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John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
170
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Posted - 2012.05.03 23:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
Vechtor wrote:John Revenent wrote:This is beside the point, either some in the Republic want our cooperation or they don't. If they do not.. that just means Ishukone-Raata will be forced to look for more willing Partners elsewhere. There is nothing wrong with people seeking profit and trying to expand their production capabilities that way. But that was a wrong move John.
Ishukone-Raata is looking for partners who understand the value of trade, who are willing to look past implications and further economical growth for both parties involved. How replaceable they are is up to them.. this is business we are not trying to court some girl.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
625
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Posted - 2012.05.04 00:18:00 -
[62] - Quote
The Amarrian Empire is trying to remove all economic strength from the Minmatar by enslaving them (slaves do not in general make a lot of profits for themselves, you will agree). Ishukone is directly and explicitly supporting the Amarr Empire in this venture to remove economic strength from the Minmatar. I-RED is supporting Ishukone. Hence, cooperating with I-RED is simply supporting an endeavor to remove Minmatar profits. I am afraid it would be economically stupid to do this.
Was that understandable enough, or do you require further translation into Caldari corporate tongue? |
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
6
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Posted - 2012.05.04 00:38:00 -
[63] - Quote
Paul J Keating wrote: If that isn't a metaphor for the FNP's dedication to good policy, I don't know what is.
Or perhaps we just know a lost cause when we see one. Like your policy of 'appeasement' to the Caldari.
Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station |
Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
14
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Posted - 2012.05.04 00:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote: Ishukone is directly and explicitly supporting the Amarr Empire in this venture to remove economic strength from the Minmatar. I-RED is supporting Ishukone. Hence, cooperating with I-RED is simply supporting an endeavor to remove Minmatar profits. I am afraid it would be economically stupid to do this.
You are wrong.
Trade has never served to remove profits or to remove economic strength. It is quite the opposite. Trade serves to make you have access to things you are not "specialist" on having, by means of selling those things you are "specialist" on having to people that are not. The outcome of trade is always the expansion of both parties production (and consumption) possibility frontiers.
Politicaly speaking, although, it is true that given agreements would tend to make I-RED stronger, and a Matari has to ask himself if this is what he wants. I've seen I-RED fighting Caldari Militia pilots before and politicaly position itself against many Caldari things they think are wrong, but ultimately, I don't think I-RED serves any other wealth than Ishukone's. |
Valdezi
Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
25
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Posted - 2012.05.04 00:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
John Revenent wrote: ....we are not trying to court some girl.
If it were, we surely would have bedded her by now. |
Altarr Orkot
Intaki Security and Intelligence Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
17
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Posted - 2012.05.04 01:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Vechtor wrote:Politicaly speaking, although, it is true that given agreements would tend to make I-RED stronger, and a Matari has to ask himself if this is what he wants. I've seen I-RED fighting Caldari Militia pilots before and politicaly position itself against many Caldari things they think are wrong, but ultimately, I don't think I-RED serves any other wealth than Ishukone's.
Ishukone subsidiary serves the interests of it's parent company. News at 11. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
625
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Posted - 2012.05.04 01:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Vechtor wrote:Trade has never served to remove profits or to remove economic strength. Please, Mr. Vechtor - we both know that you wouldn't be a successful business man if you were truly this naive. I understand your need to keep up the cover, but I would recommend in the future to avoid getting into a situation where you have to resort to silly statements such as that to protect your business strategy.
Have a nice day. |
Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
14
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Posted - 2012.05.04 01:28:00 -
[68] - Quote
Valdezi wrote:John Revenent wrote: ....we are not trying to court some girl. If it were, we surely would have bedded her by now. Not by feeling ill, hopefuly...
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Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
14
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Posted - 2012.05.04 01:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
Altarr Orkot wrote:Ishukone subsidiary serves the interests of it's parent company. News at 11.
This thing would occupy a broader specter in terms of line of reasoning than simply being repetitive or cynical Altarr...
A Matari would have to face a very contradictory, not to say paradox, decision when making trade agreements with I-RED, such as I pointed out, because even though it would be possible to achieve good economical outcomes for the Republic, it would also work to strengthen one of the pillars of a State who indeed works against the Matari.
You can do better than that, canGÇÖt you?
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
468
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Posted - 2012.05.04 03:22:00 -
[70] - Quote
I see this has finally become a full fledged mud-slinging contest. I expected no less of the fine, civilized, and educated folk that make up the IGS.
