10] Just like to thank Maestro for stepping up and taking over this project. It's great to see it in good hands and I'm sure the software will continue to improve under his guidance. On the subject of graphs, there has been a third party component in the package for some time that allows graphs to be added without too much difficulty, I just never got around to using it. I'll leave it to Maestro to say if/what/when graphs will happen though. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Kalrand	Posted - 2009.04.28 11:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith EMMA provides a free 15 day trial when you install the software. This allows you to ensure that it works on your system and get a feel for whether it fits your needs. If you feel that it does, the program provides details on how you can purchase a license to continue usage indefinitely. then later Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith under the MIT License. uh... you might want to double check that...
Hel O'Ween Academy of Truth	Posted - 2009.04.28 12:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith EMMA provides a free 15 day trial when you install the software. This allows you to ensure that it works on your system and get a feel for whether it fits your needs. If you feel that it does, the program provides details on how you can purchase a license to continue usage indefinitely. then later Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith under the MIT License. uh... you might want to double check that... I know what you're trying to say. Well, I see it this way: you pay (100 mil ISK) for the service that they provide a compiled executable. Whereas the MIT license is applied to the EMMA source (which is available on Google code for everybody) and therefore you could compile your own EMMA from that source, saving you the 100 mil ISK. Nonetheless this poses a good question: How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? This would make for a nice Ask Slashdot question, I guess. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Lost Hamster Hamster Holding Corp	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Hel O'Ween [ Well, I see it this way: you pay (100 mil ISK) for the service that they provide a compiled executable. Whereas the MIT license is applied to the EMMA source (which is available on Google code for everybody) and therefore you could compile your own EMMA from that source, saving you the 100 mil ISK. Nonetheless this poses a good question: How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? This would make for a nice Ask Slashdot question, I guess. Actually it's not that simple, currently, you can not use the program over 15 days, as it requires a license. But yes, you can compile the code yourself. And yes, you could re-write the code to exclude the license stuff /or manually reset the trial counter/, and re-compile it for you. But that requires that you know how to program.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:21:00 - [14] Originally by: Lost Hamster Originally by: Hel O'Ween [ Well, I see it this way: you pay (100 mil ISK) for the service that they provide a compiled executable. Whereas the MIT license is applied to the EMMA source (which is available on Google code for everybody) and therefore you could compile your own EMMA from that source, saving you the 100 mil ISK. Nonetheless this poses a good question: How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? This would make for a nice Ask Slashdot question, I guess. Actually it's not that simple, currently, you can not use the program over 15 days, as it requires a license. But yes, you can compile the code yourself. And yes, you could re-write the code to exclude the license stuff /or manually reset the trial counter/, and re-compile it for you. But that requires that you know how to program. hehe cracking emma would be to low imo, even for an evil hacker! Quote: The SCC-LOUNGE is now offering Secure Commerce Services @ www.scc-lounge.wordpress.com
Kalrand	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Lost Hamster Actually it's not that simple, currently, you can not use the program over 15 days, as it requires a license. But yes, you can compile the code yourself. And yes, you could re-write the code to exclude the license stuff /or manually reset the trial counter/, and re-compile it for you. But that requires that you know how to program. I'm sure the MIT license explicitly grants the user the right to use the software free of charge. LINK You should switch the project's license.
Spacemar Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Hel O'Ween Nonetheless this poses a good question: How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? This would make for a nice Ask Slashdot question, I guess. Originally by: Ambo, EMMA original post http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=936258&page=26 As for the shareware business model, I guess that's because I was getting in-game money from people for it. However, it's well established that legally, all in-game items, cash, etc are the property of the company running the game. Therefore I believe this would be classed as freeware instead of shareware. My opinion: To pay game currency you have to play the game, to play the game you have to pay a subscription, so it's not free as you have to pay real money to play. So that's against the OSS license. Sourceforge was right to remove the project... It's better you check a new license type to avoid new problems.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Kalrand The MIT license explicitly grants the user [permission] to use the software free of charge. You should switch the project's license. There's no need to change the license. It grants permission to use the software, but it doesn't stipulate that the software must do anything in particular. The software still works after 15 days when it's not registered: it checks the registration and if that's expired, it shuts down (or whatever), which is exactly what it was designed to do.
