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Bloodpetal
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:58:00 -
[1]
Intro :
Currently, setting your orbit is a skill requiring juggling windows, right click menus, typing in digits, and acrobatics incomprehensible to those truly trained in the art of elite high speed maneuvering.
All of this is compounded with the fact that avoiding obstacles, stations, asteroids, belts, rocks, ships, and so on is impossible to control with an orbit. Also, with lag it is nearly impossible to ensure a manual orbit on and object and keep a range that allows continued operation of your ship in combat quarters.
Issues :
Very difficult to set custom orbit ranges. Requires right click menus, typing in numbers in a high danger situation, and 2 more key/button strokes to apply.
Inability to set which orbit arc you would like to follow forces high speed ships to collide into stations, belts, and so forth.
Recommendation :
Create an orbit "Tool" which will allow you to set custom range, and orbit arc on a ship quickly. Setting an orbit arc would allow you to pick an orbital path which avoids stations and belts. The tool would represent with a 3d "Circle" which can be twisted with a mouse stroke, and an orbit tool which responds to mouse wheel scroll, or automatically prompts for a meter range, and upon 'enter' will instantly set that orbit. Rather than requiring further intervention.
--
Please seriously consider this, it would mostly be client-side code using existing packet information that would be sent from the custom tool.
Thank you.
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Caldose
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Posted - 2009.04.03 17:34:00 -
[2]
I can somewhat visualize what you're talking about here, but I don't think this would really be much of an improvement on the current orbit system.
The main problem with the number of keystrokes/mouse-clicks necessary to set an orbital distance is the amount of time it eats up during combat.
This kind of system would require you to already have the game camera at a range to be able to see most, if not all of the proposed orbit, which when you're talking about interceptors and setting the orbital distance around a target to 15km is already looking at a diameter of 30km to look at the whole path, 60km to look at a 30km path, 100km to look at a 50km path, etc.
Then you'd have to tweak the path it self, so you'd grab this circle and drag it around until you thought it made sense, but if the target was a moving one, you'd have to constantly adjust this circle to make sure you're not going to be hitting anything. Which means you'd have to also be constantly moving the camera view around to see if the circle was intersecting with any physical bodies.
The moving target would never stay in the same spot long enough to actually be able to set this kind of orbital pattern and you'd be adjusting it so often it might just become ridiculous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see this post came up about 11 minutes after I posted my distance slider suggestion. If you haven't read it, see if it makes sense and comment whether or not you like it.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1041215
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.04.03 17:51:00 -
[3]
What about this then:
When you choose orbit at custom distance today you get the box and have to write a number.
What if instead of that box you get a small window with a miniature of your target in the middle and a circle you change by dragging with the mouse. At the bottom the actual radius is showed. The circle should follow your mouse pointer until you press the button which sets the value and immediately closes the window. While the pointer is outside the window everything works as normal. You can also quickly dismiss the window by right clicking and cancelling the orbit command. The window should appear centered around where the mouse were when you chose the orbit command.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Whitehound on 03/04/2009 21:15:14
These really are two issues: GUI and ship control. I get your idea on the GUI part, but I must admit that I did settle on only using one custom orbit and to make it match the optimal range of my weapons (requiring some tweaking). I now stick with it. Having some more ranges to choose from and an .ini-file to set each would be a great help.
Regarding the ship control have I not yet figured out how to control the orbit plane. I expected it to be as easy as point'n'orbit, but it is not. If it would orbit on a plane parallel to the current flight path, and the orbiting direction matching the ship's current direction, then I am completely with you!
Maybe someone can explain how the game chooses the orbit plane.
--
If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Caldose
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:34:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Caldose on 03/04/2009 21:34:40
I think it's just a calculated trajectory based on your ship's agility and speed, relative to the target. I don't think the orbital path is really ever a set thing, more of a dynamic curve calculated from these often changing values.
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Galvatine
Caldari
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:01:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Bloodpetal
Intro :
Currently, setting your orbit is a skill requiring juggling windows, right click menus, typing in digits, and acrobatics incomprehensible to those truly trained in the art of elite high speed maneuvering.
All of this is compounded with the fact that avoiding obstacles, stations, asteroids, belts, rocks, ships, and so on is impossible to control with an orbit. Also, with lag it is nearly impossible to ensure a manual orbit on and object and keep a range that allows continued operation of your ship in combat quarters.
Issues :
Very difficult to set custom orbit ranges. Requires right click menus, typing in numbers in a high danger situation, and 2 more key/button strokes to apply.
Inability to set which orbit arc you would like to follow forces high speed ships to collide into stations, belts, and so forth.
Recommendation :
Create an orbit "Tool" which will allow you to set custom range, and orbit arc on a ship quickly. Setting an orbit arc would allow you to pick an orbital path which avoids stations and belts. The tool would represent with a 3d "Circle" which can be twisted with a mouse stroke, and an orbit tool which responds to mouse wheel scroll, or automatically prompts for a meter range, and upon 'enter' will instantly set that orbit. Rather than requiring further intervention.
--
Please seriously consider this, it would mostly be client-side code using existing packet information that would be sent from the custom tool.
Thank you.
