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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar CARTHAGO SECURITY INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2009.03.27 10:41:00 -
[1]
Right,
I know this probably has been posted like a million times but I really could do with some proper input on the choice of ship.
At the moment, I fly a CNR in missions, make shedloads of money and to be honest I'm very happy. I salvage all of them pretty much with my Hurricane.
But I keep looking at the Golem and thinking, will this make missioning faster if I use it with Torps over the Cruise CNR.
I don't have any torp skills yet so they will need to be trained up.
I'm just wondering, how much more efficient is the Golem over the CNR. From what I've read so far they are kinda pretty much even in many respects and obviously the CNR has the range using cruise over torps.
Money is not a problem, I'm just wondering whether it is worth skilling up to get the Golem or is it worth just skilling into other things because I do do a lot of PVP and missioning is only to supplement the habit. But it is my main source of income and any ability to increase efficiency so I can pew pew more is always welcome.
I do salvage missions all the time, so yes it would make a better salvage ship but I'm trying to justify a month of so of skilling up to use it well, when I'm kinda happy with my Hurricane.
And if it is better, I'm assuming Marauders lvl 4 at least with Torp spec lvl 4 with long range torps (or a selection of). Or is it just as good as the CNR with cruise missiles.
I appreciate that this is full of carebear fail and I'm going to get flamed but any constructive input would be appreciated.
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Khornne
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.27 10:44:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord
I know this probably has been posted like a million times [...]
You're right. Golem is better.
-- si vis pacem, para bellum If you wish for peace, prepare for war. |
Hannibal Ord
Minmatar CARTHAGO SECURITY INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2009.03.27 10:46:00 -
[3]
How much better is the issue. Its simply trying to get my head around percentage of time in SP spent on it.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.27 11:19:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord How much better is the issue. Its simply trying to get my head around percentage of time in SP spent on it.
SP needed is not really part of that equation where you can ask if this or that ship is better. Anyway - to asnwer your question (that indeed comes up every few days) - I would suggest trying EVE search. Here let me get you started with some threads.
older golem vs cnr missile damage and golem vs cnr flare vs rigor rigs
Those should clear up some of your questions.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.03.27 12:43:00 -
[5]
theoretically both can use a torp setups, but the cnr is much more faction/complex mod heavy due to fitting problems. if we ignore this then: on paper torp cnr will do more dps, in reality it will only do more dps to bs. golem can instapop most cruiser sized npcs because it can use 2 targets painters due to slot amount which will speed up missioning times alot, also golems' tank is better (and you get nice tractor beam range)
if isk is not an issue, decide either on paintjob look or take the golem if you wanna salvage stuff too.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic theoretically both can use a torp setups, but the cnr is much more faction/complex mod heavy due to fitting problems. if we ignore this then: on paper torp cnr will do more dps, in reality it will only do more dps to bs. golem can instapop most cruiser sized npcs because it can use 2 targets painters due to slot amount which will speed up missioning times alot, also golems' tank is better (and you get nice tractor beam range)
if isk is not an issue, decide either on paintjob look or take the golem if you wanna salvage stuff too.
More recent patches have changed this some. Golems get a bonus to their painters, so that helps them out with using torps, but also they get a bonus to torp explosion velocity, which helps them out quite a bit.
While I used to be a big CNR torp fan for pure gankiness (and yeah, it required a little faction/complex gear but it was sweet :P), these days it's really all about the Golem for torps.
That said, I love torps. It's either shorter range (although still 60-65km) and gigantic, pretty explosions with face melting DPS, or longer range ZZZzzz.... cruise missiles. I dunno, I just have never been a big fan of cruise missiles, so I'd definitely suggest the OP pick up a golem and train those t2 torps.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Traderboz
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic theoretically both can use a torp setups, but the cnr is much more faction/complex mod heavy due to fitting problems. if we ignore this then: on paper torp cnr will do more dps, in reality it will only do more dps to bs. golem can instapop most cruiser sized npcs because it can use 2 targets painters due to slot amount which will speed up missioning times alot, also golems' tank is better (and you get nice tractor beam range)
if isk is not an issue, decide either on paintjob look or take the golem if you wanna salvage stuff too.
More recent patches have changed this some. Golems get a bonus to their painters, so that helps them out with using torps, but also they get a bonus to torp explosion velocity, which helps them out quite a bit.
While I used to be a big CNR torp fan for pure gankiness (and yeah, it required a little faction/complex gear but it was sweet :P), these days it's really all about the Golem for torps.