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:51:00 - [18] Originally by: Ji Sama hehe cracking emma would be to low imo, even for an evil hacker! Actually someone tried doing so and posted for sale hacked EMMA licenses on this very forum. CCP was kind enough to wipe the post clean when I reported it and Chribba was equally as kind about deleting the post from Eve Search as well. (See what a few emails/reportings can accomplish) I'm not going to get into the validity or applicability of the license(ing) method chosen. Simple enough, Ambo busted his buttocks to put EMMA together so that people can make more isk themselves. Nothing wrong with sharing some of that isk back to him. Only cheap ass whiny *****es are complaining about the licensing and fees. (And I am noting down names for any future reference)
HawkBlade Minmatar The Higher Standard Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Spacemar My opinion: To pay game currency you have to play the game, to play the game you have to pay a subscription, so it's not free as you have to pay real money to play. So that's against the OSS license. Sourceforge was right to remove the project... It's better you check a new license type to avoid new problems. To use Sourceforge you have to have the internet and a computer. Thus the price you pay for your computer and, if applicable, fees paid to your ISP means that Sourceforge is, by extension, not free. Should we have Sourceforge delist itself? (Logical moronacy makes my teeth ache.)
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Spacemar Originally by: Hel O'Ween How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? To pay game currency you have to play the game, to play the game you have to pay a subscription, so it's not free as you have to pay real money to play. So that's against the OSS license. Sourceforge was right to remove the project. Although many do indeed choose to pay real money for EVE accounts, that doesn't mean it's the only way to activate an account. A third party transacting with CCP to inject some more game time into the game database does not involve me paying any real money to CCP, and indirect payments don't interfere with free software licensing (e.g., I pay my ISP for internet access, but that doesn't mean I paid for PuTTY).
Spacemar Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:11:00 - [21] But you have to agree that the STANDARD way to have ISK is paying a EVE account. Don't take me wrong, i already have that OSS license problem before, if you release something to public you have to make it full accessible for all that can use your software, i.e all the EVE community. Any restriction in your software make Stallman cry Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Spacemar Originally by: Hel O'Ween How do all of those OSS licenses deal with game currency? To pay game currency you have to play the game, to play the game you have to pay a subscription, so it's not free as you have to pay real money to play. So that's against the OSS license. Sourceforge was right to remove the project. Although many do indeed choose to pay real money for EVE accounts, that doesn't mean it's the only way to activate an account. A third party transacting with CCP to inject some more game time into the game database does not involve me paying any real money to CCP, and indirect payments don't interfere with free software licensing (e.g., I pay my ISP for internet access, but that doesn't mean I paid for PuTTY).
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Kalrand The MIT license explicitly grants the user [permission] to use the software free of charge. You should switch the project's license. There's no need to change the license. It grants permission to use the software, but it doesn't stipulate that the software must do anything in particular. The software still works after 15 days when it's not registered: it checks the registration and if that's expired, it shuts down (or whatever), which is exactly what it was designed to do. All shareware works on that basis. Do you think shareware explicitly grants the user [permission] to use the software free of charge? I think not. EVE Knowledge
Spacemar Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:46:00 - [23] Shareware are closed-source applications, the owner can do what he wants. In sourceforge EMMA was under GLP, were no restriction was allowed. I suggest the project managers look about a dual-licensing model Wikipedia. I think that cover the trial/open-source version of EMMA. I know that conversation is boring, but you have to be careful when chosing what license to use, to avoid future problems. If your license is to "liberal" soon someone can grab your code, change it and resell, all under the law =/ a true intellectual property PVP... Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Kalrand The MIT license explicitly grants the user [permission] to use the software free of charge. You should switch the project's license. There's no need to change the license. It grants permission to use the software, but it doesn't stipulate that the software must do anything in particular. The software still works after 15 days when it's not registered: it checks the registration and if that's expired, it shuts down (or whatever), which is exactly what it was designed to do. All shareware works on that basis. Do you think shareware explicitly grants the user [permission] to use the software free of charge? I think not.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Spacemar But you have to agree that the standard way to have ISK is paying a EVE account. The crux isn't whether or not payment is 'standard', but whether or not it is required; and the bottom line is that it is not required that you pay CCP any real money to keep your EVE account(s) active. And while the software is probably of most use to those who have EVE accounts, again, it is not a requirement of using the software that you have an account. Originally by: Spacemar If you release something to public you have to make it full accessible for all that can use your software, i.e all the EVE community. There are plenty of different definitions of 'releasing something to the public', many of which are not 'anyone can do anything with it with no restrictions'. That's why there are so many different licenses that are considered relatively 'free/libre' or OSI-compliant. And keep in mind the very nature of licenses: they apply to the the users of the software. To over simplify, the MIT license says that users can do whatever they want with the software... it doesn't require that the author or copyright holder make the software useable (or impose other duties on the author or copyright holder).
