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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:46:00 -
[151]
Forcing bombers in close by making them use siege is almost as hilarious as the, wait for it...wait for it... SHORT RANGE BRAWLING FALCON, hahaha, seriously good joke.
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:47:00 -
[152]
Edited by: fuxinos on 25/03/2009 10:52:03 So to speak, you want to make the Stealth Bomber a single purpose ship?
To make a 25Mil ship able to SHOOT NOTHINGELSE THEN BATTLESHIPS, with a PAPERTHIN TANK , even WORSE RANGE then Cruisers and SLOW SPEED, will turn it into a piece of junk Eve hasnt seen before.
The reasons why such changes would fail are in other words, obviously JUMPING into your face lol.
Drones will even eat you up in 10 or less seconds, any Cruiser will insta pop you, Smartbombs will **** you off, Frigates will PWN you and since you cant shoot anythingelse then bs anyway, you wont even have a single way to defend yourself >.>
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Adaera
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:54:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Adaera on 25/03/2009 10:54:34 I've gotta say, I agree with the Merin view here. When the devs first mentioned torps, this was precisely the change I prayed they wouldn't do.
Why doesn't everyone see the slightly critical flaw of a paper thin 20-30mil isk frigate with no tank in close combat with a battleship? How exactly do you propose they survive an encounter like that? Their non existant tank will crumple to a couple of frigate weapons in seconds, let alone the inevitable swarms of warrior IIs.
And the point a lot seem to be overlooking here; you're that close, anything and everything can lock you. Bye bye cloak.
Please reconsider this... ___________________
I for one welcome our new bee overlords |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:06:00 -
[154]
I like it.
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Morpheus77
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:15:00 -
[155]
Ok, nice that u look at SB after years of whining from part of the player base but... 1. Please consider that SB are the best ships for ratting in 0.0 - low sec, as they are now. Maybe even in low class WHs, but haven't tested yet. 2. Regarding Covops Cloak, I would like to have one, but if that makes SB overpowered, the idea of making them go around 1000m/s cloaked is good, though a SB bomber run should be based on surprise. If you show up on grid/stargate/station etc and then cloak, element of surprise is lol. 3. Not very experienced in PvP, but I think that when u are to use a slow/short ranged weapon like torpedoes, whilst beeing in a slow(no speed + no agility) and paperthin ship, u need adequate fleet support from other non stealthy ship types. 4. Best proposition from me to be used in tandem with their role (STEALTH bombers) would be, to make their sig equal to an interceptor. It is ridiculous to be able to lock a stealth ship, in the same time or less as a heavy assault (and not paperthin) frigate. 5. And dont forget: At 30km from a BS, u can be warp disrupted and neutralized. At least, please keep cruise missiles.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:22:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
.
I usually disagree with you. But about the anti capital ship weapon I wil open an exception and say would be great. But the issue arise in that there is no system in eve that has bonuses based on what its being used at. Therefore would need some coding to solve it.
Maybe.... stealth bombers being able to fit Citatel launchers? That woudl be 14k alpha strike (With the deemed 10% per level bonuses and 2 BCU) and about 430 dps. VERY good damage but only usable against capital ships or Battleships when heavily target painted.
I don't think insta popping a carrier is OK. Too much isk out without the target being able to do anything. But with this configuration 20 bombers can put a 1 rep carrier down in a few minutes. They can also be use das HUGE alpha strike after a capital is engaged and its being kept for example at low armor by enemy RR. huge alpha cross the armor and brign the fight back to hull etc,.....
That could be a CHEAP counter to capital blobs and help solve one of the big issues in modern eve warfare that is the excessive capital power. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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TooNu
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:26:00 -
[157]
STEALTHBOMBERS Firstly and currently, get it into your heads that the Stealth Bomber is a "glass-cannon" meaning it has large possibility for damage for such a small ship however it has no tank ability what so ever and will explode if anything targets it and fires, or gets close and fires. We thrive on getting as much damage into a target in the shortest time possible. "Why is it a glass cannon?" Well if a stealth bombers purpose is to uncloak and fire a volley of missiles at a target to destroy it quickly in 1-2 volleys. It needs to do that 1 job properly so it needs it's mid slots and low slots to help do its job effectively; ergo it needs sensor boosters/sensor dampners/target painters/passive targetter/ballistic control units to get the basic job done.
Currently there are the sensor dampner setup, the long range sensor booster setup and the close range sensor booster setup. Slight variations on each will occur due to module choice.
