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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Louis deGuerre
Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia
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Posted - 2009.04.09 12:37:00 -
[31]
Damn, too late to post the svn blame joke
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Grismar
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2009.04.09 12:42:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Grismar on 09/04/2009 12:43:26 Nice to see a dev blog instead of marketing and hype. I'm continually impressed by the scale of the EVE universe and the way it just keeps going and growing, even though it's serving well over 20x the people at a time it did when I first signed up.
I'm also sure that the "one line of code" that needed fixing was innocent enough by itself, but only caused a problem in the particular context it was living in. This is exactly why questions like "who wrote that line" are generally inconsequential. I understand the euphoria the blog clearly expresses because I know how hard it is to find a line that has nothing wrong with it in itself, but causes a problem in the bigger picture.
Keep up the good work and keep hiring people that get all giddy and talkative when they write good code or fix bad code and I'm sure EVE will endure.
Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator |
Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
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Posted - 2009.04.09 13:35:00 -
[33]
"it was running through the CPython interpreter"
That still gives me the shivers. How many people could probably be in Jita if Eve was written in C/C++ or even .Net or Java? 15000? 30000? _________________________ EveAI.Live - The EVE-Online API/class library for .Net, C# and VB.Net |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Amida Ta "it was running through the CPython interpreter"
That still gives me the shivers. How many people could probably be in Jita if Eve was written in C/C++ or even .Net or Java? 15000? 30000?
I have a server written in assembler that can handle 100.000 simultaneous connections. It accepts the connection and then sends keep-alives.
Very fast, very bandwidth efficient.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.09 14:53:00 -
[35]
But could that handle 100k people selling, buying, moving 1,000 different item's from a can to hangar, exiting, leaving, changing nodes? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Backdaft
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Posted - 2009.04.09 17:12:00 -
[36]
Mara, you're right Extreme programming morning meetings are only suppose to be 15 mins -no matter what. But that only works up until you have a manager in the room. Managers can't do anything in 15 minutes. lol I'm thinking there's another joke in there somewhere...something like "And that's what the manager's wife said too!" lol.
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Backdaft
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Posted - 2009.04.09 17:26:00 -
[37]
Amida, I'm not familiar with cPython but I do know many higher level languages compile down into C first. Many are highly efficient at this and I suspect any slow downs are minimal -probably less than 5% if I had to guess.
Java is designed to run on all computers by compiling down to a generic bytecode, so until computers have processors that can run the bytecode in hardware, I'd guess Java would be slightly slower. And .Net is all about libraries and reusable code, so if you're not careful you end up with a massive executable, and I suspect some of those libraries can bog you down really bad -so much slower.
In the end, much of it boils down to how efficient and how optimized the language's compiler is. cPython has been around awhile so it's probably pretty good -especially with the guys at ccp pushing that stackless technology forward.
And assembly always wins, although I don't see many people programming in that anymore. The industry moving to O-O, reusable code seems to have killed it. I've not used CUDA, but if assembly is alive anywhere it's probably running on graphics processors, yes? Is CUDA glorified assembly? Or something more thats good enough to supplant assembly even there?
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Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
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Posted - 2009.04.09 20:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Backdaft Amida, I'm not familiar with cPython but I do know many higher level languages compile down into C first. Many are highly efficient at this and I suspect any slow downs are minimal -probably less than 5% if I had to guess.
5% would not even be worth to mention. However cPython is WAY slower than that. Compared to C/C++ (e.g. Intel or GCC) cPython can easily be 100fold slower for computationally-heavy tasks. In extreme cases even much more than that. As a rule of thumb in general it will be around 10times slower (that is 1000%).
Originally by: Backdaft
Java is designed to run on all computers by compiling down to a generic bytecode, so until computers have processors that can run the bytecode in hardware, I'd guess Java would be slightly slower. And .Net is all about libraries and reusable code, so if you're not careful you end up with a massive executable, and I suspect some of those libraries can bog you down really bad -so much slower.
Java and .Net are both in the same ballpark. Sometimes they are even faster than C, but as a general rule of thumb you can assume that they are about 30% slower.
Originally by: Backdaft
And assembly always wins
Sure, but the difference between hand-tuned assembly and e.g. C++/.Net isn't that big any more. _________________________ EveAI.Live - The EVE-Online API/class library for .Net, C# and VB.Net |
Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.09 20:55:00 -
[39]
Maybe you could deploy one of your teams to the forums. They've been dog slow for weeks now. ---- Train more. Whine less.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.04.10 10:23:00 -
[40]
Werd. ----------
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.04.11 03:44:00 -
[41]
Bud Light presents: Real men of genius (Real men of genius) Today we salute you Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger (Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger) You've given us the real New Eden dream, a jita with a ping of less than 3 seconds (less than 3000 milliseconds). With your assistance Jita re-sellers can now buy and re-sell goods at 20% higher prices faster than ever before (Zealots for 150 millions). Always making sure that trading takes place in one system, and one system only (Never go outside The Fooooorge!) So, crack open an ice-cold bud light you icelandic code-crusader, you deserve it (Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger). Bud light beer, anheuser-busch, St.Louis Missouri.