Do carry on. |
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Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems The Fourth District
37
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Posted - 2012.05.04 03:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
Simca Develon wrote:Nick Bete wrote:What's so dumb about it? Didn't Heth hold an auction for planets in the war zone that they were controlling at the time? Key words there are "that we were controlling" and I'll go ahead and add "at the time" since I know someone will make that distinction if I don't.
It should also be noted that the auction was for development rights between those party to the contract, the Eight major State corporations. The planets and systems were not actually sold. Lai Dai Infinity Systems |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
8
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Posted - 2012.05.04 04:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
(The following statements are strictly opinions of the employee alone and do not necessarily reflect the position of the employer itself.)
I will not deny some of the claims that have been made on the topic of investing in the Republic for economic gains. However, I-RED seeks investments for the economic gain of both parties, not just ourselves. Many individuals here seem to have the notion that all Caldari are mindless robotic-like scumbags who seek interests purely for self-benefit, which, although may be true for some, is not necessarily true for us.
A couple of months ago I had the priviledge of being invited to a celebratory party by an old university friend on a relatively well-settled Republic planet. When I arrived, though, the event was anything but joyous. I can still remember seeing clearly the fake smiles and the fake sounds of laughter as the guests tried to make the best of what little they had. I could see struggle written on all the wrinkles of their faces, all the cuts on their hands, arms, and legs, all the deep sighs they exhaled. I was moved.
I can sympathize with the Matari people. I believe many of my fellow I-RED comrades can do, and currently feel, the same.
The whole origin of this investment outreach was from the Cal-Matari Operations organization, which I have only recently taken the reigns of. I proposed investing in the Republic market. I sought permission from my Taisho to begin probing prospective entites as being viable trade partners. I have ventured out to Republic space for two weeks to begin forging mutually beneficial trade agreements. I, as we speak, am trying to befriend a people which fate has not been so kind to. I am trying to help.
The purpose of this outreach is for economic benefit, yes. But many of you fail to see that it is more than just that.
The Caldari State has no quarrels with the Minmatar Republic, it never has from the beginning. The fact that the two are at war is a consequence of who our friends are. Some of the commentors above have mentioned how TCMCs are the bane of all things, yet the same people seem to forget there are much, much more inhumane and cruel methods by which slave control can be obtained. |
Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
18
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Posted - 2012.05.04 06:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Hans Nardieu wrote:Or perhaps we just know a lost cause when we see one. Like your policy of 'appeasement' to the Caldari.
The Caldari are our brothers and sisters, Colonel. I'm sure both sides will remember that before too long.
Korsavius wrote:Some of the commentors above have mentioned how TCMCs are the bane of all things, yet the same people seem to forget there are much, much more inhumane and cruel methods by which slave control can be obtained.
Spoken like a true bottom feeding misery-monger. The presence of other evils does not absolve you of the responsibility to do what is right. |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
8
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Posted - 2012.05.04 07:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Paul J Keating wrote:Korsavius wrote:Some of the commentors above have mentioned how TCMCs are the bane of all things, yet the same people seem to forget there are much, much more inhumane and cruel methods by which slave control can be obtained. Spoken like a true bottom feeding misery-monger. The presence of other evils does not absolve you of the responsibility to do what is right.
And what is right, Mr. Keating? From a practical standpoint, TCMCs are more humane than other methods such as, say, Vitoc. Obviously, I do not advocate slavery and neither does the State. What you are essentially asking is for I-RED and therefore Ishukone to implore the Amarrians to remove a system which has firmly entrenched itself in their society - an entire alteration of their culture. It is not our place to do such a thing, as Simca stated earlier.
You seem to forget that TCMCs have more uses than just for slave control. They have medical and robotic benefits as well. Though I suppose a fine, corrupt politician such as yourself would prefer to focus only on the negativities. |
Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
7
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Posted - 2012.05.04 07:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
Korsavius wrote:And what is right, Mr. Keating? From a practical standpoint, TCMCs are more humane than other methods such as, say, Vitoc. Obviously, I do not advocate slavery and neither does the State. What you are essentially asking is for I-RED and therefore Ishukone to implore the Amarrians to remove a system which has firmly entrenched itself in their society - an entire alteration of their culture. It is not our place to do such a thing, as Simca stated earlier.
