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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.20 10:49:00 -
[1]
Hi,
does anyone here have this issue too? When Eve is running and I cmd-tab into my Mac desktop, it's all very laggy. Mouse, controls...even browsing internet pages!
Any solutions or fixes or workarounds? Could it be a graphics driver problem?
Thanks!
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Netherby
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Posted - 2009.03.20 11:22:00 -
[2]
What are your system specs?
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.20 11:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Netherby What are your system specs?
sry, here it is:
8core Mac Pro early 2008 Nvidia 8800GT 6GB RAM Leopard Screen resolution: 2560x1600, one screen
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Netherby
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Posted - 2009.03.20 11:40:00 -
[4]
You have the latest OS update I assume?
I'm not getting any issues with my 8core, only 2gb ram and the cheapy Radeon 2600HD.. Although if I Cmd+Tab too much the EVE client seems to like to crash..
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.20 12:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Netherby You have the latest OS update I assume?
I'm not getting any issues with my 8core, only 2gb ram and the cheapy Radeon 2600HD.. Although if I Cmd+Tab too much the EVE client seems to like to crash..
Yes, Leopard is updated.
Interesting to hear that you don't have this issues! Maybe it's somthing with the Nvidia drivers? Also: I play in fullscreen. Maybe I should check the windowed mode...
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.03.20 12:58:00 -
[6]
Open up Force Quit and see if you've only one EVE client running. I was recently playing on my Macbook Pro (same generation as yours) and noticed that two clients were running for some reason.
I'm not generally a Mac player tho, so I'm not sure if this resolves your issue or not. Might want to file a technical petition as well.
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.20 14:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Fallout Open up Force Quit and see if you've only one EVE client running. I was recently playing on my Macbook Pro (same generation as yours) and noticed that two clients were running for some reason.
I'm not generally a Mac player tho, so I'm not sure if this resolves your issue or not. Might want to file a technical petition as well.
Thanks! I'll try this too.
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.20 14:07:00 -
[8]
A common couse of "generalized" slowdowns is heavy disk activity (or worse: trashing).
Open activity monitor and see if there's heavy disk activity.
Also check the System Memory tab: how much of your memory is active, wired, inactive and free? Are the page in/out counters increasing over time? How much swap space is being used?
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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eesn
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Posted - 2009.03.20 23:10:00 -
[9]
I had instances of this, especially when I was low on disk space (OSX doesn't like low free space). The mouse kept jumping around, and it wasn't nice. Also, do check that something else cpu-hungry isn't hogging the machine. (Safari w/ Flash in the background, anyone?) And sometimes Cider gets obnoxious, but at the moment it shouldn't be able to block more than one core?
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2009.03.21 00:40:00 -
[10]
Oh, btw, I use iStat Pro (free, despite the name). It's a great widget to use to get a quick look at how your system is running and the like.
link
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Maria Kalista
Amarr Ihatalo Heavy Industries Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.21 08:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Fallout Oh, btw, I use iStat Pro (free, despite the name). It's a great widget to use to get a quick look at how your system is running and the like.
link
Cool. Thanks for the tip!
Originally by: tentonhammer
One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour! |
Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.21 15:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Denuo Secus on 21/03/2009 15:11:21
Originally by: CCP Fallout Oh, btw, I use iStat Pro (free, despite the name). It's a great widget to use to get a quick look at how your system is running and the like.
link
Thanks for the hint. I'm using iStat menus here
So, I made some tests concerning all your posts. A good indicator is dashboard. Opening dashboard should be very smooth (after loading it initially). Only when my Eve client is running its very jerky. So here my Results:
- No difference in windowd mode - Have only one instance of Eve running in force quit window - Freed up some disk space (was very low indeed ^^) -> no difference with 30GB free now :( - CPU is bored. Eve uses only one core. So my overall CPU usage is approx 16% - I have enough ram free. iStat menu shows wired and active ram as used. So approx 40% here while playing.
Some time ago I read a disscussion thread in any mac forum (cannot find it again - I tried it) about laggy desktop performance while using VMWare fusion. If VMWare is running when the Mac goes to sleep mode, it's all very laggy after waking up again...I'm really not sure if this problem has anything to do with my current Eve client problem.
Unfortunately I have no further ideas. So I think I'll file a technical petition as CCP Fallout suggested.
Thanks for your input here. If someone has another idea please tell it
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SPACE L0RD
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Posted - 2009.03.21 17:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: SPACE L0RD on 21/03/2009 17:03:08 Yes I have this issue with 9600GT but only when I am in station. When I am in space and cmd-tab back to the desktop, it is not laggy. When docked and I cmd-tab, desktop performance is incredibly laggy to the point that using any other program is painful.
it's not a system resource issue, it's a cider/eve thing.
TBH this has been the case with all of the old clients as well however before it could be avoided using windowed mode.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.23 10:23:00 -
[14]
Update.
Here is the solution that works for me (partially):
Originally by: SPACE L0RD Edited by: SPACE L0RD on 21/03/2009 17:03:08 Yes I have this issue with 9600GT but only when I am in station. When I am in space and cmd-tab back to the desktop, it is not laggy. When docked and I cmd-tab, desktop performance is incredibly laggy to the point that using any other program is painful.
it's not a system resource issue, it's a cider/eve thing.