- Orbit your target/gate cloaked at your optimal firing range. - Engage launchers. - Uncloak. - Engage Midslots whatevr they maybe: Sensor booster(s), dampners, afterburner. - Target your enemy. Missiles away. - Wait out the time the missiles take to reach the target. Second volley fires. Wait more. - If the target explodes or runs away, good job. If he doesn't, however, your setup chosen defence is your only salvation. Either cloak up if you are not targetted, align and warp away. If the target is a small fast ship, this might mean you need to align right away and GTFO of there.
Why Damps? They are the tank for your ship. You need to limit the targets chances at locking you so you can recloak or simply warp off. The closer the target is the less control you have over the fight. this does mean you are firing from about 70-100km. They also allow you to fire that extra volley perhaps, if you have time and distance.
"Sensor booster setups" - Same pattern as above but here you will either have range on your side (range script) which is your defence but missiles take longer to impact giving the target time to move faster or warp off or you lock faster (scan res script) and get that 1 volley kill to a stationary object.
Now let's look at the modules currently in play that actually make at least some sense for a SB pilot to use.
HIGH's - All stealth bomber pilots fit essentially 3 cruise launchers and a cloak of some sort (improved or prototype) leaving the last high slot for a salvager, tractor beam, probe launcher.
MID's (a collection of choice here depending on your own effectivness) - A passive targetter buys you 2-3 seconds on an unwary target at first if he can't see missiles heading towards him or your red flashy ship on the overview. - Target Painter. While limited by a short range they increase the signature radius of a ship thus increasing your damage done. - Shield extenders/resistance mod's/boosters. Increase your buffer tank but only usefull IF you can warp off. - Sensor boosters. Increase range+scan res' or individually based on preference. - Sensor dampners. Decrease the targets ability at targetting you within a set distance. You can not uncloak and fire within that distance or you make them redundant. - Fitting an MWD is no use due to current CPU/PG requirements. - Fitting an AB is no use if it will reduce the tank (armor/shield extenders/boosters) or targetting ability (sensor boosters, passive targetters, target painters) ALSO it will use up more CPU and PG that we do not have.
LOW's (a collection based on your own effectivness) - Ballistic Control Units. Along with the highslot choices these are essenial even if you only fit 1. - Overdrive injectors. Extra speed boost uncloaked and cloaked. - Inertia stabilizers. Aligning faster. Great when coming through a gate for faster warp off or getting out of jams by warping you faster. - Nanofibers. Extra speed but not comparable to Overdrives or Iniertia stab's
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TooNu
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:26:00 -
[158]
RIGs - 1 or 2 of any of the following depending on your preference for your chosen tactic. - Bay loading Accelerator I. 10% rate of fire bonus. - Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I. 15% velocity bonus (this also increases your range by the way). - Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I. 10% missile damage done. - Warhead Flare Catalyst I. Explosion Velocity Bonus 15 %. - Warhead Rigor Catalyst I. Explosion Radius Bonus -15%.
- The Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I is utterly useless currently. Flight Time Bonus 15% does not compare to faster missiles/more damage/faster rate of fire/better signature radius modifiers. Why would you want 15% more chase time on your missiles? Either fire, wait, fire, run. Or Fire, wait, fire, smile/die. You won't be hanging around waiting for it to eventually hit.
ONLY usefull on torpedo boats that don't mind sacrificing damage for range, but then, why sacrifice damage for range? Surely you want the torpedos to do more damage than cruise missiles otherwise, why reduce your torpedos to cruise missile style damage? why would you not then just use cruise missiles?
If we look at the changes you propose and then look at the ships current forms, then propose what would happen to the current techniques of fitting and usage.
The ships - The Manticore/Nemesis have 4 mid slots. They will have to use them for a shield/speed tank because with 2 lows they sure as hell are not an armor tank. They will need the cpu and grid and uncloaked velocity to fit a tank worthy enough to survive being Warp disrupted and blasted to hell long enough to get out of range for a warp off without sacrificing their range from the mid slot modules from 3-4 to 1-2.
- The Hound/Purifier has 3 mids and 3 lows. They will have to use their low slots for a tank thus reducing their damage output. They can not fit them if tank is in the way. They will need the cpu and grid and uncloaked velocity to fit a tank worthy enough to survive being Warp disrupted and blasted to hell long enough to get out of range for a warp off without mitigating their low slot damage bonuses from 1 BCU to 0.
Torpedos - Torpedos current short range and low damage means the SB needs to lock in under 1 second. Fire, and out right kill it's target or the following happens: - The target or the targets friend travels to you, scram/disruptor, web, damage output. You explode. - The target or the targets friend travels to you, you warp out, torpedos do not hit. No effect other than wasted ammo. - You can not out damage or out tank a battleship. You move to get out of disruptor range. Your tank MUST hold in that time or you explode. - We must be able to fire torpedos at longer range than is currently available without mitigating damage too much.
