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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:12:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Skulldara I would argue that if you have to turn a module on, its an active tank or at least a hybrid tank and not truely passive. Shield hardeners, such as Invulnerability Fields, drain cap; which makes them active. Extenders, PDUs, rechargers, flux coils, relays, and amplifiers are all passive. Boosters and hardeners are active. If someone can drain your cap to 0 and it adversely effects your tank, then you have an active tank.
By that definition, passive tanking is effectively useless and always sub-optimal. Pottsey's definition makes far more sense, even if it violates some rule that you personally have.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Rogue Lilly
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Rogue Lilly ahhhhhhh.....Ok, that makes sense. So in pvp you usually have spikes of damage to deal with instead of constant steady dps. So If I'm fitting a buffer of LSE why not throw in a few shield relays in the lows anyway for a bit of regen since there are no modules that go in lows that increase base shield amount that I know of.
There are - Power Diagnostic Systems give more shield. But you don't fit them unless you need their PG boost, because you want to be fitting a Damage Control and damage mods.
And speed mods so that you can stay out of the Blaster Range Of Doom, or inside the Laser Range Of Doom, or get away from the +2 Warp Disruptor Of Doom.
I would be very inclined to fit 3 Gyros, OD, Nano, DC II in the lows of a shield buffered hurricane. Maybe 2 ODs or 2 nanos. Maybe. :P
Then again, I fly a plate cane and a shield buffer Cyclone, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask about shield buffered Canes.
-Liang
would you mind sharing your shield buffered cyclone set up. I like the cyclone and I'd like to give that a try.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly would you mind sharing your shield buffered cyclone set up. I like the cyclone and I'd like to give that a try.
It's a carefully guarded sekrit.
Cyclone 5x 425, 3x HAM 10mn MWD, Disruptor, Web, LSE, Invuln 3x Gyro, DC No Rigs
An old friend of mine suggested fitting 2 Gyro/2 Nano and I think that would also be a really good fit (Hi Matt!)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Coriander Rinne
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Pottsey
I don't agree that's a myth you have to use every last mid and low slot. I wrote a long bit about that in the full guide which I must get around to finding a host for. Years back passive tanks did missions without a problem and everyone said but you have to use every slot. Then passive tanks got boosted and everyone said use every slot. Then they got boosted again and people still say use every slot. Another boost and people still say use every slot. All the while most of my passive tanks have been scaling back the shield modules as the tanks got stronger.
The reason the guide is over tanked with every module on tanking is I normally say start overtanked and scale back the modules one at a time till you find the sweat spot for you. I will try and clear that up in the main guide.
Fair point. Maybe it's just that not enough people realize that they can scale back their tanks a bit to make room for other things.
Quote: You have no more risk of cap death over using an active shield tank and pulsing the shield booster.
My point was that if you're close to it, under an active setup you can recover. If your cap becomes unstable under a passive setup you're in a lot more trouble to me.
If it's not a problem for you, I'll take your word for it, but I've always felt that it's safer to have a strong capacitor and the ability to turn your tank on and off.
Quote: You mean by doing the same damage as the passive tank? How is it any more versatile and capable then a passive tank?
By having three damage mods that people don't ever seem to spare lowslots for on PST setups, I'd say that makes it more capable. In regards to versatile, I was thinking in terms of things like tracking computers or target painters in midslots.
Originally by: Shereza That's why you use Shield Flux Coils. They don't nerf your cap and you get better shield and capacitor regeneration with two SFCs than you do with an SPR2 and a PDS2. You lose buffer but gain more in regen.
The biggest problem with passive shield tanking isn't that you need every low slot or you can't use it on cap-using ships, it's that people don't understand SFCs or the concept of moderation.
I wasn't addressing you or anything about SFC's specifically, but I concede you the moderation part, basically the same as Pottsey said. In regards to SFC's, I've honestly never heard anything about people using them before you. It makes sense, though, and it seems like precisely the sort of thing that needs to be in this guide as an alternative to murdering your cap.