That said, I love torps. It's either shorter range (although still 60-65km) and gigantic, pretty explosions with face melting DPS, or longer range ZZZzzz.... cruise missiles. I dunno, I just have never been a big fan of cruise missiles, so I'd definitely suggest the OP pick up a golem and train those t2 torps.
This... is a great start. You don't really need to spend more on a CNR than a golem, BUT compensating for the TP bonus and explosion velocity bonus is nearly impossible, which means even BS's won't take full damage especially considering you could've used rage torps if they DID take full damage with your CNR.
That said, cruise setups are not bad, you can use faction launchers, not forced to use t2 as with torps, you get the extra range and a tad easier to fit Afterburners and such. I spawned a bit the other day with a friend about an armortanked variant of torp CNR for pve, I think it's posted on the forums here somewhere. For cruise CNR is way way better than the golem for several reasons, dps being one and 3 rig slots another example. Price is another great one. On a grand scale, cruise cnrs are easier, cheaper and faster times per average mission, but torp golems are much better isk/h and faster on many missions, atleast if you don't start pimping them with crystal sets and such. Mixes such as cruise golems and torp cnrs are viable in very very narrow scenarios. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 335815
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:35:00 -
[8]
I dunno, I'm just a big torp fan. :P Both my matar and caldari chars have sub-cap missiles fully trained, but torps were the first to hit 5, haha. Then again, I run two accounts for missioning, so the gankiness of torps is very important to me.
There's nothing wrong with cruise missiles, but I just find them very boring compared to turret boats or even torps. I try to use ships and weapons I find fun in missions, since missions really don't need to be any more boring than they already are, haha.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Traderboz I dunno, I'm just a big torp fan. :P Both my matar and caldari chars have sub-cap missiles fully trained, but torps were the first to hit 5, haha. Then again, I run two accounts for missioning, so the gankiness of torps is very important to me.
There's nothing wrong with cruise missiles, but I just find them very boring compared to turret boats or even torps. I try to use ships and weapons I find fun in missions, since missions really don't need to be any more boring than they already are, haha.
I agree entirely. But it's sort of hard to argue with hard facts of cold mission times. Between the two, cruise cnrs are often faster and I'll happily wager it's faster on average. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 761274
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.03.27 13:52:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 27/03/2009 13:53:24 actually if you take the new missile dmg formula, the explo velocity bonus is a useless one because the explo velocity of torps is too low to begin with. also if the sig of your target is larger than your explo radius, it can still take full dmg even if speed would reduce it. an unbonused unskilled target painter increases a BS sig to over 500 (compared to 450 of your torp) thus you will deal full dmg to bs in most cases.
as I already said, torp cnr will outdmg the golem fighting bs but golem can easily field 2 target painters without touching the tank much allowing him to insta pop most cruisers. also a torp cnr is isk heavy mod wise.
the reasons why I dislike cruise missiles and took torp setups to a comparision: 1. defenders. one defender reduces your volley dmg by 15% and there are some pretty nasty defender spamming ships out in missions. 2. the dmg reduction of torps against cruiser sized stuff is large but it will still deal about the same dmg as cruise missile equivalent setups.
*edit* also cruise missiles are boring :>
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Tyrenical
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:27:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tyrenical on 27/03/2009 15:28:55 If you salvage at all for income, and not just afterthought, get a Golem. I've made over 100mill in salvage in the past couple weeks, salvaging as I do the mission.
If your just going for dps and speeding through a mission, get a CNR.
With twice the carrying capacity & tractor bonuses,If ya wanna squeeze all the isk ya can out of a mission in a time effective way, get a Golem. It truly Is a money maker.
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Arfvedson
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:57:00 -
[12]
I have and use both CNR's and Golem's. The golem is the way to go tbh. But only if you can skill for it, and only if you can afford it. A properly fitted golem is 2-3BILLION isk investment. Think about that.
You cant omni tank a CNR properly and put a TP on it. Golem wins in that regard. CNR is slightly better dps. (just slightly) Golem tractor bonus is nice. Golem saves ALOT of ammo. Less ammo spent is more isk in your pocket. CNR has a larger tank, but golem has a harder tank. (go figuer) Golem looks cooler! (Although I really do like the CNR and hate the vanilla raven)
One thing I cant figuer out, is why the golem has a bigger sig radius than the raven, when it's it exact same size, and has LESS shields..
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.27 16:07:00 -
[13]
Quote: A properly fitted golem is 2-3BILLION isk investment. Think about that.
Yes, think about that. Think about that, and try your best to keep from laughing.
