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Excalibolg
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Posted - 2009.03.25 08:59:00 -
[1]
I've been running missions with a Nightmare for a couple of months, and it's been doing very well for me. I was comparing this ship with the Paladin and the Golem, and I need some advice on deciding on which would be the best for lvl 4 missions. The Nightmare has a nice tracking speed bonus that the Paladin does not. Also it has an extra rig slot which kinda offsets the bonus to cap that the Paladin has. However, the Paladin is more efficient with repairing and will overall have better cap. It's also a little hard to compare these ships to a torp Golem that my friend said he was having a very easy time with in missions.
So basically I am wondering if anyone has flown a combination of these ships that can attest to which they had an easier time with in missions. Before anyone asks, I have equally high Armor and Shield skills as well as Energy and Torp skills and BS to V in both, so this doesn't matter.
Also, before anyone asks here is my current Nightmare Setup
High:
4x T2 Tachyon
1x E500 Nos
1x Tractor Beam
Meds:
1x T2 XL Booster
3x T2 Specific hardeners
1x T2 Shield boost amp
2x T2 Cap Recharge
Lows:
3x T2 Heatsink
2x T2 Tracking Enhancer
Rigs
1x Energy Discharge Elutration
2x CCC
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Gul Rashen
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.25 09:27:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Gul Rashen on 25/03/2009 09:31:47
I don't fly a Nightmare but have both a Golem and a Paladin.
The Paladin is more fun especially vs Sanshas+co. The Golem is a bit boring after a while. Through the small Torprange a special tactic is needed for really good Missiontimes, you have to pull and Trigger spawns early enough to get them in range.
The Golem is good vs. all types of Enemies. The Paladin is devestating vs. Sanshas/Bloods aso. but has more Problems vs Guristas, Angels, Serpentis+co. I love both Ships. I find Missions are easier with the Golem. Warpin, activate Boosters, pull and shoot, shoot, shoot. No tracking-Issues, no bad hits aso. But thats the Reason why i love my Pala also and find the Golem a bit boring. It's much more action flying the Pala and the feeling hitting with crits is great. Compared to the Nightmare there is the Tank, the tracking and the Cap, as you said. On the downside every Damagemod will let you less room for Tank/Capmods. Can't say which one of these two is really "better".
The Golem is a bit easier to fit. You can fly it easily with 3-4 Damagemods. On the Palaside is the Range, warpin in and start shooting, no matter what range the NPCs are.
If you fly the Nightmare i would take the Golem. Nightmare and Pala are very similar. Golem offers the Advantage to have a shieldtank like your Nightmare and has no problems with NPCs who have high EM/Therm-resists.
Pala/Golem or Nightmare/Golem are good combinations for Missionrunners who wanna kill al kind of NPCs in the fastest possible time.
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Forranz
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:30:00 -
[3]
While I fly a Nightmare and not Marauders, I'll add my side of what I would see.
The Nightmare is a beast of a ship, yes I sleep through missions. I noticed you're using T2 stuff on it. Why not upgrade to complex/faction loot? For instance, I use the RF Tracking Enhancer for the extra range/tracking (I use pulse lasers). The faction heat sinks let you do more dps as well.
My only thoughts is look into upgrading your ship with better items to pull better results from it. Dps wise, I believe you'd do about the same in a Paladin. I switched to faction NOS for the extra range, personally. I'm actually saving up a few bil to upgrade my tank so I can do 1k+ omni and still put out 1k+ dps (pulse lasers).
Are you cap stable with your current setup?
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:16:00 -
[4]
I dont fly paladin/golem, but i use nightmare for amarr missions, and i consider it a great ship for them.
My fitting is almost the same as yours /im using faction heatsinks/, but for some missions i use full gank setup with 4 heatsinks in lows, only three hardeners in mids, and rest tracking computers - so with an xray i have 73+25km range and 800+ dps /5500+ volley, but im not sure about exact numbers/.
I really dont think that paladin can do better than nighmare /except salvaging and lol permarunning/, but golem can be better for some non em/th missions /angel extravaganza for example/.
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Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:18:00 -
[5]
I have flown all 3, here's my experience.
Objectively:
Golem: best all arounder, Easy mode(missiles), shield tank, change damage type, average dps.
Paladin: High dps, armor tank, extra cap, looting/salvage at same time, fixed dmg type(hard time against Angels/serpentis/guristas)
Nightmare: High dps, shield tank, extra tracking speed, fixed dmg type(same as above).
Subjectively:
Golem: Easy mode(beyound Boring), shield tank  I prefer armor tanking anyday ! and the crappy dps you get from delayed hit missiles 
Paladin: this is my favorit great dps, armor tank  .
Nightmare: a good ship if you like shield tanking !....... I don't...... the shield tanking is really the only thing that makes it different from the paladin.
for missions times:
Golem: aveage good times on everything.