- Stealthbombers getting up close to anything even with a reasonable tank or in a gang of 3-5 manticores is going to be tackled VERY fast and dead within seconds. - Stealth bombers are not in the "brawler" class of ships such as assault frigates or destroyers. - Range is the key to a stealthbombers survival. A healthy balance between range and rate of fire, missile velocity is more than needed or your ship becomes better at survivabilty but further reduced from it's purpose of damage output.
Cloaking - Currently we can not warp cloaked or use the covert ops cloak. Ok fine, but in order to fire torpedos faster we need better bonuses to target time reduction upon decloak because short range = You explode. It has to be a quick mechanic with compromise. - If you take an old western where 2 guys are going to shoot each other but the faster more accurate draw wins, then the Manticore uncloak is the equivelent of fumbling with your holster as you "Draw!".
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TooNu
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:27:00 -
[159]
Examples of torpedo combat.
A step by step 'what will happen for a torpedo using SB pilot fighting a battleship'. - Circle your target area at some close 30-40km range. - Circle target upon arrival. - Engage torpedos. - Uncloak. - Engage mids and target. - Fire. Wait. - The target starts to target you disabling your cloak. - The target moves to you to get you in disruptor range. - Fire. Wait. - The target opens fire. You are left with the choice of, "I can tank this damage" or "ouch, time to go" - In which case you. Move to get out of disruptor range as you SHOULD be faster than a battleship, hopefully your tank holds. - Continue to orbit at distance and damage him. Sadly in this case you can't warp jam him OR web him so he can get back to the gate/station OR he can warp away.
A step by step 'what will happen if a gang of torpedo using SB pilots fight a battleship'. - Circle your target area at some close 30-40km range. - Circle target upon arrival. - Engage torpedos. - Uncloak. - Engage mids and target. - Fire. Wait. - Target explodes if the damage output of all of you outweighs his ill-equipped ship. OR - The target does exactly as in the above example but at a much more stressed rate. In other words, he decides faster if he wants to tank and gank all of you or warps off. - The gang will be more relaxed letting each individual decide when to move and warp out if needed.
This gang scenario is based on same fit setup in a gatecamp waiting for a sole battleship to enter. For the sake of arguement let's say we have more CPU and the following fit for 6 manticores: HIGH Cloak 3 torps MID 1 small shield extender 1 afterburner 2 sensor boosters with scan res' scripts. LOW 2x Ballistic control unit
(You could have for example 6 Manticore Stealthbombers 1 ship with 4 target painters at range with overdrive and a signal amplifier, 1 short range bomber with sensor dampners, and a disruptor, and 4 strictly damage output short range bombers with sensor boosters+scan res' scripts)
Conclussion Would the torpedo stealth bomber by any better than what we have now? It is still a balancing act. On one hand you have the short range ability able to inflict massive damage on a much larger ship which was previously unobtainable. On the other hand you are in such short range that you need a much MUCH better tank or escape ability to avoid your certain death at the hands of a small tackler or the battleships vastly supieror tank and damage output. Would it not suffice to look at the current useage of the stealth bomber (I have explained it all above incase you missed it) and think how you can improve it without taking it too far with this torpedo road?
- Think about missile velocity bonuses over damage, or rate of fire over damage or even damage bonuses over rate of fire and velocity.
- Cloaking, how can it be improved? would it suffice to just allow the covert ops cloaking device OR would it be better to reduce the lock time penalties further with the current cloak system?
- Should all the current mechanics stay the same but the torpedo manticore gains bonuses to Torpedo range and rate of fire over damage?
- The stealthbomber is very weak up close and can't tank or out damage a battleship.
- You can't give the stealth bomber massive increases in CPU or PG to warrant a worthy short range tank otherwise every stealth bomber pilot would fit a hound with 3 BCUs 2 damage rigs 3 scan res' sensor boosters and 1 shot a cruiser.
- All battleships have drone bays, at close ranges a battleship does not even need to use it's primary weapons to kill you. So having a smaller sig radius does not help you here.
Lastly, I have tried to look at this with only the facts in mind over personal preference's offering only possible solutions and I could eventually cite every possible setup and every possible counter but it would only paint a picture of what you should allready by now relise. To everyone else, I hope I am not too wrong in parts where I might be and I don't say all of this as "the law" of stealthbombers, I am just concerned and want to try and help. I am sure some of you do just fine with your rocket fits.....