Seriously, there's absolutely no reason to throw that much ISK at a golem unless you simply have money sitting around collecting dust. It can do perfectly fine with a mostly t2 fit, and throwing a few hundred million at it (perhaps a nice invuln field and an upgraded booster) is more than enough.
Suggesting that you have to spend billions to "properly" fit any mission ship is pretty silly imo.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.03.27 19:52:00 -
[14]
Torps have a pretty limited range. How do you handle mission BS's that orbit up to 50k away? A long stern chase? A couple of web drones?
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Terminus Vindictus
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.27 19:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: stoicfaux Torps have a pretty limited range. How do you handle mission BS's that orbit up to 50k away? A long stern chase? A couple of web drones?
T2 Javelins with range rigs and range implants. Can get torps out to 65km effective on a Golem that way.
Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. |
Hannibal Ord
Minmatar CARTHAGO SECURITY INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2009.03.27 23:45:00 -
[16]
Thanks Guys.
You've actually convinced me to get one now. Bastards. LOL. Fly safe.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.27 23:59:00 -
[17]
They say Golems are nice.
I use a CNR however.
But I can not be botherd with all the level 5 skills. Mission is only a source of isk for my PvP :)
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Solid Prefekt
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.28 01:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hannibal Ord Money is not a problem, I'm just wondering whether it is worth skilling up to get the Golem or is it worth just skilling into other things because I do do a lot of PVP and missioning is only to supplement the habit. But it is my main source of income and any ability to increase efficiency so I can pew pew more is always welcome.
Money might not be the problem for you, but SP will be. The Golem is better but you need T2 Torps, max missile distance skills (to hit 58km+), and TP trained. Without that the ship is not much better then a Raven.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.28 01:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Originally by: Hannibal Ord Money is not a problem, I'm just wondering whether it is worth skilling up to get the Golem or is it worth just skilling into other things because I do do a lot of PVP and missioning is only to supplement the habit. But it is my main source of income and any ability to increase efficiency so I can pew pew more is always welcome.
Money might not be the problem for you, but SP will be. The Golem is better but you need T2 Torps, max missile distance skills (to hit 58km+), and TP trained. Without that the ship is not much better then a Raven.
That's all worthwhile to train though. Range skills are nice for most missile systems, target painting is pretty standard, and who doesn't like torps?
The only thing the Golem requires that you won't use for PVP (well, probably not) is the Marauders skill. It's pretty hard to justify training that to 5 unless you just really love some missioning, lol, but getting it to level 4 is sufficient imo.
I definitely agree though that you want to have all the skills you listed if you're flying a golem. If you're going to rush straight to the Golem, better to just get some CN cruise launchers rather than try and fit some sort of meta torp fit.
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4 LOM
United Gamers
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Posted - 2009.03.28 05:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Arfvedson A properly fitted golem is 2-3BILLION isk investment. Think about that.
What?
(did not read the reast of the thread after this)... how the hell are you fitting it to get you anywhere near that much? unless you are so overtanking it beyond any form of sanity.
Originally by: Twilight Moon of course you have nice hair. That pod goo, is actually VO5 conditioner.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.29 08:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Traderboz
Quote: A properly fitted golem is 2-3BILLION isk investment. Think about that.
Yes, think about that. Think about that, and try your best to keep from laughing.
Have to agree, that 2-3 bill is way over the top. Let me share a lil secret. TANKING ABILITY DOES NOT SPEED UP YOUR MISSIONRUNNING. Whew ... it's out now ;) So - in layman terms - you do not need DG invuls nor faction boosters to be fast in Golem/CNR.
You can do good, and I mean GOOD, missionrunning setup on Golem with approx 600 - 700 mil including 4 navy BCU's and few other better gadgets (like cheaper faction booster or faction launchers) and/or 2 most relevant 5% hardwires. Plus ship hull ofc.
As far as Cruise vs Torps debate goes, it's not as black and white as it might seem from the posts of previous boosters. In some cases cruise are as fast on average as torps. Both have their advantages and if it's uber or just good for you depends on your missionrunning region and tackiks you like to use. Granted - nowdays it's not a real issue anymore anyway, as refitting is so damn easy nowdays it's not an excuse anymore to not use best setup for that particular mission. Or - go old fashioned way, one ship with torps and another with cruise and pick the one working best for that particular mission (as you will have optimal rigs also that way).
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Karrade Krise
Mid Knights
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Posted - 2009.03.29 11:02:00 -
[22]
Golem. 'Nuff said.
Terianna Eri > :( i wish i were as good a forum ***** as karrade |
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