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EVEHelpisSeriousBusiness
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Posted - 2009.04.23 12:18:00 -
[31]
Originally by: SencneS I can't think of any way for people to exploit it other then maybe ISK laundering..
This is pretty much the reason the current system is in place.
Also, to everyone who says delaying buy price visibility would stop 0.01 games - how do you propose to stop people from just opening the sell window to check the current price? Or do you intend to only tell sellers what they're getting after the sale occurs? Thinnnnnnnnnnk before you poast this garbage.
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Dmitryilyin
Gallente Risky eXplosion Death or Glory
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Posted - 2009.04.23 12:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Dmitryilyin on 23/04/2009 12:56:57 Edited by: Dmitryilyin on 23/04/2009 12:56:42 Wait What are you talking about?
You can choose from which sell order to buy. "View market details" and choose from list above. You can sort buy price, amount, location.
If you want to know who is selling/buying just buy/sell one unit and look for his name in transactions. Of cause i would prefer to have Seller/buyer name column instead of this.
Of cause any reasonable person will buy from cheapest sell order.
Do NEVER buy items using "Buy this item" use "View market details" choose sell order, right click, buy this.
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R34PER
Esto Perpetua Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.04.23 13:48:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dmitryilyin Edited by: Dmitryilyin on 23/04/2009 12:56:57 Edited by: Dmitryilyin on 23/04/2009 12:56:42 Wait What are you talking about?
You can choose from which sell order to buy. "View market details" and choose from list above. You can sort buy price, amount, location.
If you want to know who is selling/buying just buy/sell one unit and look for his name in transactions. Of cause i would prefer to have Seller/buyer name column instead of this.
Of cause any reasonable person will buy from cheapest sell order.
Do NEVER buy items using "Buy this item" use "View market details" choose sell order, right click, buy this.
Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to this thread, you could start by actually reading previous posts.
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Lunatic Shakhid
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Posted - 2009.04.23 14:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: R34PER Edited by: R34PER on 21/04/2009 21:25:52
Which is, EVE doesn't have a truly free market.
What on earth is the logic behind this: I am ****ed off by people who undercut by 0.01 ISK. So out of my good will, I buy from a guy that offers his wares at a round price. HOWEVER, behind my back the game buys the item from the guy offering it for lowest price, but charges me for the higher priced item I chose. WHAAAT?
The market browser is not the market. It is, in essence, a limit ordering system. The sell orders you see should be thought as having been placed into the hands of a broker with the instructions to sell these items for at least this price. If some fool comes along and wants to pay more (maybe he secretly admires people who use whole numbers, is confused by decimals, or perhaps even is registering a vain protest against single-pip price adjusters) then of course the broker would accept the higher offer.
The game is not "buying them behind your back". It is doing what a broker does. In-game the extra money you paid above the asking price is passed on to the seller, in RL the broker - or rather the broker's employer - would pocket the difference and lie to the seller that the goods had been sold at the required order price.
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SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2009.04.23 14:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: EVEHel****eriousBusiness
Originally by: SencneS I can't think of any way for people to exploit it other then maybe ISK laundering..
This is pretty much the reason the current system is in place.
Also, to everyone who says delaying buy price visibility would stop 0.01 games - how do you propose to stop people from just opening the sell window to check the current price? Or do you intend to only tell sellers what they're getting after the sale occurs? Thinnnnnnnnnnk before you poast this garbage.
You should take your own advice there :)
Any price change to any order, buy/sell whatever, there is a 5 minute lock time anyway, so just make it a 5 minute change time as well.
If you have something on sale for 100.01 ISK, and you change it to 99.99, because someone undercut you to 100.00. Your price doesn't take effect until your lock timer is up. Meaning people can click on the order and say "BUY" and they will be paying 100.01 ISK even though you recently changed it to 99.99.
The combination of unable to change orders every 20 seconds along with the fact the order doesn't update until the lock is completed would pretty much crush 0.01 wars. The possible scenarios it creates by delaying the order be updated makes price wars so much more difficult. It turns away from a visual "Wait out the clock" war, to a "OK I see someone is competing with me, is he going to drop by 0.01 or is he going to think I am going to beat him and go 0.03 off the price." AKA Game Theory.
With a delay people are going to be sick of messing around with piddly numbers and just price to sell, and not bother updating. This would probably help Jita out as well, as there will not be hundred of people updating orders by 0.01 every minutes. However it also doesn't out right STOP it from happening. Even with the delay you WILL still get people 0.01 undercutting you, the only difference is, if two people go to market wars over it, it'll be more difficult for both them of.
The idea is not to stop or remove 0.01 price wars, but just make it more difficult.