TBH this has been the case with all of the old clients as well however before it could be avoided using windowed mode.
Originally by: SPACE L0RD ...but only when I am in station...
Originally by: SPACE L0RD ...station...
Obviously I never tried it while sitting in space
Tested it yesterday. I have a completely normal behaving Mac desktop when not docked at station! But once docked - the lag begins. I also checked my system resources while docked and while in space - as posted above, no bottlenecks noticeable.
Many thanks for that hint. It seems it is really a cider thing. @Devs: is this issue solvable anytime soon?
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eesn
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Update. Tested it yesterday. I have a completely normal behaving Mac desktop when not docked at station! But once docked - the lag begins. I also checked my system resources while docked and while in space - as posted above, no bottlenecks noticeable.
Is the "disable station environment" setting still there? Try fiddling with that?
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: eesn
Originally by: Denuo Secus Update. Tested it yesterday. I have a completely normal behaving Mac desktop when not docked at station! But once docked - the lag begins. I also checked my system resources while docked and while in space - as posted above, no bottlenecks noticeable.
Is the "disable station environment" setting still there? Try fiddling with that?
Unfortunatelly it is not there any more.
I have a few questions for those that notice this problem: what card and, more importantly, how much VRAM (the graphic memory) do you have? What other applications are active? Does this happen both with windowed EvE and by alt-tabbing away from fullscreen? If you leave activity monitor open, how's the CPU usage going to change?
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.24 00:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ami Nia I have a few questions for those that notice this problem: what card and, more importantly, how much VRAM (the graphic memory) do you have? What other applications are active? Does this happen both with windowed EvE and by alt-tabbing away from fullscreen? How's the CPU usage going to change (If you leave activity monitor open you chan check the graph)?
I have a NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT with 512MB of GDDR3 memory. Other applications running are iTunes, Mail and Safari. I have this problem in fullscreen and in windowed mode as well. CPU usage is low. I guess 15-20% (see my OP regarding my complete system specs).
I made an interesting observation. As posted above the deskop lag appears only while docked at a station. Now I tested a bit around and I found the lag appears also while in warp! Only when normal in space I have no lag when switching to desktop.
I must admit it felt a bit strange - desktop lag when at station and when in warp - so I made several tests. I was able to reproduce it every time. I hope this fact could bring some light into the issue. What is equal when in warp and at station?
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.24 06:37:00 -
[18]
What is your presentation interval? Is it immediate?
RAM usage and CPU usage are not the problem for sure. It sounds more likely VRAM usage and GPU usage are involved here.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Remus Navillum
z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:08:00 -
[19]
I've been having this exact same problem on my 2.4GHz Macbook Pro, with a 256MB GeForce 8600M GT. Desktop lag seems to be lessened while in station by switching to the map in station (where FPS is generally very high), or by being in space and not in warp. Checked for a second client running in the background and found none.
And I too swear by iStat pro, which is showing no memory or CPU bottlenecks. This has been happening since the Apocrypha deployment, but I assumed it was happening to everyone, not just a few people. Kind of weird and annoying. Halp.
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:03:00 -
[20]
Again, this seems not to be a CPU or RAM problem.
More likely the GPU is overloaded, not the CPU. Or the VRAM is used up, not normale RAM.
Do those having this problem see any difference when setting Presentation Interval to anything but Immediate? (I personally set it to 4, for no specific reason).
Also changing (lowering) the texture detail may have some influences (if the problem is with VRAM).
Finally you should check if the system is subject to memory thrashing (use activity monitor and check how the memory values for Swap used, Page ins and Page outs change, and also check disk activity).
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Iskarl
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.24 19:54:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Iskarl on 24/03/2009 19:55:08 I have the same issue on my MacPro 2x2,66ghz/4gb ram/GeForce 7300 GT 256mb vram, under 10.5.6. It happens even when I reduce Eve from the login screen, and without any other application running.
However, I created a new blank user account on my mac, and the problem disappeared when using this account. So it may not be hardware related, but I can't find any software responsible for the lag...
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Remus Navillum
z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:52:00 -
[22]
Hm. None of those, either by themselves or in various combinations, seemed to have any effect. Blaaargh.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.25 01:59:00 -
[23]
Same here. No luck
I tried every presentation interval. Immediate gives me the best fps in game, but no value changed my desktop behavior. I tried different other settings as well - depth buffer, bloom, shadows, color depth...nothing.
Any further help/ideas?
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Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:43:00 -
[24]
The problem here is not finding a solution, but finding the cause.
Untill we understand what is going on, there's no way we can plan a solution.
We know it's not CPU or RAM usage. But is it GPU usage, VRAM usage, slow disk coupled with swap trashing? As I do not have/cannot reproduce that situation I cannot test for it in any way.