Moar threads need to be useful like this. ---
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:47:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/03/2009 20:54:24 Skulldara said "I would argue that if you have to turn a module on, its an active tank or at least a hybrid tank and not truely passive." By your definition the first few years of original pure passive tanks setups are no longer classed as passive tanks. That feels wrong to me. Some tanking modules like the Invulnerability Fields you turn on used to be mostly only found on passive tanks, as only passive tanks had the cap to run them.
Well passive tanking is many things but generally speaking itĘs using the ships natural shield regeneration without using shield boosters or amour repairers to stay alive. This is done in two ways but most pilots these days do hybrid of the two. To be a passive tank all you have to do is use the ships natural shield regeneration to tank without using cap to boost that regeneration. I have not forgotten about this thread. I will post the full guide at some point.
Skulldara said "If someone can drain your cap to 0 and it adversely effects your tank, then you have an active tank." If someone drains our cap the ships shield regeneration does not drop like an active tank so it's still a passive tank. As for the active hardeners they switch to passive mode and still boost resistance. You lose a bit of effectiveness but on the whole your tank still tanks.
To me passive tanking can be broke down into 3 key types. All are passive tanks just different types. In the past each type was a very clear difference. Now the line between the 3 types has blurred a lot with active hardeners that turning to passive mode, and shield extenders that boost HP/s a lot.
1) Focus on a sustainable DPS tank with resistance and hitpoint regeneration either buy boosting hitpoints and/or speeding up shield recharge. 2) Focus on maximising the hitpoint pool which normally consists of a mix of boosting hitpoints and boosting resistance to create a large hitpoint pool as a buffer. 3) Cap immune ships. Can be a mix of 1 and 2 but must not use modules that drain cap. Normally they fit passive hardeners and use a weapon system that does not use cap.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.19 20:54:00 -
[66]
Coriander Rinne said " If it's not a problem for you, I'll take your word for it, but I've always felt that it's safer to have a strong capacitor and the ability to turn your tank on and off." Think of it in reverse. With the active tank you tend to keep the resistance constant but change the HP regen with modules to manage cap. With the passive tank you don't tweak the regen but instead tweak the resistance modules to manage cap. At least that's how I do it. How do other passive tanker manage there cap?
As for all the comments on shield flux. Part of the problem with my full guide is I wrote it before T2 flux and flux modules become semi useful. I need to rewrite the flux parts of the guide.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Skulldara
Gallente PRO Space Hunters HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2009.03.19 21:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
By that definition, passive tanking is effectively useless and always sub-optimal. Pottsey's definition makes far more sense, even if it violates some rule that you personally have.
I wasn't debating usefulness, only semantics. I agree a primarily passive tank with active harderners are superior in most situations. However, if you can use pure passive tanks as a way to throw off an attacker that loves to cap drain/destabilize or even possibly perma-running your own cap destabilizers.
This is my favorite, probably very common, solo Level 4 drake. of course I mix and match the hardeners/amps based on the mission enemy.
Effective HP: 69,113 Defense: 485/485 Firepower (DPS/Volly): 402/2118.
[Drake, Hybrid Passive] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Salvager I
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
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Skulldara
Gallente PRO Space Hunters HUNTER'S BROTHERHOOD
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:07:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Pottsey
This is my current Kronos setup. Been thinking about removing one of the PDS modules and swapping it for a 4th Gallente Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer, Flux or an SPR. A 4th SPR will mean the cap runs out in 8mins, 24sec which might be a little too low. I find if I aim for a 10 to 12min cap time in EFT then in game I never run out of cap even if the mission takes an hour. What do people think I should do with the low slots?
