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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:19:00 -
[61] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:If CCP make bad game design choices in response to players doing the kind of thing that makes EVE great then the people who legitimately suffer as a consequence will be the CCP employees who find themselves out of work because their game failed and their company went bust.
The players will just go and play a better game. Exactly, as so many keep saying EVE has overall grown consistently over the years, after ccp consistently reinforces it's rules and plug exploits and abuse of there sandbox. Eve has grown over the years because of thingsl ike Hulkageddon. When you tell people about the joys of Eve, you sure as **** don't tell them about staring at an asteroid for three hours or running 'Rogue Drone Harassment' 14 times a day. Not really, I tell them about the huge fleet's I've been part of in nul, about how it truly made me feel like I was a pilot in a spaceship involving thousands ships fighting over who gets the system... I don't mention the actions of self entitled fools who abuse game mechanics to get one up on the game while risking nothing and being fed like babies from there alliance.
You don't mention the best in EvE, player events like Hulkageddon? Thats a pitty, you are not helping EvE grow then. |
DU1 -Sia
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:21:00 -
[62] - Quote
Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:If CCP make bad game design choices in response to players doing the kind of thing that makes EVE great then the people who legitimately suffer as a consequence will be the CCP employees who find themselves out of work because their game failed and their company went bust.
The players will just go and play a better game. Exactly, as so many keep saying EVE has overall grown consistently over the years, after ccp consistently reinforces it's rules and plug exploits and abuse of there sandbox. Eve has grown over the years because of thingsl ike Hulkageddon. When you tell people about the joys of Eve, you sure as **** don't tell them about staring at an asteroid for three hours or running 'Rogue Drone Harassment' 14 times a day. Not really, I tell them about the huge fleet's I've been part of in nul, about how it truly made me feel like I was a pilot in a spaceship involving thousands ships fighting over who gets the system... I don't mention the actions of self entitled fools who abuse game mechanics to get one up on the game while risking nothing and being fed like babies from there alliance. NOFUNALLOWED.JPG Get over yourself. It's a fun contest that came with a full month's warning. The mechanic has been in the game for years, as has Hulkaggedon because Concord doesn;t even give a **** in the lore, let alone mechanics. CCP does not want to remove suicide ganking from the game because it amounts to space vandalism, and that is a thing that PIRATES DO.
So at eve uni they don't teach you how to read a post.. go on tell me where exactly I said they need to remove suicide ganking or fun.
As pointed out every time mass explosions beyond wardecs have occured in highsec CCP have responded, without exception. Hulkageddon is hardly the mass destruction it's made out to be, but all the other events of late will be stacked on top of its numbers due to proximity.
Your from EVE Uni, act like you've had an education in EVE history please. CCP responds to these events and thats why EVE is successful, not because they let it just race away from them uncontrolled.
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Xander Riggs
EVE University Ivy League
179
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I agree with the OP. Look at the past. Stacking MWDs. Fun until everyone started doing it = nerf bat Ghost training. Not a problem until everyone started doing it = nerf bat Nano HACs. A real hoot until everyone started doing it = nerf bat And on and on and on. So where are we now? Ganking miners. YEE HAA! until everyone started doing it = ??? Mr Epeen
This is Hulkaggedon V. Protip: That V isn't a letter.
People have been ganking miners just like this for a very long time, in very, very large numbers, "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands." |
DU1 -Sia
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
If suicide ganking is your only fun in EVE... oh dear. Capital ship and t3 pilots cry best. |
Xander Riggs
EVE University Ivy League
179
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:24:00 -
[65] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:[ So at eve uni they don't teach you how to read a post.. go on tell me where exactly I said they need to remove suicide ganking or fun.
As pointed out every time mass explosions beyond wardecs have occured in highsec CCP have responded, without exception. Hulkageddon is hardly the mass destruction it's made out to be, but all the other events of late will be stacked on top of its numbers due to proximity.
Your from EVE Uni, act like you've had an education in EVE history please. CCP responds to these events and thats why EVE is successful, not because they let it just race away from them uncontrolled.