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:36:00 -
[160]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 25/03/2009 11:40:32 I fly bombers, alot.
the main issue here is that once within range, your going to get prawned due to bombers utter crappy speed (uncloaked) if please factor in the useage of afterburners in your grid usage, that way we are still vulnerable to warrior II's but a BS will have issues tracking the bomber.
right now bombers move so slowly and have such issues fitting propultion mods (without sacrificing slots and leaving stuff empty due to cpu burn and power useage) that what your proposing would result in the bomber being 1 shotted by the battleship.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin I will use the Manticore for an example of what would be an appropriate fit, at Covert Ops V:
High:
3x Covert Warhead Launcher (5x cruise missile or 1x bomb each) 1x Covert Ops Cloak 1x Covert Cynosural Field Generator
Mid:
1x 1mn Microwarpdrive II 1x Small Cap Booster II 1x Medium Shield Extender II 1x Warp Disruptor II
Low:
2x Ballistic Control System II
Rig:
2x Any non-launcher rig (or launcher rigs, but requires max skills to avoid using a co-processor).
Bonuses:
Caldari Frigate: +5% bomb and missile kinetic damage and -16.66% cruise missile explosion radius per level. Covert Ops: +5% bomb and missile damage per level, 96-100% CPU reduction for cloaking devices.
Role bonus: -100% recalibration delay, able to fit covert warhead launchers and covert cynosural field generators.
This puts bombers in their proper place in the T2 frigate line:
Lol, Merin asking for a overpowered frigate is not going to work.
/Theo
Dark Materials |
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Thercon Jair
Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:36:00 -
[161]
As was already pointed out by other people:
You can only use bombers well when you camp with them and you're already in position and cloaked when targets come in.
Imagine you have to warp in uncloaked, then make it within 20km of your prey...
1. they warp off as soon as they see you 2. they will try to uncloak you as soon as they see you
So, not very practical. If that role should work, it needs to be able to warp in cloaked.
Other than that, maybe some explosion radius reduction is still in order, seeing that you have limited slots available on a Bomber, and that you can't even hit all BS for full damage even though they are only moving without the aid of a propulsion mod (Tempest, Typhoon surely, some others might also get a damage reduction at 100m/s). It would be great if they could hit BCs for full or nearly full damage. If you reduce the bombers range of targets to BS and up you're going to limit their use even more than now. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar! |
Morpheus77
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:40:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Thercon Jair
If you reduce the bombers range of targets to BS and up you're going to limit their use even more than now.
This!
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Jalif
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:42:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Jalif on 25/03/2009 11:48:12 I'm am quite happy with the change, but somehow it also doens't feel good at all.
I honestly don't care about the damage modifier, I would prefere to see a missile velocity or flight time bonus. It would be still in danger of interceptors and other frigates but not from a BS. I think the range should be about 50/70km (outside of drone range).
Also it sounds nice that a bomber would be able to take down a BS without getting locked. However this is an ideal situation that just doesn't exsist. These days you don't find a BS alone - its always in a large gang and multiply stealthbombers are not going to work against a large gang, interceptors or even cruisers would lock those ships in time. You still need interceptors to tackle them which will be neuted & send warriors after.
Lets go back to the ideal situation. Even with the (nerfed/new/balanced) falcon, you are better of flying that one + hac. It cost more but you will be able to take onto 2/3 BS's + its also effective against BC & Cruisers. Not even t2 ships are needed for this, a simple brutix & blackbird will do the job for a cheaper price then the ceptor and bomber
People won't use the Stealth bomber because other setups just work better & cheaper. We might see them used at POS's to take guns down if you don't have capitals. But then its still going to take a pain in the ass load of time. So no use for them either.
I prefere to see them as anti-blob or anti-pos ships that can be used by small alliances & small corporations. Why not make bombs more usefull and better? Let them have a lower area of effects but higher damage. Make them also usefull in lowsec & highsec and get the risk of getting sentries or concorddokken. But balance it so it won't be used against small individuals which will have the possibility to complete nerf solo or small gang which the falcon is already doing at this moment.
Idea really sounded great in perfect situation where you find a lonely BS but in practice this is really not going to work at all. Give the bomber a role that no other ship can fullfill, we already got enough DPS ships.
EDIT: I also remember that CCP said they want to premote smallgang warfare (which is completely **** now) - Stealth bomber could be a great solution for this. So Try to make a ship that is great for solo/small gang pvp instead of making it a ship "the more the better".
|Black Sinisters| |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:45:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
We do have enough ways of dealing with battleships so no need for another "counter" which will die to said BS anyways (really engaging geddon or AC pest with 5 bombers will leave you with 5 dead bombers).
Make them even less fun to fly be restricting what they can attack? Also, if 20 T2 frigs could instapop a Carrier, Capital ships would be useless altogether.
With torps they will be pretty much restricted to attacking caps, BS and BC. Problem is: they will not kill BS or BC before the ship kills them. Thus: they are reduced to ganking role in frig/larger gangs. And ANY ship can do exactly same thing: gank.