I wouldn't add a forth module of any kind due to the law of diminishing returns. Try replacing a SPR II with a DC II, which will give you a 30% increase in Effective HP and a 10m 35s Cap life, with your tractors turned off.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:10:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Skulldara I wouldn't add a forth module of any kind due to the law of diminishing returns. Try replacing a SPR II with a DC II, which will give you a 30% increase in Effective HP and a 10m 35s Cap life, with your tractors turned off.
Cap/Shield rechargers are not affected by the stack nerf.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:35:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Pottsey I wrote a long bit about that in the full guide which I must get around to finding a host for.
Host: official EVE wiki. Let's, please, after 5 years, get all the stuff in one spot.
If not, please post why not.
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:39:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Pottsey I wrote a long bit about that in the full guide which I must get around to finding a host for.
Host: official EVE wiki. Let's, please, after 5 years, get all the stuff in one spot.
If not, please post why not.
Because someone will come along and be all "durrrr, I think passive tanking means putting an armor rep on!!!".... well, that's my opinion. :P
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Rogue Lilly
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:54:00 -
[72]
In response to the statements about shield flux coils. Do they really do anything? I don't know if it's just a misconception based on the way EFT calculates or what.
It seems when i put a flux coil on a fitting in EFT it actually lowers my defenses. Is shield recharge based on shield capacity where the larger your shields the more shield per second recharges?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 22:58:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly In response to the statements about shield flux coils. Do they really do anything? I don't know if it's just a misconception based on the way EFT calculates or what.
It seems when i put a flux coil on a fitting in EFT it actually lowers my defenses. Is shield recharge based on shield capacity where the larger your shields the more shield per second recharges?
It's basically calculated as:
Shield HP ------------- * 2.4 Recharge Time
Thus, the more HP you have the more shields recharge in time X. The less HP, the less. SFC's work off the idea of having less HP and much less recharge time. They are very very conditionally useful (IMO) because at the same time they lower shield hp, they lower the amount of alpha damage required to push you over the edge from "insane tank" to "loltank".
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Rogue Lilly
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:07:00 -
[74]
What situations would SFC come in handy. Basically I'm trying to find a way to shield tank mini ships.
It seems that every t1 mini ship under a battleship size is designed for armor tanking only which is odd considering the smaller ships should lean more towards shield tanking that doesn't lower your speed, especially for a race that supposedly specializes in going fast.
I read all over that mini favor shield tanking but every single ship seems to have more lows than mids. So I'm looking for a way to shield tank with lows.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly What situations would SFC come in handy. Basically I'm trying to find a way to shield tank mini ships.
It seems that every t1 mini ship under a battleship size is designed for armor tanking only which is odd considering the smaller ships should lean more towards shield tanking that doesn't lower your speed, especially for a race that supposedly specializes in going fast.
I read all over that mini favor shield tanking but every single ship seems to have more lows than mids. So I'm looking for a way to shield tank with lows.
The Cyclone is a shield tanker, and so is the Stabber. I either use PDU's or SPR's when I want to shield tank with my lows. SFC's are apparently more useful in situations where SPR's eat your cap too heavily. I haven't seen it personally, and I doubt that I'd ever fit a SFC to any ship of mine.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Commander Vic
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:53:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Rogue Lilly It seems that every t1 mini ship under a battleship size is designed for armor tanking only which is odd considering the smaller ships should lean more towards shield tanking that doesn't lower your speed, especially for a race that supposedly specializes in going fast.
You can fit a wicked passive shield tank on a Hurricane. Active shield tanks work well on several ships, the stabber and cyclone are two good examples.
The only T1 mini ships I armor tank for PvE are ruppies and phoons. If you're actually in minmatar space and fighting the angels the shield will be vastly superior due to its higher base explosivle resistance. If you're concerned mostly with PvP then yeah... armor tank, typically a passive buffer tank and a remote repper for spider tanking so you don't go splat as soon as you get whacked by a bunch of neuts. Passive shields tanks don't work as well for minmatar ships in PvP because they rely heavily on mobility and combining an MWD with a passive shield tank is not a very good idea. If you want to take advantage of their speed in PvE (yes, a stabber with overdrives and an AB to speed tank BS's in level 4's is fun) just go with an active tank, so fill those low slots with PDUs (NOT capacitor power relays) and gyros, adjust your mid slots as you see fit. Shield boosters are FAST so you will burn up cap quickly compared to using armor reppers.