Amarr for Life |
ReallyDeadKenny
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.04.23 14:46:00 -
[36]
I completelly fail to see what is wrong with .01 isk wars. Yes, its annoying to see you have been undercut sometimes, but all that means is you gotta right click, scroll down two clicks, and hit ok. .01 isk wars reward people who put time into trading.
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Dzil
Caldari Tritanium Science and Research
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Posted - 2009.04.23 14:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kodelka K Edited by: Kodelka K on 23/04/2009 07:38:13 You hardcore market people are funny, "The Market will crush you! Puny worm!"
I don't care at all about the minutia of EvE's imaginary economy. I'm just bothered that the game has been providing me the illusion of choice but not actually giving me any choice. I'd agree with Reaper's suggestion from further up. If I can only buy the from the lowest order at each station then only show me the lowest order, move the other orders into market history.
You don't have to become a market guru to enjoy EVE. But if you listen - the market gurus are explaining why things are the way they are today. They may also cover where the tutorials left gaps ;)
Free choice on orders incents traders to spam the market with small orders, and scam orders (999mil for tritanium type stuff), because there is still a chance your stuff will move. With the lowest sell wins system, the 999 mil trit guy is wasting his time - even if someone is dumb enough to buy that trit, someone else gets rich.
On making non-lowest orders invisible, I think this would greatly detract from a trader's ability to calculate how much it would cost to acquire a bulk of a product, when they wanted to purchase more than the quantity in the lowest order. This would actually make the penny isk game worse in my opinion - not only would your order sell before your competitor, you completely remove visibility to your competitors order when you undercut him.
In summary - I'm all for new ideas - but be open to criticism, and ready to understand that there may be a really good reason things are the way they are.
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Jaelyn Keris
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.04.23 17:04:00 -
[38]
The market has a broker that acts as escrow. If you want direct trading get into the contracts market. Also, I talk a lot. |
Katyr
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Posted - 2009.04.23 19:35:00 -
[39]
The reason people have to undercut each other is because supply is higher then demand, so they play undercutting chicken until the item drops to a reasonable price or they stop manufacturing it.
If the seller doesnt like constantly changing the price they can undercut by bigger amounts to kill the competition.
What was the problem again? I think youre complaining the market is a little too free.
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Maxwell Terallis
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Posted - 2009.04.23 19:40:00 -
[40]
Quote:
It doesn't work like that, because you're never the only seller. Besides I would surely take the 10k offer, and ignore the 9999,78.. kind of orders. My ingame ethics may look stupid, but I still despise the idea of supporting those who wage the 0.01 isk wars. Hell, they could atleast undercut by 1 isk instead of 0.01.
I'm saying if CCP adopted your idea, all I would have to do is split up my sell orders and make it look like I was more than one person undercutting an "honest" producer. I could make 10 orders if I wanted to, all of them mine, and you wouldn't know.
Quote:
When you hover the mouse over a sell order you read from the tooltip who is behind that order.
No, it doesn't. When you over over a sell order, it tells you the jumps, the price, the quantity, the location, and the duration. The only way you can find out the seller of a sell order is buy purchasing an item from it.
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Allwix
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Posted - 2009.04.23 21:36:00 -
[41]
It is really very similar to real-world markets. There may be a multitude of sell and buy orders at various prices, but the transactions occur between the bid and ask prices. You cannot see all the 'players' in large RL public exchanges either. If you look at a commodity futures market for example, there may be thousands or tens of thousands of outstanding orders, all anonymous, and at many different prices.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2009.04.24 05:46:00 -
[42]
The OP should indeed 'get into trading' so that he can educate himself on the subject and not look like such a fool posting about something he knows nothing about.
Some words of advice: 1. If you're taking the 0.01 undercut personally you're doing it wrong, and while you're chucking a tanty in here all your other orders have been 0.01'ed :) 2. The 0.01 is a good thing, for veteran traders (freedom to move about in the market), for newbie traders (0.01 aids more active players ie. newbies), for players (newbie traders locked out of the market by established players = higher prices), and your attempts to undermine it are bad for the game. You want to be painted the white knight, but you're actually just a player who would hurt the game through ignorance. 3. Market efficiency is the goal of a market (low prices for the consumer), not 'good will' or buyer/seller 'choice'. The 'free' in free market is referring to no artificially imposed rules that reduce market efficiency, not freedom of choice, or freedom of information.