P.S: No critique intended. Just a bit of fun. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Trustworthy Joe
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Posted - 2009.04.11 17:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Bud Light presents: Real men of genius (Real men of genius) Today we salute you Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger (Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger) You've given us the real New Eden dream, a jita with a ping of less than 3 seconds (less than 3000 milliseconds). With your assistance Jita re-sellers can now buy and re-sell goods at 20% higher prices faster than ever before (Zealots for 150 millions). Always making sure that trading takes place in one system, and one system only (Never go outside The Fooooorge!) So, crack open an ice-cold bud light you icelandic code-crusader, you deserve it (Mr.Jita-live-code-debugger). Bud light beer, anheuser-busch, St.Louis Missouri.
P.S: No critique intended. Just a bit of fun.
i lol'd hard. very nice work sir!
also, GJ CCP _______________________
with a name as trustworthy as mine, i cant POSSIBLY be an alt
Originally by: CCP Navigator I locked this thread BECAUSE OF FALCON
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2009.04.12 09:20:00 -
[43]
Great Dev blog!
Happy Easter to you all!
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL |
Mr Goldfish
Ceptacemia
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Posted - 2009.04.14 08:08:00 -
[44]
Kudos to the CCP team for finding the problem and also posting this type of blog. Being a IT-consultant myself give me great satisfaction to read them as it's these types of things I'm facing every day. Goldie |
Pilk
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.04.16 12:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: Backdaft Amida, I'm not familiar with cPython but I do know many higher level languages compile down into C first. Many are highly efficient at this and I suspect any slow downs are minimal -probably less than 5% if I had to guess.
5% would not even be worth to mention. However cPython is WAY slower than that. Compared to C/C++ (e.g. Intel or GCC) cPython can easily be 100fold slower for computationally-heavy tasks. In extreme cases even much more than that. As a rule of thumb in general it will be around 10times slower (that is 1000%).
Originally by: Backdaft
Java is designed to run on all computers by compiling down to a generic bytecode, so until computers have processors that can run the bytecode in hardware, I'd guess Java would be slightly slower. And .Net is all about libraries and reusable code, so if you're not careful you end up with a massive executable, and I suspect some of those libraries can bog you down really bad -so much slower.
Java and .Net are both in the same ballpark. Sometimes they are even faster than C, but as a general rule of thumb you can assume that they are about 30% slower.
Originally by: Backdaft
And assembly always wins
Sure, but the difference between hand-tuned assembly and e.g. C++/.Net isn't that big any more.
You're missing the point, but first I'll address a separate issue--Java compiles to bytecode, yes, but then that bytecodes has been run (since the mid-90's) on a HotSpot-style JVM. That means that, in tight loops, Java's performance exactly equals that of C (which in turn would exactly equal the performance of machine code).
Anyway, it's just as edifying to say, "EVE would run 100,000 times faster on custom silicon instead of generic Intel." While it's doubtless true that some of the tighter code would benefit from being written in a lower-level language, it's an enormous investment of time to retrain dozens of programmers, and not all of them would get it Right (tm). So, let's say you lose 30% of performance by running through CPython. How much do you lose when a novice C programmer implements a terrible sorting algorithm, because unlike in Python, he doesn't have a standard API that includes a good one? How many features do you lose when an expert C programmer spends more time writing bounds-checking code on all his functions than actually providing functionality?
The question isn't whether EVE could be faster if written in a different language, it's whether EVE could: a) exist at all, and b) be better if written in a different language. And given CCP as a backdrop (i.e., not disputing, there are companies out there with the tool- and skillsets already in place that could write an EVE from scratch in C, or SmallTalk, or pure lambda calculus), I think Stackless is the language of EVE going forward.
Now, that said, my understanding is that CCP already looks at tight loops within the game and recodes and recompiles them into PIC that they call from within Python. So they get most of the benefits of a low-level language, at a fraction of the cost.
Honestly, the only thing I would change about CCP's coding environment is to make them understand that an hour of downtime every day is a sign of weakness. Hire four spectacularly-good Stackless programmers and assign them to nothing but cleanup and rewriting duty. Inside of a year, you'll never need to reboot the platform.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID! |
Southern Suzy
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.20 11:16:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zex Maxwell NICE! I cant wait to fly into jita to sell my minerals.
Prices arent good there for selling, try remoter area's that will give ya a lot more isk So wait this is the end of my post allready?
I'm not in multiple alliances to spy! I'm in them so I'll always be on the winning team |
Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
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Posted - 2009.04.20 22:45:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Pilk
Anyway, it's just as edifying to say, "EVE would run 100,000 times faster on custom silicon instead of generic Intel." While it's doubtless true that some of the tighter code would benefit from being written in a lower-level language, it's an enormous investment of time to retrain dozens of programmers, and not all of them would get it Right (tm). So, let's say you lose 30% of performance by running through CPython. How much do you lose when a novice C programmer implements a terrible sorting algorithm, because unlike in Python, he doesn't have a standard API that includes a good one? How many features do you lose when an expert C programmer spends more time writing bounds-checking code on all his functions than actually providing functionality? --P
The point is that if CPython would be 30% slower nobody would care. But it it more likely 1000% slower, in calculation-heavy tasks (fleet fight maybe?) possibly even 10000%. Surely it's a good thing to choose a point where you get good bang for the buck (which means going straight C is likely not the best solution). Howerver do you really think CCP is 10 or even 100times more effective using Python instead of e.g. .Net? I'm VERY sure they are not.
Sure they have the server already written and because of that I doubt that they WILL NOW restart from scratch and also nobody knows IF they really use pure Python on the server (parts of the client are not Python (for performance reasons)) but that still doesn't make the situation any better. _________________________ EveAI.Live - The EVE-Online API/class library for .Net, C# and VB.Net |
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