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Case Reiderer
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Posted - 2009.03.26 22:46:00 -
[25]
Have any of you tried switching to the map before alt+tabbing? Was having the same issue, couldn't even watch videos while Eve was minimized, but once I started switching to the map the desktop works fine. I know that's not a real "solution," but it works.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.27 10:12:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Verite Rendition on 27/03/2009 10:13:41
Originally by: Ami Nia The problem here is not finding a solution, but finding the cause.
Untill we understand what is going on, there's no way we can plan a solution.
We know it's not CPU or RAM usage. But is it GPU usage, VRAM usage, slow disk coupled with swap trashing? As I do not have/cannot reproduce that situation I cannot test for it in any way.
I've been putting some thought in to this (generally a bad idea) and I have been digging through some of the Mac OS X technical documentation (also a bad idea) and it turns out there are some tools that can help us diagnose this issue.
The Mac OS X development tools include a tool called the OpenGL Driver Monitor. The monitor can query a bunch of data from the video driver (limited to what the driver feels like reporting on) and in the case of the NVIDIA 8xxx series driver, this includes both used and free VRAM.
As best as I can tell, this is doing what it says it's doing and the data is correct, so on my own system I can see how much VRAM is in use. For the sake of a reference point, VRAM use is already at 52MB upon booting, and launching EVE with a character sitting outside of Jita 4-4 pushes that to just shy of 256MB (my 8800GT has 512MB). 2 clients along with all of my other applications gets that to just shy of 512MB. Unfortunately none of the parameters that the Monitor can monitor seem to cover generalized GPU load, so there's no way to tell if a GPU is maxed out in terms of processing power.
If anyone with lag problem wants to diagnose the problem further, they should sign up for the Apple Developers Connection (it's free) so that they can download the development tools. The tools are a bit of a whopper (1GB download) so it's not for the faint of heart.
I for one am curious to see what the VRAM usage is like on a lower-end Mac with everything turned down. It's well known that Quartz is a VRAM hog, so I have strong suspicions that VRAM usage is indeed the problem. However I also don't know what kind of caching algorithm is being used for VRAM management. Watching my own data, I get the impression that it may be aggressive, and I don't know what the outcome of that would be.
I should probably note that Cider also plays a factor here. Since it's a quasi-emulated Direct3D device, the Cider settings define the amount of VRAM to emulate - for EVE it's set to 256MB. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Ami Nia
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:06:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ami Nia on 27/03/2009 15:06:48
Originally by: Verite Rendition I've been putting some thought in to this (generally a bad idea) and I have been digging through some of the Mac OS X technical documentation (also a bad idea) and it turns out there are some tools that can help us diagnose this issue.
LOL @ those bad ideas. I keep having bad ideas like those too.
Originally by: Verite Rendition Unfortunately none of the parameters that the Monitor can monitor seem to cover generalized GPU load, so there's no way to tell if a GPU is maxed out in terms of processing power.
atMonitor does (it's a free beta, for the moment). Also the best monitoring utility out there: Hardware Monitor does, but only if you register it: it's one of the measurements not available in the free version.
Originally by: Verite Rendition If anyone with lag problem wants to diagnose the problem further, they should sign up for the Apple Developers Connection (it's free) so that they can download the development tools. The tools are a bit of a whopper (1GB download) so it's not for the faint of heart.
But the package contains many usefull tools. Sure ... it's going to be more usefull for those with some sort of technical background.
Originally by: Verite Rendition It's well known that Quartz is a VRAM hog, so I have strong suspicions that VRAM usage is indeed the problem.
Probably yes.
But I have not seen the "slowdown", so it's hard for me to diganose it.
Note: I DID see some slowdowns, but those were due to swapped out ram (mainly from Safari: it uses a lot of ram and loves to mark it as a first candidate for swapping).
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers. -- Sheriff Jones
apochribba -- Aurora Morgan
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Shin Chogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.27 15:55:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Shin Chogan on 27/03/2009 15:56:56 I've not been having these problems but for your info verite,
I have a 2.2 GHz SR Macbook Pro with a 128 MB VRAM 8600mgt and 4 GB of RAM. I have modified my eve config file to only use 128MB of VRAM. All settings are on low or unticked except the caching one. Using OpenGL Monitor I monitored : Current free video memory, Current Video Memory in Use and GPU memory utilization After Boot : 71 57 50 Open Safari : 66 62 60 Open Networking Prefs : 59 69 50 Character Selection page : 31 97 530 In Station : 13 115 420 In Space : 10 118 190
One thing I found interesting is that the Current Video Memory in Use doesn't go back down much after Eve/any application that uses VRAM has been exited.
Hope that is of use.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2009.03.27 21:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Case Reiderer Have any of you tried switching to the map before alt+tabbing? Was having the same issue, couldn't even watch videos while Eve was minimized, but once I started switching to the map the desktop works fine. I know that's not a real "solution," but it works.
Wow, that works! Thanks a lot for this idea
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.27 22:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ami Nia atMonitor does (it's a free beta, for the moment).
Just thumbing through the screenshots, it looks like it reports VRAM usage (as a percentage) too, so that's excellent. It's exactly what we need to test this stuff and it's a lot easier to deal with than the dev tools. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
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