With idea i spewed about (anti cap-ship role) they would actually become quite useful. Cap ships are already abundant in game both in lowsec and in 0.0. You can easily move around 0.0 and see 10-20 caps daily. And the role of designated cap-ship killer is the role this game lacks.
Also 20 frigs instapopping carrier is not "imbalanced". First i already posted that ROF should be low. One carrier per 5 minutes? Thats slower than cap ships die in cap fights. Thats slower than carriers dying to BS gangs. So "why the hell bother?". Because caps arent good at killing frigs. Carriers are decent/good at killing BS gangs but they do suck vs frigs. This will force them to actually use more support ships to deal with the threat. Destroyers? Ceptors? Dictors - they would be needed to keep caps alive from bomber attempts. In the end carrier blob will work - till someone brings bombers and just instapops them 1by1 befor ethey get lock back.
Also like i stated: it doesnt have to be their "main" role. For all i care it could be bomb/torpedo launcher module (even taking most/all grid/cpu) so you refit for this particular role.
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Seishomaru
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:46:00 -
[165]
Few things I disagree. Signature always helps. Most droens around a BS are ogres or hammerheads. Being very small helps a LOT on not being hit by the first salvo while they are still MWding towards you.
With torps and when you have enough alpha in team there is no reason to fire at 30 km. Fire at 3-4 km The enemy will have no time to react. If you carry a passive targeting (going along the idea some fitting capabilities could be changed) the BS will not auto target you. The enemy WILL take about 2 seconds to realise something is up (plus his own lag) and try to lock you. By that time he is dead.
Also when the guy blink yellow in overview he is not targeting you, he has already targeted. While he is targeting you CAN STILL CLOAK. I do it all fricking time!
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:51:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
.
I usually disagree with you. But about the anti capital ship weapon I wil open an exception and say would be great. But the issue arise in that there is no system in eve that has bonuses based on what its being used at. Therefore would need some coding to solve it.
Maybe.... stealth bombers being able to fit Citatel launchers? That woudl be 14k alpha strike (With the deemed 10% per level bonuses and 2 BCU) and about 430 dps. VERY good damage but only usable against capital ships or Battleships when heavily target painted.
I don't think insta popping a carrier is OK. Too much isk out without the target being able to do anything. But with this configuration 20 bombers can put a 1 rep carrier down in a few minutes. They can also be use das HUGE alpha strike after a capital is engaged and its being kept for example at low armor by enemy RR. huge alpha cross the armor and brign the fight back to hull etc,.....
That could be a CHEAP counter to capital blobs and help solve one of the big issues in modern eve warfare that is the excessive capital power.
That was exactly my idea. Tho i'd try to stay away from capital launchers because of price (said bomber would cost 100ish mil isk at which price its better to bring BS). Just give another role for bomb launcher or another module (anti-capital torpedo launcher or sth). But yeh the idea was huge alpha usable only vs caps.
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Jalif
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:54:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Seishomaru Few things I disagree. Signature always helps. Most droens around a BS are ogres or hammerheads. Being very small helps a LOT on not being hit by the first salvo while they are still MWding towards you.
With torps and when you have enough alpha in team there is no reason to fire at 30 km. Fire at 3-4 km The enemy will have no time to react. If you carry a passive targeting (going along the idea some fitting capabilities could be changed) the BS will not auto target you. The enemy WILL take about 2 seconds to realise something is up (plus his own lag) and try to lock you. By that time he is dead.
Also when the guy blink yellow in overview he is not targeting you, he has already targeted. While he is targeting you CAN STILL CLOAK. I do it all fricking time!
Bomber would be a still a lol ship. First of all, you never see a BS alone, or barely. Just to get enough alpha in the team you might need 20bombers and few interceptors for the job. Srry, but if I could choose between 20bomber+2ceptors or 22gank cruiser or 22recons or 22 battleships I know I would definatly not use for the first fleet setup. Atleast with the other setups I have the ablitity to engage more then 1 type of target. And the more large amount of targets I engage, the better I can deal with all the situations. I see a whole bomber gang being screwed over by just simple t1 frigates.
|Black Sinisters| |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:01:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: Seishomaru Few things I disagree. Signature always helps. Most droens around a BS are ogres or hammerheads. Being very small helps a LOT on not being hit by the first salvo while they are still MWding towards you.
With torps and when you have enough alpha in team there is no reason to fire at 30 km. Fire at 3-4 km The enemy will have no time to react. If you carry a passive targeting (going along the idea some fitting capabilities could be changed) the BS will not auto target you. The enemy WILL take about 2 seconds to realise something is up (plus his own lag) and try to lock you. By that time he is dead.