Also keep in mind that you can armor tank without suffering speed penalties by focusing on resists rather than raw HP.
Fun trivia: Look at the minmatar ship models, the more 'solar panel looking things' you see on the model the better it will shield tank.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:57:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Commander Vic Fun trivia: Look at the minmatar ship models, the more 'solar panel looking things' you see on the model the better it will shield tank.
What about the Mael? (It almost works btw)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Ris Dnalor
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.03.20 03:20:00 -
[78]
thread is full of lol.
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Dukanar
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Posted - 2009.03.20 03:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 01/03/2009 12:28:48
-DonĘt overlook the hitpoint pool with resistance over HP regen. 30k Hitpoints with 50% resistance means without factoring in regen you can tank 45k worth of damage. I often use the hitpoint pool to kill rats so by the time I hit 30% shields the rats DPS is less then my tankable DPS.
Just wanted to point out a small mistake, if you have 50% resists and 30,000 HP your EHP is 60,000, not 45000.
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Mizz Wolf
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.03.20 04:21:00 -
[80]
Someone asked about a PST Hurricane, here is the one I use:
[Hurricane, Shield Tank T2] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II 650mm Artillery Cannon II 650mm Artillery Cannon II 650mm Artillery Cannon II 650mm Artillery Cannon II 650mm Artillery Cannon II Assault Missile Launcher II Assault Missile Launcher II
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
It's on the slow side and PVE only but the tank is outstanding and the DPS isn't super horrid.
Using a level 5 char in EFT (only way to make sure everything is level with anyone else, no implants) comes up with:
44556 EHP 388 DPS 480 sustained omni tank
I've also dropped 2 purgers on a different fit in return for 2 core defense shield extenders for an amazing buffer tank along with 300+ regen.
I don't bother with the T2 rigs as I can't use them yet and I don't think they are worth the investment on something like this anyway.
If you decide to spend the Isk, it works out to 582 regen, but at that point I'd drop a SPU and put another gyro on it for 442 regen and 439 DPS. Further illustrates the point about most (not all) PSTs being short on DPS due to the lows being used for other things.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.20 07:20:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Pottsey on 20/03/2009 07:20:04 Thanks to those who posted corrections. I will edit those into the guide later.
Anyone know how much extra damage you take from sig these days? I am trying to work and out failing to get an estimated rough damage increase from say 25 extra sig or 50 extra.
Washell Olivaw said "Host: official EVE wiki. Let's, please, after 5 years, get all the stuff in one spot. If not, please post why not." Time and motivation and I was looking for a host for my doc file. I want to rewrite parts of the guide like the bits on flux and get a decent amount of ship setups. I will post what I have on the wiki when I am happy with it. Hopefully not much longer. I will see if I can get something up this weekend.
Rogue Lilly said "In response to the statements about shield flux coils. Do they really do anything?" Most Flux modules are badm the T2 ones can be good in a few limited setups. I don't like them due to the lower hitpoints and smaller shield regen curve. As much as I like useing the buffer there are a few times when adding another SPR drains to much cap and a flux gives more tankable DPS then a PDS or suitcase.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.03.22 01:04:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Coriander Rinne I wasn't addressing you or anything about SFC's specifically, but I concede you the moderation part, basically the same as Pottsey said. In regards to SFC's, I've honestly never heard anything about people using them before you. It makes sense, though, and it seems like precisely the sort of thing that needs to be in this guide as an alternative to murdering your cap.
Moar threads need to be useful like this.
