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MAX MEXX
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:40:00 -
[1]
Before the introduction of the "safe GTC trade system" gm's statet it was a banable offence to scam pepole with fake GTC's. Is this stil the case?
OR wy has this ben changed?
It's stil the same scam as before, but now using ingame Contract systems.
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Elysarian
Minmatar dudetruck corp
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:46:00 -
[2]
AFAIK still illegal... you should be safe enough if you use the proper "safe trade" system though?
As far as I'm aware that's the only safe & legit way to buy a PLEX with ISK. ===================================== It smells of spoon! ===================================== |
Ma'kal
Caldari SUNDERING Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:48:00 -
[3]
Yes, only because it is so easy to tell if it is a scam or not. Open your eyes and read the contract. If you stop one "scam" then you have to stop them all. An that is not Eve Online.
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Troyd23
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Troyd23 on 21/02/2009 00:49:00 Or you know... just buy/sell plexs on the market?
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Kjetilen
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ma'kal Yes, only because it is so easy to tell if it is a scam or not. Open your eyes and read the contract. If you stop one "scam" then you have to stop them all. An that is not Eve Online.
I' have not goten scamed, but for the newbie spending a lot of RL cash bying GTC's only to gett scamed sucks.
There is a huge difrence in scaming INGAME items, then Real life items
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Johann Callasan
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: MAX MEXX Before the introduction of the "safe GTC trade system" gm's statet it was a banable offence to scam pepole with fake GTC's. Is this stil the case?
OR wy has this ben changed?
It's stil the same scam as before, but now using ingame Contract systems.
It hasn't changed - CCP catches ANYONE scamming either GTC or PLEX, they're gonna get the banhammer.
On that note though, where did you see a contract trying to "scam" a PLEX or a GTC? If you DO see carp like that going on, just remember that the devs won't catch on unless you petition...and even that may not work (regarding the POS exploit).
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Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:53:00 -
[7]
Are you talking a scam, like useing lag to screw with the contents of a trade, or someone intentionally buying them for 300K Isk on the market instead of 300mil?
if the 2nd, I don't see anything wrong with it. Market scams have been the norm since eve started. Why should GTC's be any different then the venrable MegaT being sold as a Navy Mega scam? Or the 1 isk buy order scam?
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Kjetilen
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:53:00 -
[8]
Open contract's find "game time" and see all the scaming contract's.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:53:00 -
[9]
There is a distinction between plex and GTCs
GTCs are out of game items that are a valid form of payment for the game. These are not scammable and if somone scams you why buying one using the secure method petition it
PLEX are in game items. They are subject to the rules that govern every in game item. You can trade and scam these all you want.
If you wanna be safe just trade GTCs on the forum using the secure method. If you wanna trade plexs in game you take the same risks as you do trading any item.
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Dari Anoh
Amarr Anoh Shavar
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:58:00 -
[10]
Just for the record, PLEXes are indeed treated like normal in-game items, so you're allowed to scam with them (See the big red box on the EVE Wiki page).
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Johann Callasan It hasn't changed - CCP catches ANYONE scamming either GTC or PLEX, they're gonna get the banhammer.
On that note though, where did you see a contract trying to "scam" a PLEX or a GTC? If you DO see carp like that going on, just remember that the devs won't catch on unless you petition...and even that may not work (regarding the POS exploit).
You couldn't be more wrong. CCP has stated that PLEX are ingame items and will be treated as such. People have petitioned "PLEX scams" (which are just basic contract scams) and GMs have affirmed that "PLEX scams" are legit.
Please don't comment on rules/game mechanics that you know nothing about again.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Johann Callasan
Originally by: MAX MEXX Before the introduction of the "safe GTC trade system" gm's statet it was a banable offence to scam pepole with fake GTC's. Is this stil the case?
OR wy has this ben changed?
It's stil the same scam as before, but now using ingame Contract systems.
It hasn't changed - CCP catches ANYONE scamming either GTC or PLEX, they're gonna get the banhammer.