CCP responds when there's an issue. They called Burn Jita '******* Brilliant.' I doubt they'll suddenly get mad about Hulkaggeddon after five years. "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands." |
DU1 -Sia
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:28:00 -
[66] - Quote
Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:[ So at eve uni they don't teach you how to read a post.. go on tell me where exactly I said they need to remove suicide ganking or fun.
As pointed out every time mass explosions beyond wardecs have occured in highsec CCP have responded, without exception. Hulkageddon is hardly the mass destruction it's made out to be, but all the other events of late will be stacked on top of its numbers due to proximity.
Your from EVE Uni, act like you've had an education in EVE history please. CCP responds to these events and thats why EVE is successful, not because they let it just race away from them uncontrolled.
CCP responds when there's an issue. They called Burn Jita '******* Brilliant.' I doubt they'll suddenly get mad about Hulkaggeddon after five years.
Yeah and "Greed is good" and ambulation was quoted as the same... oh look it affected subs they withdrew there stance and changed it... again learn EVE history.
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Xander Riggs
EVE University Ivy League
179
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:[ So at eve uni they don't teach you how to read a post.. go on tell me where exactly I said they need to remove suicide ganking or fun.
As pointed out every time mass explosions beyond wardecs have occured in highsec CCP have responded, without exception. Hulkageddon is hardly the mass destruction it's made out to be, but all the other events of late will be stacked on top of its numbers due to proximity.
Your from EVE Uni, act like you've had an education in EVE history please. CCP responds to these events and thats why EVE is successful, not because they let it just race away from them uncontrolled.
CCP responds when there's an issue. They called Burn Jita '******* Brilliant.' I doubt they'll suddenly get mad about Hulkaggeddon after five years. Yeah and "Greed is good" and ambulation was quoted as the same... oh look it affected subs they withdrew there stance and changed it... again learn EVE history.
Whatever, chief. They'll lose far, far more subs attacking piracy than they will letting a handful of mining ships get popped because they were too stupid to watch local. Eve has always been a game about murderous space pirates; you'll just have to learn to deal with it. It's one month where mining is marginally more dangerous. The bill is being paid by a third party with in game money using in game means. If they try to take it down, they'll have to rework the whole system and alienate far more people than they'll please. This string of in-game, player reated events has generated far more interest in the game than the generic ongoing wars of the past few years combined. "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands." |
DU1 -Sia
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 03:48:00 -
[68] - Quote
But it isn't ALL about murderous space pirates... I mean what sort of murderous space pirates involve themselves in nearly a decade of thoughtful teaching at I dunno some kind of Space university?
And what kind of murderous space pirates would have nothing to do with murderous space pirate activites when there engaged in there own non (mostly non) murderous activites all throughout the game area's where it is not just allowed but encouraged?
Stop trying to put my argument into your words haven't you noticed yet it doesn't work.
OP made a point that after all the recent activity he feels that CCP will make changes, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with him because that is EXACTLY what CCP have done every time highsec gets messed around with on such a scale (again Hulkageddon itself I don't class as that big a deal) and why wouldn't ccp make changes like they have every other time as EVE is constantly growing and improving with them making such changes.
Your argument is stop doing what works CCP leave it all as it is. EVE is dynamic in that it DOES change all the time. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
210
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:If CCP make bad game design choices in response to players doing the kind of thing that makes EVE great then the people who legitimately suffer as a consequence will be the CCP employees who find themselves out of work because their game failed and their company went bust.
The players will just go and play a better game. Exactly, as so many keep saying EVE has overall grown consistently over the years, after ccp consistently reinforces it's rules and plug exploits and abuse of there sandbox. Eve has grown over the years because of thingsl ike Hulkageddon. When you tell people about the joys of Eve, you sure as **** don't tell them about staring at an asteroid for three hours or running 'Rogue Drone Harassment' 14 times a day. Not really, I tell them about the huge fleet's I've been part of in nul, about how it truly made me feel like I was a pilot in a spaceship involving thousands ships fighting over who gets the system... I don't mention the actions of self entitled fools who abuse game mechanics to get one up on the game while risking nothing and being fed like babies from there alliance.
