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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ricdic on 13/03/2009 17:15:03 Hey guys,
I am setting up an expedition for WH space, basically to setup a POS with the whole works. Production facilities and 3 months of fuel. Whilst out there I will be placing a couple of cans advising to contact me if one gets stuck where I can provide ships etc fitted with probe launchers etc, combat vessels and the likes. Ultimately it would allow anyone in my wormhole to know they had a way out one way or another.
Now a new form of trade could be introduced, for example people coming in with probers before they bring their fleets, they could offer POS fuel in return for alien artificats.
One of the key difficulties with WH space would be refuelling. You find an exit WH and leave only to find you can't get back in because the WH closed. Instead a way to counter this is to jump out in a pod (very low mass), and find where you are located. Once done send your industrial alt (from empire) to the WH location and have them jump in with the fuel. That way you are never disconnected from your POS.
With 3 months fuel at a time it is almost guaranteed you will find quite a few exit wormholes to get this system working. In the meantime you keep ratting/doing sites etcand build up a big stockpile in your POS, trading to those heading in and out of newly formed holes. (for example, someone comes in with industrial, buys some of your alien artifcats, and takes them right back out where they came from.
Ultimately it would be a way for trade to occur without you ever needing to actually leave your space.
I already spent a couple of days in WH space and found the hardest thing was logistics. My raven ran out of cruise missiles and my prober pilot was destroyed by rats (didnt warp out in time). With a system as proposed above your ship could be replaced, your missiles could be refilled etc.
A small secure can at a key point (say a moon or planet) would allow people to see you are offering this service and not feel stuck in their similar situations.
Anyway that's my grand idea, what do you guys think? With enough people setup in this kind of fashion it could create a wormhole network hub of sorts. Once I am operational I may look at having my empire alt setup a Wormhole Expedition shop on the sell order forums. Basically an Orca/Jump Freighter etc with all the necessary stuff to build your own franchise of sorts. It would ultimately build a trust base as that would always be a concern for travellers (warp to me at Planet 1 and I will trade you x for y) and really it's in the best interests of both parties.
Discussion? |
Ginako
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:17:00 -
[2]
So its like a Gas Station in the Middle of the Nevada Desert? --------------
Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs! |
Northern Fall
Minmatar Guild Navy
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:17:00 -
[3]
In Theory this could be a great idea, although the idea of someone capitalising W-space kinda breaks the immersion
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MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:35:00 -
[4]
I'll start carrying around some enriched uranium and robotics just in case I find you...
MDD
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:35:00 -
[5]
There are thousands of W-Space locations so thousands of retail opportunities .
Imagine a big enough network to cover even 25% of the wormholes out there. You (as an empire trader) would find an open hole, pop in with pod and see the Network Hub sign (or a can in this case), then pop back to your empire system, grab your iteron Mk5 with cargo expanders, pop in, do trade (pos fuel for alien stuffs or even pos fuel for cash) then go back home. If the WH was closed and you done a trade for cash you could just sell us your Iteron and pod jump home .
But really, if you found me online you could be in and out in industrial (in with fuel, out with alien stuffs) within a matter of minutes almost entirely removing your risk |
Matharos
Dark Canyon Corporation
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:46:00 -
[6]
Sounds very cool, but with 2500 w-space systems out there what kind of traffic do you expect?
It could be a very long time before someone comes to your system.
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Tordel Takuri
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:49:00 -
[7]
Eve mail me ingame with what you need from me on this....starting 1 week from tommorow ima be heading out in a abbadon for 2 weeks+ before coming to K space, i could start dropping cans or something adverting for you or whatnot, so yeah, evemail me
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Kiviar
Caldari Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:55:00 -
[8]
Advertising your POS filled with t3 salvage, ships, and other goodies is just begging for someone to bring in a fleet to tear it down and cart off your gear.
Yes, it would take a bit of work to do, but, if the profit is right, people will do it. ---
Certified elite hull tanker. |
Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 17:55:00 -
[9]
In my 2 days in WH space I met about 8 different people.
Anyway remember the retail sector is more of a service for those stranded or in need of supplies. You still have your POS there, you can scan down all your sites, harvest gas for hours on end, mine veldspar and other ores to build up stockpiles for replacement ships etc. You wouldn't just sit back waiting for customers.