Paladin/Nightmare: Exelent times on Bloodraiders/sansha,.. crappy times on Angel/serpentis/guristas.
Generally I find the Paladin best. (offcause only in amarr space) |
Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Forranz
While I fly a Nightmare and not Marauders, I'll add my side of what I would see.
The Nightmare is a beast of a ship, yes I sleep through missions. I noticed you're using T2 stuff on it. Why not upgrade to complex/faction loot? For instance, I use the RF Tracking Enhancer for the extra range/tracking (I use pulse lasers). The faction heat sinks let you do more dps as well.
My only thoughts is look into upgrading your ship with better items to pull better results from it. Dps wise, I believe you'd do about the same in a Paladin. I switched to faction NOS for the extra range, personally. I'm actually saving up a few bil to upgrade my tank so I can do 1k+ omni and still put out 1k+ dps (pulse lasers).
Are you cap stable with your current setup?
cap stable ?? lol.......... it would be a shame to sacrifice the dps for cap stable !
what the hell are we going too do with cap stableness, when the mission is over after 5-10mins and we still have around 50% cap left |
Major Templar
Caldari
The Dark Wheel Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:34:00 -
[7]
I sleep, I mean fly my Navy Raven, (Yes, I know, like who doesn't have one?) through level 4 missions and don't even worry about it. I am pushing for a Golem but plan to get my skills to level 5 before I even get into it, don't want to rush into it because honestly there is no reason to. I run perma-tanked and have no issue at all. It can do any mission, (except Enemies Abound 5 of 5.) I really suggest the Golem for easy mode honestly but if you want fun, go with the Paladin, I'm gonna do that after I get my Golem completed. And also, I really do suggest like the person a few above me, put some faction/complex gear on that Nightmare, it's deserving of it.
Major Templar
The Dark Wheel Corporation [TDWC]
Assistant Director, Personnel Manager
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:45:00 -
[8]
I use a CNR, and I got no plans on getting a Golem anytime soon.
But the CNR perfomrs well with cruise missiles, and I suspect the Golem will as well. Tho the Golem shines best with Torps I would think.
As for the Nightmare, it should cut trhough sansha blood raider misison like a warm knift through butter :).
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Jennz
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Xano Heroma
Edited by: Xano Heroma on 25/03/2009 11:30:54
I have flown all 3, here's my experience.
Objectively:
Golem: best all arounder, Easy mode(missiles), shield tank, change damage type, average dps.
Paladin: High dps, armor tank, extra cap, looting/salvage at same time, fixed dmg type(hard time against Angels/serpentis/guristas)
Nightmare: High dps, shield tank, extra tracking speed, fixed dmg type(same as above).
Subjectively:
Golem: Easy mode(beyound Boring), shield tank I prefer armor tanking anyday ! and the crappy dps you get from delayed hit missiles
Paladin: this is my favorit great dps, armor tank .
Nightmare: a good ship if you like shield tanking !....... I don't...... the shield tanking is really the only thing that makes it different from the paladin.
for missions times:
Golem: average good times on everything.
Paladin/Nightmare: Exelent times on Bloodraiders/sansha,.. crappy times on Angel/serpentis/guristas.
Generally I find the Paladin best. (offcause only in amarr space)
This is basically spot on.
It's worth noting also that whilst the Paladin has one less rig slot it has (if memory serves) 50 more calibration points than the Nightmare. You could probably quite easily fit an Energy Collision Accelerator II on a Paladin, with the other slot being used for a CCC I - and still have no cap issues. On the Nightmare however you'd struggle imo. That in it of itself assuming the same damage fittings would push the Paladin ahead on damage.
With the tracking bonus and shield tank Nightmare is an easier transition from the world of Ravens. Whilst you can't exactly just park it and shoot everything without caring about transversal, it requires only a bit of extra effort, and with tracking enhancer/computer(s) even less so.
Paladin and Nightmare all things considered are basically interchangeable I think, which one you choose will probably depend on your preference for shield or armour tanking. Then again, NM is vertical.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:14:00 -
[10]
I dunno why everyone says the nightmare/paladin has problems with serpentis; lasers aren't the best weapons for the job but tachyons burn through them just as well as they do anything else
__________________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:59:00 -
[11]
I can fly all 3, but right now only actively fly the Golem/Nightmare. The only reason I would swap your Nightmare for a Paladin is if you often salvage your missions. The ability to fit 3 40km tractors on the Paladin is quite nice, and then you can leave the wrecks in a nice, neat pile for your salvage ship.
The Nightmare is just an all-around gankboat though, and you aren't going to top its DPS with a Paladin (although it's close). I'd really consider it interchangeable with the Paladin, and the big factor is how important is salvage/tractors to you. Since I usually mission with two accounts, I like the Nightmare, since all I'm after is more DPS, and I'm usually too lazy to salvage missions anyways.  I use a slightly different setup from yours though, since I prefer the reduced capload of AN Tach's.