Would you like to tell me how we're abusing game mechanics? |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
634
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:08:00 -
[70] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:Not really, I tell them about the huge fleet's I've been part of in nul, about how it truly made me feel like I was a pilot in a spaceship involving thousands ships fighting over who gets the system... I don't mention the actions of self entitled fools who abuse game mechanics to get one up on the game while risking nothing and being fed like babies from there alliance.
You know, the first time I heard about EVE, it was back in 2006, and a couple co-workers were talking about how one of them got hotdropped by a pirate titan while he was in a cruiser. As he told me about it, I thought 'Holy hell! This game sound crazy! I gotta check this out.' Now that I know the game, I think he was full of it, but those things do happen nowadays, and things like burn jita and hulkageddon are similar in nature.
Yesterday, I was sitting in the chat room for one of the burn jita live streams, and I saw at least 10 21 day trials handed out in the space of an hour because of burn jita. That was in one chat room that never appeared to break 30 people, and I know there were more. Do you think CCP is upset by this? Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
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Xander Riggs
EVE University Ivy League
180
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:14:00 -
[71] - Quote
DU1 -Sia wrote:But it isn't ALL about murderous space pirates... I mean what sort of murderous space pirates involve themselves in nearly a decade of thoughtful teaching at I dunno some kind of Space university?
And what kind of murderous space pirates would have nothing to do with murderous space pirate activites when there engaged in there own non (mostly non) murderous activites all throughout the game area's where it is not just allowed but encouraged?
Stop trying to put my argument into your words haven't you noticed yet it doesn't work.
OP made a point that after all the recent activity he feels that CCP will make changes, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with him because that is EXACTLY what CCP have done every time highsec gets messed around with on such a scale (again Hulkageddon itself I don't class as that big a deal) and why wouldn't ccp make changes like they have every other time as EVE is constantly growing and improving with them making such changes.
Your argument is stop doing what works CCP leave it all as it is. EVE is dynamic in that it DOES change all the time.
No, my argument is to fix what's actually broken. High sec ganking is not broken. Burn jita is a whopping two day event. Hulkaggedon only lasts a month. Events like these drum up interest in the game, drive ship and module purchases and production, and are generally well recieved by the players.
Also, stop bringing up Eve University like its somehow relevant. Eve Uni is impartial, and many, many of its members go on to become pirates themselves. The idea that you can't help new players while at the same time accepting the game for what it is is downright pants-on-head ********. "No, sorry, you think piracy should be allowed. You're not allowed to learn about wormholes." "A man with a drone-boat has nothing but time on his hands." |
EVE Stig
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
you didnt read the OP did you
Hulkageddon not the Goon temper tantrum
"Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
EVE Stig
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
134
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:20:00 -
[73] - Quote
Xander Riggs wrote:
People have been ganking miners just like this for a very long time, in very, very large numbers,
in very small numbers actually... The Goon temper tantrum in Jita has killed more ships total (ganker and gank um ee) in two days now than the last hulkageddon did in a week. The more HaG happens the less of an impact it has cause anyone other than bots (and me) are smart enough to not mine during it (Ive mined during it the past 5 times in high sec in an untanked hulk and Ive never even been attacked). The more often it happens the more likely miners are to dock up during it but stockpile minerals beforehand so theres really no upswing even in the price.
Hey Goons, you wanna make a rael impact on the game? Hulkageddon year. "Some say that he is actually dead, but the Grim Reaper is too afraid to tell him." "Some say he is the 3rd member of Daft Punk and he did the vocals of "Technologic" song. All we know is,he's called EVE Stig"! |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 04:20:00 -
[74] - Quote
Oh noes CCP might nerf suicide ganking? You mean like they do every expansion? Whatever shall we do. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
210
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 05:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
corestwo wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Xander Riggs wrote:DU1 -Sia wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:If CCP make bad game design choices in response to players doing the kind of thing that makes EVE great then the people who legitimately suffer as a consequence will be the CCP employees who find themselves out of work because their game failed and their company went bust.