Also you may find people renting secure cans off you or even doing their own thing in the system then selling you their proceeds.
Example. Person shows up in W-Space in a Raven. Does some killing then wants to leave but the outbound WH leads nowhere. You offer to purchase his fitted raven and the goods he garnished from the system so he can pod himself home after profiting in the wormhole.
On the other end of the scale traders will also come through looking to buy your wares for resale/production etc in empire.
I think it could actually work with basically all parties seeing a benefit to the service. I make profit in W-Space and have my own safe haven, ratters have a supply depot, ninja explorers see my sign, grab indy and pick up my wares before their own WH closes so they profit off higher resale costs in empire.
I can't really see any negatives to the system and I don't actually think it's as complex as some may believe.
2 small secure containers: JOIN CHANNEL "535366 System" For supplies and trade
Anyone scanning (which will of course be everyone in wormhole space) will see the cans and be immediately made aware of the services and options available. (channel would have an MOTD stating various prices, offerings etc with maybe forum link to sell orders showing a trustworthy organisation). |
Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:00:00 -
[10]
In another thread, I posed a similiar idea, and I agree, lug a POS, 3mo of fuel and a few ships in, there is no reason you can't keep the thing running.
With respect to always being able to find an exit - it's doable, but still possibly tough. Imagine first month you exit right into empire, second month, your exit isn't direct, but requires you go though another wormhole, or possibly two, third month, you exit in Stain, fourth month - Branch. You get the idea.
As long as you're committed to the logistics of it - it is doable. My experience is though, that logistics tends to wear you down.
Another question, is there ice in W-space? I've also heard the rats die down, once the first wormhole closes. Can someone confirm there are no moon materials in W-space?
Some other thoughts, include can production be done? If there are no moon materials, what other purpose would the POS provide other than a home-base?
Having said all of that - though fraught with challenges, I very much like the idea of trying to live in W-space just for the experience.
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Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:01:00 -
[11]
i'm not sure this will work, but it wounds really cool.
so gl!
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kiviar Advertising your POS filled with t3 salvage, ships, and other goodies is just begging for someone to bring in a fleet to tear it down and cart off your gear.
Yes, it would take a bit of work to do, but, if the profit is right, people will do it.
The idea would be for it to not be filled with those things Keep trade running and you aren't holding huge stockpiles. We go back to the standard bartering system.
Ratter: Hi I need 3,000 cruise missiles Retailer: What do you have as payment? Salvage, Isk or Fuel?
Oh and in regards to the fleet attacking they may find once done that they run out of ammo and need to purchase it off me or have no way out when their wormhole closes A POS with decent defence would be required however I don't expect we will be seeing a lot of major POS warfare. (Thats not to say I haven't bought up a fair bit of offensive and defensive POS modules)
It's incredibly easy for a fleet to get stuck, especially bigger ships or even to get stranded away from the rest of the fleet (2 warp through whilst the other caps are left at a collapsed hole etc)
So i won't discredit the possibility however if the operation had a good mixture of supply and demand I don't see it being of concern. |
Nova Satar
Annihilate.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:02:00 -
[13]
i'm not sure this will work, but it sounds really cool.
so gl!
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Agent Unknown
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:05:00 -
[14]
Of course, there's always the people who want to er...profit from other people who are stopping in to pick up stuff.
It's the Old Wild West all over again. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong."
Originally by: CCP Fallout
And yelling is bad. It makes the baby Jesus cry and when the baby Jesus cries I'm forced to lock threads |
Morlar
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:07:00 -
[15]
It's freaking Deadwood.
I love the idea.
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Ginako
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Agent Unknown Of course, there's always the people who want to er...profit from other people who are stopping in to pick up stuff.
It's the Old Wild West all over again.
This is why we need Cowboy hats as an EVE portrait accessory.
and Beards... Seriously WHERE are all the beards!? --------------
Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs! |
KarGard
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Eventy One
Another question, is there ice in W-space? I've also heard the rats die down, once the first wormhole closes. Can someone confirm there are no moon materials in W-space?
Some other thoughts, include can production be done? If there are no moon materials, what other purpose would the POS provide other than a home-base?
Dev blog has stated no moon minerals, Haven't found any ice so far, and doubt its there.