Also when the guy blink yellow in overview he is not targeting you, he has already targeted. While he is targeting you CAN STILL CLOAK. I do it all fricking time!
Bomber would be a still a lol ship. First of all, you never see a BS alone, or barely. Just to get enough alpha in the team you might need 20bombers and few interceptors for the job. Srry, but if I could choose between 20bomber+2ceptors or 22gank cruiser or 22recons or 22 battleships I know I would definatly not use for the first fleet setup. Atleast with the other setups I have the ablitity to engage more then 1 type of target. And the more large amount of targets I engage, the better I can deal with all the situations. I see a whole bomber gang being screwed over by just simple t1 frigates.
THIS.
Problem shown to you on hand. Alpha too low and its quite possible that half of the bombers will not survive to fire second salvo (vs hostile gang that is). Vs single BS? All you need are 2-3 ships so why need 20 bombers?
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Murkelost
FinFleet Band of Brothers Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:19:00 -
[169]
Stealth Bombers can kill battleships with cruise launchers too, its just a question of numbers.
I wouldn't suggest to remove cruise launcher ability from SB`s, however adding the ability to choose between torp or cruise launchers gives people the choice wether they want to bash close up and personal or strike at range. And yeah please fix the bomb launcher part while youŠre at it. But I wouldnŠt find it satisfying to have the cruise launcher ability exchanged for torp launchers.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:33:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
.
I usually disagree with you. But about the anti capital ship weapon I wil open an exception and say would be great. But the issue arise in that there is no system in eve that has bonuses based on what its being used at. Therefore would need some coding to solve it.
Maybe.... stealth bombers being able to fit Citatel launchers? That woudl be 14k alpha strike (With the deemed 10% per level bonuses and 2 BCU) and about 430 dps. VERY good damage but only usable against capital ships or Battleships when heavily target painted.
I don't think insta popping a carrier is OK. Too much isk out without the target being able to do anything. But with this configuration 20 bombers can put a 1 rep carrier down in a few minutes. They can also be use das HUGE alpha strike after a capital is engaged and its being kept for example at low armor by enemy RR. huge alpha cross the armor and brign the fight back to hull etc,.....
That could be a CHEAP counter to capital blobs and help solve one of the big issues in modern eve warfare that is the excessive capital power.
That was exactly my idea. Tho i'd try to stay away from capital launchers because of price (said bomber would cost 100ish mil isk at which price its better to bring BS). Just give another role for bomb launcher or another module (anti-capital torpedo launcher or sth). But yeh the idea was huge alpha usable only vs caps.
Create new launcher. Only SB can fit it. Can carry limited number of Citatel torps ( like 5 salvoes ). Make it cheap. PRoblems solved ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Jalif
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:53:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
.
I usually disagree with you. But about the anti capital ship weapon I wil open an exception and say would be great. But the issue arise in that there is no system in eve that has bonuses based on what its being used at. Therefore would need some coding to solve it.
Maybe.... stealth bombers being able to fit Citatel launchers? That woudl be 14k alpha strike (With the deemed 10% per level bonuses and 2 BCU) and about 430 dps. VERY good damage but only usable against capital ships or Battleships when heavily target painted.
I don't think insta popping a carrier is OK. Too much isk out without the target being able to do anything. But with this configuration 20 bombers can put a 1 rep carrier down in a few minutes. They can also be use das HUGE alpha strike after a capital is engaged and its being kept for example at low armor by enemy RR. huge alpha cross the armor and brign the fight back to hull etc,.....
That could be a CHEAP counter to capital blobs and help solve one of the big issues in modern eve warfare that is the excessive capital power.
That was exactly my idea. Tho i'd try to stay away from capital launchers because of price (said bomber would cost 100ish mil isk at which price its better to bring BS). Just give another role for bomb launcher or another module (anti-capital torpedo launcher or sth). But yeh the idea was huge alpha usable only vs caps.
Principle is nice, but just using the stealthbombers as anti-capitals is just meh. Notticed that not everything is just capitals. There is also lowsec and non-capital fights.
EVEN with capital fights those stealthbombers are going to be useless. Want to know why? How are you going to tackle it? Just with 2 ceptors? Heavy Dictor? - Just shoot one of them down and good bye, capitals flies away. Whole fleet? Can't wait to see a whole bomber team being ****d by some smartbombs, interceptors, or warriors from other ships. Did I also mention sniping HAC's?
Other problem to use it against capitals. I've havent been in 0.0 often, but this aplies for lowsec to. If there is such a big fight going on with the drones out and all kind of ships zooming around & wrecks. If you get close, shoot, and you want to cloak again, you just might not able to because of one or another thing that is 2.5km away from you. You just try to co-ordinate such attack of bombers close range, while a 15BS fleet with 5 logistics still would kill a carrier OR 2 and still be able to engage other targets.