The players will just go and play a better game. Exactly, as so many keep saying EVE has overall grown consistently over the years, after ccp consistently reinforces it's rules and plug exploits and abuse of there sandbox. Eve has grown over the years because of thingsl ike Hulkageddon. When you tell people about the joys of Eve, you sure as **** don't tell them about staring at an asteroid for three hours or running 'Rogue Drone Harassment' 14 times a day. Not really, I tell them about the huge fleet's I've been part of in nul, about how it truly made me feel like I was a pilot in a spaceship involving thousands ships fighting over who gets the system... I don't mention the actions of self entitled fools who abuse game mechanics to get one up on the game while risking nothing and being fed like babies from there alliance. Would you like to tell me how we're abusing game mechanics?
I'm still waiting.
I suspect I'll be waiting for quite some time because no abuse of game mechanics occurred today. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1856
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 05:54:00 -
[76] - Quote
GAWD, the ganker EPEEN is swinging large in this thread.
OP is correct and like my dad always said - better get it while the getting is good cuz when it's gone, there ain't no more. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Oh noes CCP might nerf suicide ganking? You mean like they do every expansion? Whatever shall we do.
huh I missed some patchnotes then, other than the insurance nerf that every suicide ganker says didnt matter what all are you talking about? Cause you got tier 3 BCs basically built for suicide ganking, and the insurance thing (that, again everyone has said doesnt matter at all) is the only negative thing I can think of off hand
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Duvida
The Scope Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:23:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:If CCP make bad game design choices in response to players doing the kind of thing that makes EVE great then the people who legitimately suffer as a consequence will be the CCP employees who find themselves out of work because their game failed and their company went bust.
The players will just go and play a better game.
Better game? They might find a different game, but I don't think there's a true competitor to EVE on EVE's level at this time. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
810
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:31:00 -
[79] - Quote
Not advocating a specific side of the discussion here, but you guys may want to remember this. Which slice of this pie do you think it's in CCP's best interests to appeal to, if they have no choice but to do it at the expense of other slices? Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
850
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 06:33:00 -
[80] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:You made them notice that abandoning your drones was a bannable offense. What is this about?
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
634
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 07:26:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Oh noes CCP might nerf suicide ganking? You mean like they do every expansion? Whatever shall we do. huh I missed some patchnotes then, other than the insurance nerf that every suicide ganker says didnt matter what all are you talking about? Cause you got tier 3 BCs basically built for suicide ganking, and the insurance thing (that, again everyone has said doesnt matter at all) is the only negative thing I can think of off hand Well, there are the constant upgrades to CONCORD response time, and changing things the the boomerang maneuver(which wasn't an exploit when I heard about it petitioned years ago, it was 'intelligent use of game mechanics' as long as you eventually died to CONCORD), to name a couple. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 07:52:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Well, there are the constant upgrades to CONCORD response time, and changing things the the boomerang maneuver(which wasn't an exploit when I heard about it petitioned years ago, it was 'intelligent use of game mechanics' as long as you eventually died to CONCORD), to name a couple. Let's all focus our efforts on alphastrike ganking, and see what happens.
It will definitely be interesting to say the least. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Kieron VonDeux
17
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
Xander Riggs wrote:CCP responds when there's an issue. They called Burn Jita '******* Brilliant.' I doubt they'll suddenly get mad about Hulkaggeddon after five years.
I seem to remember the Privateers getting interviewed for a news item just before the great War Dec nerf, because they overplayed the that several years back.
I won't go so far as say that what the OP says is likely but it wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
757
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:25:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Oh noes CCP might nerf suicide ganking? You mean like they do every expansion? Whatever shall we do. huh I missed some patchnotes then, other than the insurance nerf that every suicide ganker says didnt matter what all are you talking about? Cause you got tier 3 BCs basically built for suicide ganking, and the insurance thing (that, again everyone has said doesnt matter at all) is the only negative thing I can think of off hand Well, there are the constant upgrades to CONCORD response time, and changing things the the boomerang maneuver(which wasn't an exploit when I heard about it petitioned years ago, it was 'intelligent use of game mechanics' as long as you eventually died to CONCORD), to name a couple.
The thing is, that Manifesto postnought had it right -- CCP has been coddling high sec for far, FAR too long. There is no way in hell just managing to keep Concord from killing you for a few seconds -- presuming they eventually kill you -- is an exploit. It never has been, nor will it ever be.