The Golem is a different sort of ship, but still is quite nice. I really like pairing it with a turret boat, since you can pop the cruisers/frigates ridiculously fast with the Nightmare, while melting the BS one after another with the Golem. If you mission with a solo Golem, you'll have to rely more on your drones, but it'll still complete any mission with ease. Plus, torps make pretty explosions.
In short, I think the Golem is going to do some missions faster than a NM/Pally, and the NM/Pally will do some missions faster than the Golem. It really just depends. If you own both, you could swap between them depending on the mission, but either one would do quite well on average. Now, if you run two characters and put them in the same mission together... then it just gets ridiculously fast, haha.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.03.25 14:46:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 25/03/2009 14:46:51
It's been said, but let me summarise.
Nightmare for gank vs EM weak rats, and some others.
Paladin if you want to salvage EM weak rats.
Torp Golem for everything else, unless range is an issue (Like Serp Spies at 130km).
Why settle for one, when you can get all three?
Note that the Nightmare will burn through (killspeed only) missions like Gone Berserk (EoM) faster then anything else, even if they aren't primarily weak to EM.
Also, the Golem DOES get damage reduction and crappy hits against some rats. I've had dual 46% painted Angel BS take as little as ~1,3k damage from four grouped CN torps (normal hit is in the 4-5k range, 7-8k on structure). That's with most relevant skills at 5, a few at 4.
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Excalibolg
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Posted - 2009.03.25 19:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Excalibolg on 25/03/2009 19:07:34
Everyone's input has helped me out a bit. To clear up on some things, that setup gets me cap stable for quite a while, and I only had problems once when I put on Photons for guristas  . I could probably remove the cap recharge for another boost amp. It isn't all that necessary to get a Paladin for the tractor beam since I'm using a dictor for salvaging (very nice in non-deadspace). What I may end up doing is getting a Golem in the near future and adding in faction mods to the Nightmare. Maybe then I don't have to decline all Angel Extraveganzas or use my Nighthawk anymore.
Just for clarification, I've heard 2 people say now that the Paladin does more damage than a Nightmare, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. I am also a little curious how annoying people have found the limited range on the torps.
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Forranz
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:18:00 -
[14]
I'm curious, did you buy your toon? You run out of cap because you are using beams coupled with the T2 booster. I run gank heavy on my Nightmare with a small pithi a-type booster tanking only like 400 dps or so and I did every L4 that gave good salvage for me.
I would offer that you should buy a lot better modules for your Nightmare instead of buying a Golem. Who knows, it may make a big difference for you.
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Excalibolg
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Posted - 2009.03.25 21:31:00 -
[15]
No, I didn't buy my toon. I will be buying some faction stuff soon, which should add around 6-8% more damage. However, I'm not really running out of cap at all, but of course I'm not perma-running like a small booster probably would. A Golem would be nice though to deal with Gurista and Angels, so I don't know which I'll be buying first.
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.03.25 21:43:00 -
[16]
Honestly, the winner here is the Kronos....
It tanks like a Paladin although the Paladin has more balanced resists and bigger capacitor. It does a little less damage (comparing Tachs to 425s*), but it has a nice tracking bonus and it does Kinetic/Thermal instead of EM/Thermal so there are fewer NPC types that it does poorly against. It also has a bigger drone bay so you more flexibility there.
And who the heck doesn't love a Golden Megathron?
*As a side note, how do Paladins do with Pulse Lasers? A Kronos will have some serious range issues with blasters but the raw DPS potential makes me giggle.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Trinity Storm
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Posted - 2009.03.25 21:55:00 -
[17]
Poor Rattlesnake always gets left out of the equation.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2009.03.25 23:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Excalibolg
Edited by: Excalibolg on 25/03/2009 19:07:34I've heard 2 people say now that the Paladin does more damage than a Nightmare
Not true, both have 5% damage bonus and same number of turrets - in addition Nightmare has tracking bonus and 5 lows available for weapon upgrades.
Really the only advantage of paladin is bonus to tractor beams.
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Aimel
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.03.26 03:46:00 -
[19]
It's easy :
The best pve ship is the golem if you have the skill to play it with torps going at 60km.
Nightmare / Paladin are great if your only doing Em-therm missions, I prefer the nightmare because he do more DPS than the paladin and his optimal is approx 10km better and it has a better tracking.
In other words, with a Nightmare you can gank every missions using tachyon loaded with multifrequency and its doing some really nasty damages.
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.03.26 03:54:00 -
[20]
I honestly have no clue where a few people in this thread are coming up with these statements. Nightmare has longer optimal...? What? I thought at first you may have intended to say it has a longer targeting range, but actually the Paladin wins that contest.