This is the most disgusting sort of amorality imaginable. I can't imagine how you can call yourself a child of Matar.
Slavery is a vile wrong, a wrong that delivers swathes of your countrymen beyond count to ignominous bondage. And you argue that the proper course is non-intervention because slavery constitutes part of their culture?
Well guess what? Not all cultures are equal. Some maintain their power by crushing the weak and they should not be allowed to continue. Evil thrives on such indulgence. They should be made to desist, with words if possible, with economic sanctions if necessary, and with force if we must. To do otherwise is to condone and to collaborate with the people that commit these crimes against humanity.
You, Korsavius, are a collaborator with the power that enslaves your tribes.
Korsavius wrote:You seem to forget that TCMCs have more uses than just for slave control. They have medical and robotic benefits as well. Though I suppose a fine, corrupt politician such as yourself would prefer to focus only on the negativities.
The Hon. Mr Keating is many things. My predecessor called him a 'hopeless idealist', for example. Corrupt isn't one of them. Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
836
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Posted - 2012.05.04 08:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
As a man who has many friends in the Minmatar Republic and a good working relationship with I-RED (despite one member's repeated and inexplicable attempts to ruin it), I'd strongly advise Minmatar corporations to consider this:
The State, even if it's run by a madman, is still geared towards the generation of profit. If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief. I-RED severed ties with its Amarrian business partners because they were thieves and liars. They're now looking to replace the Amarrians with someone more reliable and less likely to stab them in the back during a moment of weakness - such as what happened with CVA. That could be you.
You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
8
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Posted - 2012.05.04 08:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
Never in the past have I called myself a "child of Matar" nor shall I ever. I was not even born in the Republic, sir.
I do not condone slavery but I take no public action against it because it is not my place to do so, and I have my own agenda to fulfill. I have my own methods with which to protest slavery, rest assured.
And yes, men such as Mr. Keating and yourself can most certainly be labeled as corrupt. You speak as an altruistic liberator of mankind yet you spew venom at all things Caldari. Please do yourself a favor and lighten your darkened heart. |
Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
18
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Posted - 2012.05.04 08:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Korsavius wrote:I do not condone slavery but I take no public action against it because it is not my place to do so, and I have my own agenda to fulfill. I have my own methods with which to protest slavery, rest assured.
It seems that you're a coward Mr. Korsavius. You would not be overstepping any boundaries by protesting Amarrian tyranny. Amusingly you've already stated that you do protest slavery 'in your own way'. I imagine that means that you once said 'slavery is bad' to an empty room.
People are being enslaved Mr. Korsavius, people who will never know the freedom that you do. Take a stand, or please, stop pretending to care.
Korsavius wrote: And yes, men such as Mr. Keating and yourself can most certainly be labeled as corrupt. You speak as an altruistic liberator of mankind yet you spew venom at all things Caldari. Please do yourself a favor and lighten your darkened heart.
Corruption is a serious allegation to be leveled against a someone in public office. There is no love lost between me and the Colonel, but his opinion of the Caldari has nothing to do with his integrity.
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Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
112
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Posted - 2012.05.04 09:45:00 -
[79] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.
This post summarized many of my thoughts. Note, that I say "many" - for I am of course unhappy* with the State's passivity (and indeed enabling behavior) regarding enslavement, among many other complexities.
This post is going to reflect my personal feelings and not those of Rek Jaiga or indeed the rest of -TRA.
I am no friend of the State. They are enemies of the Republic**, this is certain. But this is exactly why I would see to it that they are not on the side of the Empire. To be implied as traitorous for concerning myself with the good of my people is frankly extremely distressing.
Let me be clear; I do not sympathize with the State on much. I do not undertake any dealings with the State lightly, I am aware of the risks and would not walk into a proposition that could endanger more Minmatar carelessly.
I would invite anybody who doubts this much of me the opportunity to converse in person; I harbor as much anger as any son or daughter of Matar over the evils that have been committed against our people that I have met.
I hope that my words in this thread have not been too upsetting for any of the involved parties.
* To be extremely polite.