As for what good they are? Well I imagine that they will become an alternative for Highsec corps who want to set up POSes, but don't have the manpower to protect a lowsec operation.
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.13 18:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Eventy One With respect to always being able to find an exit - it's doable, but still possibly tough.
There is always at least one exit. Once that exit closes, another one reforms. I have seen about 7 wormholes so far and none have lasted more than 2 days. This means over a 3 month period you have at least 45 different system outputs so at least one should provide you a way to get more fuel into your POS.
Hardest part with scanning at the moment is inside wormhole space you have maybe 30 different anomolies, finding the wormhole (and not the ladar/gravs) can be a royal pain in the butt. If you have all those other anomolies mapped out, finding a wormhole won't be anywhere near as hard. Not to mention if you aren't interested in killing rats yourself, mining, or dealing with gas clouds you can sell the bookmarks to explorers. Rent them a ship and fittings and sell the bm's for that system. The possibilities are endless.
Quote: Imagine first month you exit right into empire, second month, your exit isn't direct, but requires you go though another wormhole, or possibly two, third month, you exit in Stain, fourth month - Branch. You get the idea.
As above I doubt any WH would last anywhere near a month. They cycle quite fast from what I have seen so far.
Quote: As long as you're committed to the logistics of it - it is doable. My experience is though, that logistics tends to wear you down.
I don't think there is much logistics really involved short of initial setup costs/time and advertising your location in the retail network.
Quote: Another question, is there ice in W-space? I've also heard the rats die down, once the first wormhole closes. Can someone confirm there are no moon materials in W-space?
No ice, no moon materials, I have seen the rats respawn in my cases I believe. Seems a very slow respawn timer but they do seem to come back eventually.
Quote: Some other thoughts, include can production be done? If there are no moon materials, what other purpose would the POS provide other than a home-base?
T1 Production (or t2 if you bring out all the raw stuff) for replacements perfect for stranded people those with losses etc. Someone who can't find an exit wormhole may request you buy his crow so he can pod jump home. You take it at a cost and one day someone else may show complaining he lost his crow. Sell it on, strip the mods for resale etc etc.
POS - Home base, retail shop etc
On another note. This kind of design would work perfectly if there was some sort of way a person could access some form of portal at a pos where a standard item exchange window was made available (exactly the same as npc stations). It would allow for secured trade especially suitable in WH space. Alternatively one could install on their POS a market array where the market tab worked and trades could occur somehow. That might be too complex though |
Fitz VonHeise
Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:01:00 -
[19]
I posted this before but thought it might be good info to post here:
Here are my thoughts on this...
Every ship other then fighting ships through the Worm Hole (WH) should have cargo optimizers I's on them and cargo expander II's. (Cargo hold space is at a premium).
Initial Survey You take in two probe ships like the buzzard with holds full of moon and WH probes. If the WH is still open then you take through the largest cloaked industrial you can fly filled with your pos and other stuff. If WH is still open a 2nd industrial and so on till it closes. (Prioritize what is in each one and send them in the sequence you need them most)
The point of this that if the WH has nothing you want then you all you need to do is just find the exit point and leave. But if you do want to stayą then you already have part of what you need to settle the area.
Follow On Once you have located where you want to settleą then each time you find the new WH location you send through the minimum amount of ships/people you need and then if the WH is still there send through your Orca or whatever large ship you want. (carrier?) As if the ships fits through the WH and the WH is still openą then no matter what size your ship isą it will go through.
(This is based on the assumptions of this)
Originally by: Braaage A - We've got a cutoff value (12,000,000kg currently) which is a minimum ship mass that can always use a wormhole while its mass budget is still above 0kg. If this ship takes the budget below 0kg, it collapses. Say then you've got a wormhole with 9,900,000kg left: you can jump a 11,000,000kg cruiser through, but that'll take it below 0 and it collapses behind you.
EveGuides: Wormholes
Now I'm thinking that you will not need a large POS ... that you can get by with a Medium POS which should be enough to kill off the one or two caps that might come in to test your POS. And fuel will be less. But if you want to bring a large POS then go for it.
Then I started to think about fueling your POS after setting it up. You are going to have to bring fuel in.. probably in an industrial but you are not going to want to take the industrial back out empty (closing the WH) so you will end up with a lot of them hanging around.