Trying to make bombers just anti-capital or anti-bs is not going to work at all since any other fleet combination will outperform. If you are using these kind of tactics you are basicly not using the "optimal" condition of each single member in your fleet.
The bomber as now is not going to chance anything but make it even more **** then it already is. Give it a damn role which other ships can do. Like I said again, we got enough DPS ships in the game, enough variantion in between, We don't NEED another!
|Black Sinisters| |
Takeshi Yamato
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Posted - 2009.03.25 12:54:00 -
[172]
I believe changing them to use only torps is a bad idea. It's just too big of a change. Non-caldari players trained cruise missiles only for their bomber.
How about letting them use both torps and cruise launchers?
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Soldur
Helljumpers Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:14:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Soldur on 25/03/2009 13:15:23
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The main way we are looking at changing the stealth bombers is switching them to fit siege launchers and use torpedoes focusing on a anti-battleship role. Each bomber would gain a damage bonus to its racial damage torpedo of 10% per level) in addition to being able to fit 3 siege launchers as now.
ohhh i see because a damn stealth bomber would last how long vs a battleship in siege missile range.
though does it matter does anyone fly these crap ships for pvp make them cloak while warping and they might be useful
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:17:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Jalif Edited by: Jalif on 25/03/2009 13:03:10
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Im still wondering why anti-BS instead of anti-cap ships system? make 20 bombers able to instapop carrier (bomb launchers anyone?) with 5 minute rof or something. Or just give em 500% bonus damage vs capital ships.
.
I usually disagree with you. But about the anti capital ship weapon I wil open an exception and say would be great. But the issue arise in that there is no system in eve that has bonuses based on what its being used at. Therefore would need some coding to solve it.
Maybe.... stealth bombers being able to fit Citatel launchers? That woudl be 14k alpha strike (With the deemed 10% per level bonuses and 2 BCU) and about 430 dps. VERY good damage but only usable against capital ships or Battleships when heavily target painted.
I don't think insta popping a carrier is OK. Too much isk out without the target being able to do anything. But with this configuration 20 bombers can put a 1 rep carrier down in a few minutes. They can also be use das HUGE alpha strike after a capital is engaged and its being kept for example at low armor by enemy RR. huge alpha cross the armor and brign the fight back to hull etc,.....
That could be a CHEAP counter to capital blobs and help solve one of the big issues in modern eve warfare that is the excessive capital power.
That was exactly my idea. Tho i'd try to stay away from capital launchers because of price (said bomber would cost 100ish mil isk at which price its better to bring BS). Just give another role for bomb launcher or another module (anti-capital torpedo launcher or sth). But yeh the idea was huge alpha usable only vs caps.
Principle is nice, but just using the stealthbombers as anti-capitals is just meh. Notticed that not everything is just capitals. There is also lowsec and non-capital fights.
EVEN with capital fights those stealthbombers are going to be useless. Want to know why? How are you going to tackle it? Just with 2 ceptors? Heavy Dictor? - Just shoot one of them down and good bye, capitals flies away. Whole fleet? Can't wait to see a whole bomber team being ****d by some smartbombs, interceptors, or warriors from other ships. Did I also mention sniping HAC's?
Other problem to use it against capitals. I've havent been in 0.0 often, but this aplies for lowsec to. If there is such a big fight going on with the drones out and all kind of ships zooming around & wrecks. If you get close, shoot, and you want to cloak again, you just might not able to because of one or another thing that is 2.5km away from you. You just try to co-ordinate such attack of bombers close range, while a 15BS fleet with 5 logistics still would kill a carrier OR 2 and still be able to engage other targets.
Trying to make bombers just anti-capital or anti-bs is not going to work at all since any other fleet combination will outperform. If you are using these kind of tactics you are basicly not using the "optimal" condition of each single member in your fleet.
The bomber as now is not going to chance anything but make it even more **** then it already is. Give it a damn role which other ships can't do. Like I said again, we got enough DPS ships in the game, enough variantion in between, We don't NEED another!
You don't need to tackle dreadnaughts. They tackle themselves very nicely for 10 minutes ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Trance Dax
Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:29:00 -
[175]
A couple years ago when Bombs were first introduced to EVE, everyone was horrified at the cost / low base damage v.s anything / likely hood of death that was almost certain for the SB pilot, and just simply wrote them off as a bad joke.