I sympathise but you would only really need 2 of these. Else you remove pressure as a deciding factor. Bringing pressure to bear is a good way of making people screw up, ergo, dont remove it..its a skill
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.04.04 00:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Galvatine
I sympathise but you would only really need 2 of these. Else you remove pressure as a deciding factor. Bringing pressure to bear is a good way of making people screw up, ergo, dont remove it..its a skill
This is nonsense! Having too many options, or no options at all, can cause just as much pressure.
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If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
Galvatine
Caldari
Dark Materials
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2009.04.04 15:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Galvatine
I sympathise but you would only really need 2 of these. Else you remove pressure as a deciding factor. Bringing pressure to bear is a good way of making people screw up, ergo, dont remove it..its a skill
This is nonsense! Having too many options, or no options at all, can cause just as much pressure.
Then its fine as it is ;)
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.04.04 15:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Galvatine
Then its fine as it is ;)
Not quite, close, but not a bull's eye. Having choices, but none matching the one you need, does not create pressure. Instead, it sucks and all pressure is gone in a single realization, and you stop using it.
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If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
eXeGee
UK1 Zero
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Posted - 2009.04.04 20:44:00 -
[10]
I completely agree we need real customizable orbit (its extremely annoying when you are flying the other direction you would like to and when your ship gets bumps/stuck on rocks), however i dont know what would be the best way to resolve this problem. 3d circle seems to be all right, i'd like to have such tool. Maybe add something like key shortcut (for example ALT), when you press and hold it your current 3d orbit circle appears around ship (something similar to tactical overview), and while holding shortcut key you can move it with your mouse. Maybe like...
Linkage
?
Also, when you RMB click on orbit button, there could be bar (like winamp's seek bar) to adjust your orbit a little bit faster than writing numbers. Smth like this:
Linkage
?
However, current orbit scale seems to be a little bit too big to make such bar acurrate.
______________________________
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.04.04 22:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Daedalus II
What about this then:
When you choose orbit at custom distance today you get the box and have to write a number.
What if instead of that box you get a small window with a miniature of your target in the middle and a circle you change by dragging with the mouse. At the bottom the actual radius is showed. The circle should follow your mouse pointer until you press the button which sets the value and immediately closes the window. While the pointer is outside the window everything works as normal. You can also quickly dismiss the window by right clicking and cancelling the orbit command. The window should appear centered around where the mouse were when you chose the orbit command.
Actually this reminded of the new " ring" that you sometime get when scanning. and also of the adjustable bubble on scan probes. What if for ship orbit when set to custom a ring appeared around the target and this ring was adjustable by holding the shift key and dragging or something along those lines. perhaps left mouse to adjust orbit range and right mouse to adjust the tilt.
Both the degree and size of the orbit would be adjustable all in two quick steps.
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Bloodpetal
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Posted - 2009.04.05 20:01:00 -
[12]
The tool would let you set azimuth and elevation so you could get full 360 degrees of freedom. Then radius of orbit.
The tool wouldn't need to show the whole ship in your view, it would just need to demonstrate the orbit in relation to the surrounding space. You could be zoomed out 200km, the circle would still show you which orbit you're choosing.
In terms of "pressure" it actually adds a bit more "pressure" in terms of setting the orbit properly. Also, you could opt out of setting an orbit... and let EvE pick one as normal without pulling up the orbit tool.
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Alexander Vallen
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Posted - 2009.04.07 17:28:00 -
[13]
This would be incredibly helpful. Cant count the number of time where I set my ship to orbit and it decides to do a full 180 and head off in some crazy orbit. Really a pest if you're a railgunner that rely's on your angle of attack.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari
Lords Of Filth
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Posted - 2009.04.07 18:37:00 -
[14]
I love this idea.
Currently the orbit system is pretty spotty. With manual ship control being a thing mostly of luck it would be nice to have pre-planned maneuvers to execute. This would be like how things would actual function on a space ship. In space you don't fly by manual control really either. You have preplanned algorithms that work in sequence. Like thrust forward 10 seconds, thrust left 3 seconds, rinse and repeat.
It would be nice if we even got hotkeys *gasp* for them. I know eve hates hotkeys but really if you could save 9 maneuvers as numpad 1-9 it would be so nice. Then you could execute these pre-planned movements with a simple click. and the 9 you have hotkeyed would relate to what your ship uses most.
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Bloodpetal
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Posted - 2009.04.08 14:44:00 -
[15]
EvE Navigation could use a bit of a touch up, and this would be a great part of that. I could come up with some other ideas for navigational tools to make somethings easier, and less 'right-click' dependent which causes so much distress.
However, I think this orbit tool would be a good start and work up to a new series of game tools that would put more flexibility in the hands of the player.
I'll try and come up with some sketch-ups when i can.
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Bloodpetal
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Posted - 2009.04.10 14:54:00 -
[16]
Anyone else interested in seeing this happen?
I'm hoping the User Interface team sees this and tries to make it happen...
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.04.10 15:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly
I love this idea.