You might be able to sell them to people to take their stuff out.
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Tordel Takuri
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:07:00 -
[20]
With regards to the finding a route idea, as long as you get intel (i.e. how they got to your system) from your customers it would be completely feasable, because systems need not have just 1 wormhole.
I am a laser man myself but a reprocessing and ammo manufacturing center is a must in WH space for all the people who get lost/stuck or that are going exploring like i am
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:07:00 -
[21]
Agreed about the leaving with an empty industrial.
You will have to coordinate the refuelling efforts with the exporting product to market efforts to help minimize logistic requirements or optimize use of wormholes.
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JamesWyh
Jammar Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:09:00 -
[22]
Liking this whole idea, it has given me something to think about, would be very interested to find out how it all turns out.. MAKER OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DESTROY! |
crockett EXE
Minmatar Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: crockett EXE on 13/03/2009 19:13:22 You could probably make more just jumping into random WH's and asking if anyone's stuck, then offering a fee to get them out.
Unless you are just after the challenge of a POS in WH space.
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James Malice
Gallente Legion Of Mad Cats
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:33:00 -
[24]
you guys missed one inportant fact
There's no local in wormhole space.
Originally by: MooKids I like them, I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
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Ginako
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: James Malice you guys missed one inportant fact
There's no local in wormhole space.
No theres a Delayed local in wormhole space. Meaning you cant see anyone in local until they talk. --------------
Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs! |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:39:00 -
[26]
I have also had similar speculations as you Ricdic, but it just seems like too big a hassle for me to dabble with solo right now, so I had actually considered finally joining a corp if its stated goal was to live and make profit out of W-space.
Do not forget the aspect of processing gas at your POS, that will make transportation easier. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran I have also had similar speculations as you Ricdic, but it just seems like too big a hassle for me to dabble with solo right now, so I had actually considered finally joining a corp if its stated goal was to live and make profit out of W-space.
Do not forget the aspect of processing gas at your POS, that will make transportation easier.
I'd like to be involved in a venture like this too, but I suspect your goal has to be slightly modified:
I'm not convinced that the logistical challenges are as manageable as the OP, but even so - the goal of living in W-Space, should likely not be to make a profit 'out of' W-space, but simply to sustain existence in W-space as your primary locality.
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Exoth3rmic
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:51:00 -
[28]
So your main concern after fueling this pos and expending all the funds in setting it up in a WH with randomly occuring exits (and therefore entrances) will be not to get podded, right?
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Holy Lowlander
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:52:00 -
[29]
if you live in the system your pos is in , it is very doable. If you got a group of players , or alone but that'd be boring (wouldn't it?), that wants to live in wormhole space for a long time. It would mean you could get alot of money out of it. If you can set up your tower in a way so that it can reverse engineer or run reactions too you might be able to ship out the 'finished' product you need to make subsystems etc.
If you stay in the wormhole system with your pos you'll probably get a wormhole to empire every now and then. Just bring plenty of probing ships and probes. Then use these wormholes to get fuel in and products out.
You could really have your own litle system cut off from known space , live your own life mind your own buissness . Without too much people bothering you. It reminds me of that movie about the earth being one big ocean and people sailing all across it. (with that mutant guy and the smokers that used alot of oil and sigarets .. forgot the name)
If I'll ever come across it I'll pop by ^^.
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
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Posted - 2009.03.13 19:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Exoth3rmic So your main concern after fueling this pos and expending all the funds in setting it up in a WH with randomly occuring exits (and therefore entrances) will be not to get podded, right?
Not necessarily. If you have a fuelled POS in W-Space you have a safe spot. The chances of a dred fleet coming and putting into re-inforced, although not zero, are very unlikely.
That leave entrance/exit. The Ops idea is that there is always an exit, and he's right - there is.
So what chance of being podded then? If the exit leads to another wormhole system, it's more likely than not safe.
If the w-space system exits directly or indirectly into 0.0, yes getting podded in transit is an issue, not simply in the system you exit into, but subsequent systems.
If the w-space system exits directly or indirectly into empire, no worries.
More likely than not, getting podded isn't the primary concern, or likely even the secondary one.
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