Bomb's in principle have the ability to shape battlefields if a certain few tweaks were applied:
1. Change the direction of the bomb's launch to anything other than directly ahead and inline with the travel path of the ship launching it (Down would seem the most logical)
2. Remove the damage reduction vs. sig radius penalty from ALL damage bombs. With a 15 second countdown, anything small enough to be 1 shot by a bomb should be able to get out of range of the explosion as long as they aren't AFK. And anything still remaining within range after the countdown deserves what they get.
3. Give stealth bomber's either of the following: A) They ability to use a Covert Ops cloak along with a decent speed boost effecting both cloaked and uncloaked velocity to atleast allow them to clear their own blast radius and a 0 second recloak timer (the 1 second module cycle is a given) B) they ability to cloak even while being targeted with a standard Improved Cloak II as well as a massive speed boost
4. The suggestion made earlier in this post regarding having Bomb's act like FOF missiles, but selecting targets based on signature radius would be nice, as long as it were a selectable action (like drones and agression) OR allow they SB pilot to pre target the bomb (and only the bomb) while still cloaked
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Skjorta
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:29:00 -
[176]
Torps are a bad idea. Just have to ask yourself what role does this ship actually fill with torps?
SB's are awesome because they are anti-small stuff.
They need to be king of the alpha strike with 1 strike kills if done properly...to make up for their total lack of tank and expense. It's great with cruises...just need to make it so it can hit targets going faster than 100m/s and still do damage.
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Jalif
Minmatar Black Sinisters
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:30:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Jalif on 25/03/2009 13:33:01
Originally by: Kagura Nikon You don't need to tackle dreadnaughts. They tackle themselves very nicely for 10 minutes
And you think that CCP (who buffed HP before to prevent instand death) is going to allow 20 bombers to take down a dread within few min?
Also, do you REALLY think that 20 bombers will be able to shoot at the dread. As far as I have seen & just by commen sence, you barely see a dread alone. Its often supported by other dreads & a whole fleet as backup. Those 20 members are not going to do ANYTHING while that support fleet is there. If you have a fleet that can take down that support fleet you might aswell hop into Battleships.
Just by cloaking, flying away, decloak, shoot, claok etc etc.... all that time you are not shooting, that DPS will go down. You have to have an INSANE alpha to take down a dread with 20 bombers. It simple won't work by just declaok, shoot, claok wait 2 sec and do it again. It simple won't work because a frigate will be in no time in your area and kill. You have to cloak, fly away, come back, decloak, shoot & pray, claok, fly away. Just that flying away and find a new spot to shoot from might take 30sec up to 2min. There is NO way you are going able to take down a dread even with capital weapons on a frigate.
And don't come with the situation that you will find a dread alone engaging at a pos. I know that happens sometime, but those people deserve to die anyway. And I am not going to by a bomber just because such of such a single ocasion that barely happens.
|Black Sinisters| |
van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:30:00 -
[178]
Originally by: TooNu Examples of torpedo combat.
A step by step 'what will happen for a torpedo using SB pilot fighting a battleship'. - Circle your target area at some close 30-40km range. - Circle target upon arrival. - Engage torpedos. - Uncloak. - Engage mids and target. - Fire. Wait. - The target starts to target you disabling your cloak. - The target moves to you to get you in disruptor range. - Fire. Wait. - The target opens fire. You are left with the choice of, "I can tank this damage" or "ouch, time to go" - In which case you. Move to get out of disruptor range as you SHOULD be faster than a battleship, hopefully your tank holds. - Continue to orbit at distance and damage him. Sadly in this case you can't warp jam him OR web him so he can get back to the gate/station OR he can warp away.
You know you *can* cloak while someone is aquiring lock on you? You can also repeatedly fire missiles, cloak, decloak, reaquire lock to avoid missiles from vanishing in space.
Avoiding small drones will be another issue though.
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galphi
Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:33:00 -
[179]
Okay here's my take on bonuses. In this example, it's a Manticore:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.
Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise, Torpedo, and bomb kinetic damage and 7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level
Role Bonus: -99% reduction in Cruise or Siege Launcher powergrid needs, -99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use and -100% targeting delay after decloaking. No speed penalty from cloaking devices.
Increase the base velocity of the bombers by 25%.
Allow bombs and missiles to deal damage even if the bomber has cloaked, or warped off grid.
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Funky Feeling
Ventis Secundis Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.03.25 13:50:00 -
[180]
Wouldn't it be nice if you quit screwing with ships that work right.
It's a stealth bomber.. not a freaking submarine. The cruise missiles are fine but it's main function is a bomber.
Why not fix the range of the sniping battleships and bring them in close. We can get all the ships inside of a 20 km radius... sniping battleships, stalth torpedo submarining bombers and brawling falcons. I'm sure it won't cause any lag or desynch because you have all fixed that for large fleet battles right?
I think the economy in iceland has drained your brains of anything valuable.
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