A brief and very basic explanation of 0.01: when someone 0.01's you they are not doing their best impression of Dr Evil on their end of the market screen, they're communicating with you, saying 'I am an active trader who is available to play the 0.01 game, and I'm happy for you to 0.01 me back at any time'; as opposed to someone who undercuts/outbids by a large amount, they're saying 'I am not an active trader and am willing to sacrifice profit for less time in front of the trade window and/or I need to rid myself of stock faster'. Being upset by 0.01's is pointless, indicates ignorance of trade mechanics and probably points to that players failure to succeed at the profession.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.04.24 08:06:00 -
[43]
Originally by: R34PER ...some of us don't want to be forced to buy whatever is cheapest...
Then make a private deal with the seller, okay? Shouldn't be that difficult.
The market works absolutely as intented and is perfectly fine the way it is.
BTW: wts overpriced stuff
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.04.24 08:08:00 -
[44]
Originally by: R34PER ...some of us don't want to be forced to buy whatever is cheapest...
Then make a private deal with the seller, okay? Shouldn't be that difficult.
The market works absolutely as intented and is perfectly fine the way it is.
BTW: wts overpriced stuff
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R34PER
Esto Perpetua Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.04.24 16:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: R34PER on 24/04/2009 16:40:02
Unfortunately that ruins the purpose of the whole thing, I want to buy exactly what I want from the market and not by a private contract or trade.
I mean, that's like me saying "Ooh you could just spam your contracts and have your isk wars there, shouldn't be that difficult?". :|
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Leon Caedo
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Posted - 2009.04.24 21:38:00 -
[46]
My 2c:
Don't give us the illusion that we have a choice on who we buy from. If we only really have the option to buy from one person, why the hell does it show us all 20 other orders which we can't actually buy from?!
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Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.24 21:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Leon Caedo My 2c:
Don't give us the illusion that we have a choice on who we buy from. If we only really have the option to buy from one person, why the hell does it show us all 20 other orders which we can't actually buy from?!
The information in the market details screen is probably intended to be useful for seeing price and inventory trends for a product based on location rather than giving anyone a choice of who to buy from.
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HillAnt
Amarr HillAnt Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.25 19:42:00 -
[48]
Edited by: HillAnt on 25/04/2009 19:43:12 I usually undercut by a wide margin (5% or more) and if they keep up in going down in price i do it again a few times until the price is ripe to buy all of their stock out and raise the prices again to a nice and neat profit margin and they cant do **** because they just lost what you bought out. Keep in mind your competitor can do the same so it is safer to sell a small amount with the order you keep pricing down.
Also figure out how much time it takes to produce an item. Some items have very fast response times with which i mean simply: If i buy someone out to raise prices again there are 2 possibilities:
the first he will obtain lots and lots more to undercut me with again before i resell his goods at a higher price. This is very possible if the manufacturing time on that item per unit is very low compared to the size of the market.
Lets say you dabling in the bomb (stealth bomber ammo) market, your competitors can produce 3 (!) of them every minute but the best selling bomb only sells about 800 every day. That means your 0.01 isk warrior can easily saturate the bomb market with cheap stuff again in just a 2 hours max at which point your new stock proves to be unprofitable.
If you however choose to monopolize the frequency crystal market. Lets say the most popular small crystal which is usually multifrequency S. If you buy out everyones stock at or near production cost it will take about 10 hours for competitors AT LEAST to respond to your the sudden monopoly onset syndrome that you just infected the MFs market with and that is if they are VERY well organized because as you know it takes a bit to organize the get new MFs'.
about one product learn these statistics (per day): How much one factory slot can produce How much is bought on the market What are the logistics behind the product? Does a days worth of product sales fit in a frigate or does a days worth product fit not even in 10 freighters?
You need 0.1m3 worth of minerals to produce 5m3 MFs which means... (atleast figure this one out yourself)
If you want to monopolize a product: how fast can my competitors respond by tanking the price of my monopoly product? It takes no genius to know that once you have a monopoly everyone wants a piece. There is a boom and there is a bust. Figure out when the time is to give your monopoly up or if the competition takes a lot of time to respond to refresh it by joining the bidding wars and buying everyone out again when the price is properly tanked. Even a monopoly that is often refreshed can wear out as competitors learn to respond.
Nothing is forever. There is boom and there is bust. Everyone is born and everyone dies. Everything is changing constantly. The only constant is change. If you do are stagnant you will disappear because stagnancy (not changing) is the scientific definition of nothing. This too, will change. You are born naked and you will die barren. What you do inbetween matters.
Live life truly and honestly so you will be torn and broken many places and yell LIFE WAS A ROLLERCOASTER AND I WAS ON IT. The greatest loss in life is what dies in you while you live.
The only limit is your mentality. --- HillAnt corp website for entrepeneurs |
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