Kalrand	Posted - 2009.04.28 17:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Thoraemond it doesn't require that the author or copyright holder make the software useable (or impose other duties on the author or copyright holder). The MIT license explicitly allows use. Its the first thing the license grants. It's in the first sentence.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.04.28 17:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Thoraemond [The MIT license] doesn't require that the author or copyright holder make the software useable (or impose other duties on the author or copyright holder). The MIT license explicitly allows use. Its the first thing the license grants. It's in the first sentence. You are right about the words, but not their meaning: the terms of the license apply to the licensee, here the user: Originally by: MIT License Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software [...] to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software. This term in the license means that the user is permitted to use the software. It does not warrant that the user can use the software in particular ways. Such a warranty would be absurd in most software licenses because there are so many ways in which a user might not be able to use the software. Perhaps this other part of the license will help make this point more clearly: Originally by: MIT License The software is provided "as is", without warranty of any kind, express or implied, including but not limited to the warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and noninfringement.
Kalrand	Posted - 2009.04.28 17:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Thoraemond Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Thoraemond [The MIT license] doesn't require that the author or copyright holder make the software useable (or impose other duties on the author or copyright holder). The MIT license explicitly allows use. Its the first thing the license grants. It's in the first sentence. You are right about the words, but not their meaning: the terms of the license apply to the licensee, here the user: Originally by: MIT License Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software [...] to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software. This term in the license means that the user is permitted to use the software. It does not warrant that the user can use the software in particular ways. Such a warranty would be absurd in most software licenses because there are so many ways in which a user might not be able to use the software. Perhaps this other part of the license will help make this point more clearly: Originally by: MIT License The software is provided "as is", without warranty of any kind, express or implied, including but not limited to the warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and noninfringement. The software is not free software. It may be open source, but it is not free. Wordsmith all you want, but there is no way a "free for 15 days, then you have to buy a license!" clause fits in with the MIT license. The authors should strip the MIT license from their software, show the source code to the world, but continue to hold copyright on the program. There is nothing stopping me right now from forking the code and releasing "EMMA: GoonFleet Edition" upon the world.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.04.28 18:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Kalrand There is nothing stopping me right now from forking the code and releasing "EMMA: GoonFleet Edition" upon the world. Is that the one that eats my baby, blows my computer up, and then wipes itself clean on my curtains?
Kalrand	Posted - 2009.04.28 18:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Kalrand There is nothing stopping me right now from forking the code and releasing "EMMA: GoonFleet Edition" upon the world. Is that the one that eats my baby, blows my computer up, and then wipes itself clean on my curtains? No. It's the one where you send isk to "pay for a license", but instead the author just mocks you for the rest of the evening.
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration	Posted - 2009.04.28 18:32:00 - [30] The license has been adjusted. That said, if you have questions or concerns regarding the license I ask that you address them directly to myself in game via the EVE mail system. I will neither respond to nor continue discussion of license concerns or issues in this thread - it is frankly just cluttering up what would otherwise be a valid thread for individuals using or intending to use the software from having a useful resource. Attempted legal discussions by this audience is rather irrelevant, and I will also note that the issue with source forge was due to their own policies and not based on any particulars of the license model itself. Almost all open source licenses provide for individuals, whether the initial author or others, to gain from the sale, support and maintenance of open source software. Open source and free are not the same thing, though it is clear that many individuals seem to confuse the two. When purchasing the key for the software, you are contributing to the continued development of the project, and I would hope that you find the tool worthy and useful to a degree that encourages you to adhere to that request. I believe this program adds a great deal of value for many members of the EVE community, and I hope to continue the investment that has been made to date in improving this software. I will note that various other tools that in the past have been of great use to EVE players have since faded away to uselessness due to not having a similar isk based model. Incidentally, I am also open to any individuals who would be interested in assisting with contributions to the software, and look forward to hearing from anyone willing to join the team. ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread

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