I understand that what you were saying wasn't aimed directly at me but I'd made at least one, if not 2-3, posts indicating proper usage of SFCs to good effect and it just annoyed me to read a post that seemed to ignore their existance.
Plus when I get into a quoting mood I quote lots of people whether or not they're aiming statements at me or not. I think I've almost accidentally quoted myself once or twice.
Originally by: Rogue Lilly What situations would SFC come in handy. Basically I'm trying to find a way to shield tank mini ships.
Honestly, Shield Flux Coils on a Minmatar ship are about as useful as fiberglass windshields on a spaceshuttle for the most part. From a purely PvE aspect the ships don't need capacitor for the guns and outside of hardeners and/or afterburners so there's really no point in not using SPRs as SPRs yield more tank on a module per module basis and the more tank you can achieve out of the fewest modules the more slots you'll have left for rDPS and eDPS modules.
Originally by: Liang Nuren I haven't seen it personally, and I doubt that I'd ever fit a SFC to any ship of mine.
-Liang
The instances in which you'd fit SFCs over SPRs, at least in PvE, are few and far between. Ships like the nightmare and navy megathron, both of which by dint of being faction make for "unusual" cases, are two of the exceptions but if you go that route you have to be more careful than you would with more traditional fits.
Really what it boils down to in many instances is that they make setups that when using SPRs would otherwise be "lolfits" somewhat to fully practical, even if they are somewhat to fairly sub-optimal. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.22 02:25:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Shereza I think I've almost accidentally quoted myself once or twice.
...
Honestly, Shield Flux Coils on a Minmatar ship are about as useful as fiberglass windshields on a spaceshuttle for the most part.
Quote:
The instances in which you'd fit SFCs over SPRs, at least in PvE, are few and far between. Ships like the nightmare and navy megathron, both of which by dint of being faction make for "unusual" cases, are two of the exceptions but if you go that route you have to be more careful than you would with more traditional fits.
Really what it boils down to in many instances is that they make setups that when using SPRs would otherwise be "lolfits" somewhat to fully practical, even if they are somewhat to fairly sub-optimal.
Yeah I figured it had to be a capacitor issue. I still wouldn't fit them - I'd go active. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.03.22 04:45:00 -
[84]
Excellent update, Pottsey! Thank you.
To the nay-sayers and those that wonder at these strange things... You should know that Pottsey basically invented the passive tank (or, at the very least, was the first one to truly run the numbers and propose it as valid).
xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.22 22:40:00 -
[85]
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/How_to_Passive_Shield_Tank_Version_T2
Started converting and posting my guide over at the wiki with a few new bits that are not in this thread. Having a little trouble with formation, got pages of ship setups but not found a way to make it readable yet.
Going to try and add a few more sections next week and get the ship section working. So keep posting those ship layouts. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Klex Ashald
Caldari The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.23 00:29:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Pottsey
-DonĘt overlook the hitpoint pool with resistance over HP regen. 30k Hitpoints with 50% resistance means without factoring in regen you can tank 45k worth of damage.
50% resists mean you take half the raw damage and thus twice the raw damage is required to kill you. 30k HP with 50% resists = 60k effective.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.03.23 07:11:00 -
[87]
Thanks, I managed to get it right in the Wiki but it was still wrong in this thread. Any other mistakes?
Once all the sections are coverted over to wiki, I will give it all another check over for errors. Some are bound to slip past. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Klex Ashald
Caldari The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.03.23 14:13:00 -
[88]
That was the only thing I noticed.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.03.23 14:33:00 -
[89]
People who say passive tanking is overpowered dont understand the significance of damage mods and speed.
If you think the goal of the game is to make a giant tough space snail, then ya passive tanking is overpowered. If you think the goal is to kill people and not die yourself then it isnt overpowered at all.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Rogue Lilly
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:14:00 -
[90]
Once you get the guide up on the wiki could you post in here to let us know. I would love to check it out.
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