Fat carebears who think this is just another WOW clone need to wake up and realize they're never going to get to put elf ears on their ship no matter how much they whine to CCP about it. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
452
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Vaal Erit wrote:Oh noes CCP might nerf suicide ganking? You mean like they do every expansion? Whatever shall we do. huh I missed some patchnotes then, other than the insurance nerf that every suicide ganker says didnt matter what all are you talking about? Cause you got tier 3 BCs basically built for suicide ganking, and the insurance thing (that, again everyone has said doesnt matter at all) is the only negative thing I can think of off hand Well, there are the constant upgrades to CONCORD response time, and changing things the the boomerang maneuver(which wasn't an exploit when I heard about it petitioned years ago, it was 'intelligent use of game mechanics' as long as you eventually died to CONCORD), to name a couple.
Alphastrike for the first, Boomerang has been known as an exploit forever I KEEP hearing. Just cause YOU didnt hear of it as such doesnt change anything. I came into the game in 2005, The first thing I heard about CONCORD was that if you figured out a way to keep yourself from dying to them thats an exploit. Kinda assumed it was from then forward. So having an exploit closed doesnt really seem THAT huge an issue to me. Doesnt that follow along the vaunted Ganker mantra of Risk vs Reward anyways? The whole ganking thing has been fairly easy to do, Id think making it harder wouldnt be met with as much resistance. Then again, this is the same attitude Im seeing from the Incursion runners, it gets harder you dont adapt, you give up.
Whatever happened to HTFU and Adapt or die? "Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::
Yes |
Ashrik Tyr
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
So either we suicide gank in hi-sec, have loads of fun doing so, and risk an "exploit" (if you can call it that) being patched out. In the meanwhile creating loads of news and buzz for both the game and our corp/alliance which results in a surge of activity and new/old subscriptions, as well as loads of market activity for those who normally only accrue capital in Empire space. All the while making loads of money from the advanced-planned alloy nerf, tech, and general mineral prices skyrocketing.
Or we don't have fun in the fear the CCP will change something, maybe, despite describing this event as "f-ing brilliant".
Help guys, I can't decide what to do.
The OP has applied some warped version of a just-world fallacy to a spaceship videogame. |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:33:00 -
[87] - Quote
The only reason I could see for CCP to 'nerf' hulkageddon is if they start losing subscriptions over it.
Veteran miners are out in null-sec or W-Space doing grav sites and cashing in on those morphite prices, so they're not gonna be bothered by this. It's the budding, up-and-coming miners that might become too frustrated if they can't do their chosen profession for a whole month and consequently decide to go play another game.
Not sure what to think about it. I like that you can do it, but I'm not sure I like the effect it may have. Kinda like every other controversial issue in life.
/Aron |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:38:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ashrik Tyr wrote:So either we suicide gank in hi-sec, have loads of fun doing so, and risk an "exploit" (if you can call it that) being patched out. In the meanwhile creating loads of news and buzz for both the game and our corp/alliance which results in a surge of activity and new/old subscriptions, as well as loads of market activity for those who normally only accrue capital in Empire space. All the while making loads of money from the advanced-planned alloy nerf, tech, and general mineral prices skyrocketing.
Or we don't have fun in the fear the CCP will change something, maybe, despite describing this event as "f-ing brilliant".
Help guys, I can't decide what to do. Surrender to our pubbie overlords. We're doomed, their whines will blot out all logic. It's all over, there's nothing left for us but slavery in a CONCORD-run police state. PvP will be an unintended exploit. The only use for guns is to shoot red crosses. Incursions are the most risky thing you can do. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:It's the budding, up-and-coming miners that might become too frustrated if they can't do their chosen profession for a whole month and consequently decide to go play another game. You mean the up-and-coming miners with their hulks? Hm ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Aron Croup wrote:It's the budding, up-and-coming miners that might become too frustrated if they can't do their chosen profession for a whole month and consequently decide to go play another game. You mean the up-and-coming miners with their hulks? Hm ...
Doesn't take that long to get in a hulk... only a tiny bit more skill training than getting in a covetor.
But I reckon you wouldn't know much about that ;-)
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