Currently the orbit system is pretty spotty. With manual ship control being a thing mostly of luck it would be nice to have pre-planned maneuvers to execute. This would be like how things would actual function on a space ship. In space you don't fly by manual control really either. You have preplanned algorithms that work in sequence. Like thrust forward 10 seconds, thrust left 3 seconds, rinse and repeat.
It would be nice if we even got hotkeys *gasp* for them. I know eve hates hotkeys but really if you could save 9 maneuvers as numpad 1-9 it would be so nice. Then you could execute these pre-planned movements with a simple click. and the 9 you have hotkeyed would relate to what your ship uses most.
I like this idea specifically, and the concept of more orbit options in general.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Bloodpetal
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Posted - 2009.04.12 19:11:00 -
[18]
I think a "pattern" maneuver would be a fun addition, but i'm not sure how it would be implemented in relation to your current position. Although, setting up a multi-stage tool that would let you set a specific maneuver action at a specific times might work...
i.e.
step 1 : 10 seconds - Straight - 90 degrees up - 75% speed
Step 2 : 5 seconds - 90 degrees left - 180 degrees down - 25% speed
step 3 : 10 seconds - 10 degrees right - 45 degrees up - 100% speed
Would create a basic immelman style maneuver that you could execute.
--
However, back on topic... I think the Customised orbits is much more immediately feasible. Only question is setting the orbital slice you could use.
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Eniy Oh
Gallente
United Systems Navy
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.04.19 10:28:00 -
[19]
I support this idea! Especially being able to set a custom orbit distance would be great, and indeed if in your orbit you'd bump into all kinds of stuff there's not much you can do about it.
---
The one whose ship names don't pass the sanity test while the rest of him is rather sane |
Shalock
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Posted - 2009.05.03 02:49:00 -
[20]
I support this idea
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
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Posted - 2009.05.03 03:24:00 -
[21]
I personally think this would be a waste of time for our developers from millions of other features they can implement. Orbit really depends on what kind of guns you fit, therefore, you should only have to change the default orbit distance once, right after you undock with a new fitted ship. Set the default, and then all it takes is one click on a selected target.
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Quantar Raalsken
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.03 04:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: eXeGee
I completely agree we need real customizable orbit (its extremely annoying when you are flying the other direction you would like to and when your ship gets bumps/stuck on rocks), however i dont know what would be the best way to resolve this problem. 3d circle seems to be all right, i'd like to have such tool. Maybe add something like key shortcut (for example ALT), when you press and hold it your current 3d orbit circle appears around ship (something similar to tactical overview), and while holding shortcut key you can move it with your mouse. Maybe like...
Linkage
?
Also, when you RMB click on orbit button, there could be bar (like winamp's seek bar) to adjust your orbit a little bit faster than writing numbers. Smth like this:
Linkage
?
However, current orbit scale seems to be a little bit too big to make such bar acurrate.
ZOMG THIS....i eve was thinking the of the second picture b4 i even finished reading the OP
=======
Homeworld Hamachi Network
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Alexander Vallen
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:25:00 -
[23]
Oh good, this thread is still alive. I was looking for it the other day. Implementation of this idea is still desperately needed.
(Almost as desperately needed as something to save drones on disconnect.)
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Alexander Vallen
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Posted - 2009.05.08 22:36:00 -
[24]
No response from CCP yet? A shame really.
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Stradien
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.06.07 05:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Stradien on 07/06/2009 05:14:27
I agree we need more options. Perhaps a more useful solution would be to create a formation tool rather than just an orbital tool (orbit being one of the ways to form up on an object).
The range tool just keeps your ship at a certain range from an object.
Formation on object might be:
1) Orbit at "range". This would really only be useful if an object was in free-space and very large.
2) Follow At "range". Would keep on the tail of the object matching speed and direction to keep the object at range. This is useful in dogfighting.
As it stands there's not a lot of "tactical wing maneuvers" that a wing commander in a fleet might be able to use to maximize his wing's "function" in a fleet. So i suggest:
3) Form On Wing Right at "range". Could be useful for concerted wing maneuvers. For a pilot trying to be a useful part of a wing of ships these kinds of formation tools would help keep the groups optimized for their functional roles in a squadron or fleet (close-in fighter wings versus artillery-wings). With these kinds of tools a tightly knit squadron of ships could keep their position tight with their wing commander or wing-man and perform some serious concerted attacks. Of course the formation would only be as tight as the similarities in the manuevering speeds of the ships in the wing.
4) Form On Wing Left at "range", match speed. (variation on #3)
5) Form On Wing Above at "range", match speed. (variation on #3)
6) Form On Wing Below at "range", match speed. (variation on #3)
You could get some serious formations going in a wing or even a fleet with each wing assign to a "range" that matches their ability. I could imagine a great big Arrow-headed cluster of ships with artillery on the long sides. Or if the Devs wanted to give squadron leadership more power they could allow them to "arrange" the ships in their wings in these kinds of formations. Leaving combat control and decision making to the individual pilots with the power to "break formation" if they wished.
And also, support ships could be formed up on for tactical support and boosting.... there's a lot of ways to do it.
In another perspective, the Form On Wing model could be used to get above or below an asteroid in a field and avoid all that nasty bumping and waggling when you get stuck between rocks.
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