There's a tracking bonus on the Nightmare, but neither ship gets a bonus to optimal and both can fit Tach's no problem. I personally use a locus II rig on my Nightmare, but I hardly think that's a standard fit. I'm just a sucker for +optimal, haha.
And earlier someone was claiming the Paladin was the higher DPS ship, which is just wrong. It's the other way around.
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Excalibolg
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Posted - 2009.03.26 04:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Aimel
The best pve ship is the golem if you have the skill to play it with torps going at 60km.
As far as I know the only way to actually reach 60 km is to use javelins, but that sacrifices 10% of your damage as well as using T2 launchers instead of Navy launchers which is an additional damage reduction.
Also, I do believe that the Nightmare and Paladin do the same damage. No more no less for either. Tracking speed does not directly amount to more damage but it can.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.03.26 05:43:00 -
[22]
Paladin 
I might be a bit off as well I have used a tach paladin, nightmare, and a cruise golem. I really cba to do it up torp style.
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Dirty Hands
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Posted - 2009.03.26 08:00:00 -
[23]
I also fly all of them, but i find Nightmare best so far, it has the tracking bonus and so you can use T2 tachs with Amarr Multifreqs at almost any range between 10-60km for cruisers and BC, and a lot closer for BSes. It als o has a huge alfa that means it one volleys any non BS npc in range. The exceptions are Angel and sometime Gurista. Basically you clear all the smaller rats in a little more volleys than their number.
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TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.26 08:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Trinity Storm
Poor Rattlesnake always gets left out of the equation.
Thats because the damage is bleh. Tank is great though.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Honestly, the winner here is the Kronos....
It tanks like a Paladin although the Paladin has more balanced resists and bigger capacitor. It does a little less damage (comparing Tachs to 425s*), but it has a nice tracking bonus and it does Kinetic/Thermal instead of EM/Thermal so there are fewer NPC types that it does poorly against. It also has a bigger drone bay so you more flexibility there.
And who the heck doesn't love a Golden Megathron?
*As a side note, how do Paladins do with Pulse Lasers? A Kronos will have some serious range issues with blasters but the raw DPS potential makes me giggle.
They do very very well, there's hardly any real reason to use tachyons for missions - on the paladin, just on the nightmare. Scorch places optimal just outside of tractor range, which is what really matters. Tracking is much much better, RoF is better(which is pretty important when clearing out the smaller ships, which will instapop either way - if you hit(Tracking!)). You lose some theoretical dps at scorch range, you gain alot of pratical dps at the range 0-45km.
As for the kronos, the damage is pretty poor, as in poor enough to make the golem take the cake once again, the odd drone bandwidth doesn't serve it much good and unless you can launch a set of sentries/heavies 75m3 is really all the dronebay you need for the absolute majority of missions.
In my eyes the only ship that should go with long range guns, is the kronos. It's also the reason why it's the worst marauder.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 591500
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.03.26 11:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Traderboz
I honestly have no clue where a few people in this thread are coming up with these statements. Nightmare has longer optimal...? What? I thought at first you may have intended to say it has a longer targeting range, but actually the Paladin wins that contest.
It has more mid/low and rigslots, and the tracking bonus, so you could say it has better optimal, better tracking, better dps.
Pally has the tractors and the cargobay.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.03.26 12:16:00 -
[27]
Stick to Nightmare when going up against EM weak opponents and use Golem for rest of them. Best sides from both worlds.
I would say that Nightmare is slightly better suited for missioning than Paladin, unless you are one of those who loot in same ship you run missions. Altho at the end of day a effectivity difference between them is mostly cosmetic. Ie 30 seconds to 1 minute per mission and even that not too consistent.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.03.26 14:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Carniflex
Altho at the end of day a effectivity difference between them is mostly cosmetic. Ie 30 seconds to 1 minute per mission and even that not too consistent.
30 seconds, 30 seconds, half my kingdom for another 30 seconds off.
Or was it the full kingdom, I can't remember.
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Airyal
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Posted - 2009.03.26 20:17:00 -
[29]
I'm in a similar dilema. however I just want either Paladin or Nightmare to run my lvl 4 amarr navy missions. just dont know which one? not worried about loot, just speed mission for bonus, lp, and occasionaly looting of main ship i killed in mission.
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Boz Wel
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Posted - 2009.03.26 21:36:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Airyal
I'm in a similar dilema. however I just want either Paladin or Nightmare to run my lvl 4 amarr navy missions. just dont know which one? not worried about loot, just speed mission for bonus, lp, and occasionaly looting of main ship i killed in mission.
I'd go Nightmare then. Paladin won't do quite the same damage unless you take Marauder to 5 (doubtful), the Nightmare has the wonderful tracking bonus, and it's a vertical ship that's actually good (Sorry, Naglfar ).
The two are similar, but it really comes down to how important that tractor beam bonus is to you.
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