** But due to the circumstances I am able to act impartially as it is a necessity if we are to make economic ties Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
274
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Posted - 2012.05.04 10:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
Korsavius, you cannot simply excuse TCMCs away by stating that there are worse methods of enslavement out there. While technically true, that's quite a bit like me saying it's OK to kill a man by decapitation where I could have, instead, opened his chest and unrolled his intact intestines onto the ground for the ants to feast on. Sure, one method is cleaner and less painful than the other, but it doesn't excuse the act at all. |
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Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
275
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Posted - 2012.05.04 10:46:00 -
[81] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief. I-RED severed ties with its Amarrian business partners because they were thieves and liars. They're now looking to replace the Amarrians with someone more reliable and less likely to stab them in the back during a moment of weakness - such as what happened with CVA. That could be you.
You want to really hurt the Empire? Attack its friendships. Ruin its economic ventures. Lure away its allies with better deals. Make it clear that you are a superior choice of companion.
That's basically been my platform of though in regards to enteraining a deal with I-RED. That being said, while I-RED may have broken ties with CVA, has Ishukone broken trade ties with the Empire? Of course not! I would be tickled pleased if I-RED could pull enough influence to have the megacorp go forth with such a move. I do not see that happening, however.
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John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
171
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Posted - 2012.05.04 11:32:00 -
[82] - Quote
Again. This is not a debate, Ishukone-Raata is looking for a mutual trade agreement. We are not here to needlessly argue about Ishukone's past dealings. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
34
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Posted - 2012.05.04 11:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
John Revenent wrote:Again. This is not a debate, Ishukone-Raata is looking for a mutual trade agreement. We are not here to needlessly argue about Ishukone's past dealings.
Lessons from history, etc. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
275
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:00:00 -
[84] - Quote
I don't view it as needless. This isn't squabbling for the sake of the past, but rather concern for the future. A company's past dealings are the basis for its reputation and honor. If Ishukone partnered itself with the Republic, would it act with honor and fairness? |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
275
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Doublepost, reserved for later comments. |
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
171
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mmhm.. What I mean to say is that if you have concerns, comments, questions.. and are truly interested in working toward a cooperative agreement you should be doing so in private. Conducting business with outsider interests involved proves to be more hassle then its worth.
John Revenent wrote:Further information on this opportunity can be found in the GalNet Channel IshuNET or via mail to Katrina Oniseki. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
287
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:30:00 -
[87] - Quote
Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues? |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
112
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:39:00 -
[88] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Again I have to ask: what is the grounds for dismissing the concerns about Ishukone's support of the Empire as past issues?
Teraa Matar aren't.
My previous post explains some of my own opinions, but also makes a point of saying that we are not dismissing Ishukone's current ventures. Which we certainly would not, just for emphasis. Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
67
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Posted - 2012.05.04 12:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
I have been following this discussion with interest and have come to the understanding that there are a number of parallels to the benefits and challenges experienced by I-RED's partners in Placid, specifically in the Viriette Constellation.
Following over two years of working alongside our partners in I-RED, I am happy to be contacted to discuss some of these challenges, and the benefits that greatly outweigh them, to help with any group that is considering a similar arrangement within the Republic.
I can be contacted via mail or within the FreeIntaki channel.
It should be said, though that despite the regrettable circumstances surrounding Ishukone becoming involved with the Intaki system, I-RED's efforts in the area have had a positive impact on the Intaki system and its neighbours.
Bataav en Gravonere. Diplomat. Intaki Liberation Front |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
269
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Posted - 2012.05.04 13:22:00 -
[90] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: The State, even if it's run by a madman, is still geared towards the generation of profit. If the State thinks you're a better customer than the Empire, it'll start adjusting its foreign policies to reflect that belief.
Trade with both the Amarr Empire and the Minmatar Republic is not mutually exclusive, especially for most Caldari megas, the liberal ones in particular. Most of the megas, be them Caldari or not, hold trade agreements with megas of the opposite side on a daily basis, even with the current war going on.
Believing that Ishukone will give up on the market of TCMCs with the Khanid Kingdom and some Amarrian Holders just because one of their capsuleer subsidiaries have concluded volatile deals with a few Minmatar capsuleer entities sounds a little stretched to me.
The same way, believing that the Caldari megas will break their current biggest trade agreements with the Tash Murkon family that allowed them to get out of their last economic crysis, or cancel the exploitation agreements they concluded with the Ammatar Mandate a decade ago in exchange of Caldari trade and goods, is pure utopy.
What a lot of people fail to understand is that they are most of the time dealing with megacorporations in the case of the State, and not with political entities. |
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