On that note though, where did you see a contract trying to "scam" a PLEX or a GTC? If you DO see carp like that going on, just remember that the devs won't catch on unless you petition...and even that may not work (regarding the POS exploit).
check the local chat in Jita... on multiple occasions i have seen a PLEX scam contract being linked there. although these were all basically "WTB PLEX for 435 mill" or something over market rate, but the actual contract was missing some zeros at the end. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Kaahles
n0thing Inc. Ghostfleet
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:35:00 -
[13]
If you can read and take the time to carefully read the contracts you don't get scammed. It's as easy as that. You don't sing any crap contract in RL someone puts under you nose right?
If you fall for a scam like the one in the contracts it's just punishment for your lazyness. Accept it. ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:41:00 -
[14]
ALL in-game scams are legal as there are plently of in-game methods for detecting that it is a scam.
Any undectectable in-game scams are quickly patchs and/or declared exploits.
It is not practical to detect all forms of out-of-game scams. Therefore with vulnerable transaction (such as out-of-game GTC and Character trades) the GMs will enforce honesty as best as they can.
Scamming for game time became legitimate as soon as it moved in-game, and therefore ensured that players coould "defend" themselves against scams.
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Malthros Zenobia
Cadian Special Operations Command
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:41:00 -
[15]
Two EVE rules apply here:
1. If it looks too good to be true, it is. 2. If you're looking at a freeform contract, it's a scam.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Two EVE rules apply here:
1. If it looks too good to be true, it is. 2. If you're looking at a freeform contract, it's a scam.
I can't WAIT to see the first wave of nublets from M10 learn these rules. Nub tears taste so good....
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Etien Aldragoran
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.21 02:10:00 -
[17]
Plex != GTC.
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.21 02:39:00 -
[18]
Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k. CCP should better ban this, there are a lot of legal problems in this regard. The PLEX are not just ingame-items like anything else (all items and isk) that are owned by CCP, they represent a right/claim towards CCP to grant a 30 day access, they have a legal existence and a monetary value outside the game, a value that is owned by someone else than CCP. The ingame-scamming becomes an out-of-game claim scamming, people therefore commit a RL crime imho.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.02.21 02:59:00 -
[19]
Scams relying on exploits are bannable (like, say, the trade-window-lag bug that was supposedly eliminated a good while ago). "Scams" only relying on total carelessness of victim using regular game mechanics (say, the "inabity" to differentiate between 300k and 300m because they can't be arsed to pay attention) are A-OK.
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.02.21 03:45:00 -
[20]
Plex = Bearer bond
Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.21 05:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Troyd23 Edited by: Troyd23 on 21/02/2009 00:49:00 Or you know... just buy/sell plexs on the market?
This. WTF is wrong with you people? ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Jesslyn Daggererux
Gallente SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.02.21 05:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: iudex Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k. CCP should better ban this, there are a lot of legal problems in this regard. The PLEX are not just ingame-items like anything else (all items and isk) that are owned by CCP, they represent a right/claim towards CCP to grant a 30 day access, they have a legal existence and a monetary value outside the game, a value that is owned by someone else than CCP. The ingame-scamming becomes an out-of-game claim scamming, people therefore commit a RL crime imho.
well your humble opinion is wrong, stupid. is it physical? NO. then its IN ****ING GAME YOU ******! in game items are not owned by you. no ****ing exceptions. you just sound like a butt hurt nub who got scammed. shut up and die (ingame). -------------------------
Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux GREAT CHINESE WALL OF TEXT
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iudex
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux
Originally by: iudex Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k. CCP should better ban this, there are a lot of legal problems in this regard. The PLEX are not just ingame-items like anything else (all items and isk) that are owned by CCP, they represent a right/claim towards CCP to grant a 30 day access, they have a legal existence and a monetary value outside the game, a value that is owned by someone else than CCP. The ingame-scamming becomes an out-of-game claim scamming, people therefore commit a RL crime imho.
well your humble opinion is wrong, stupid. is it physical? NO. then its IN ****ING GAME YOU ******! in game items are not owned by you. no ****ing exceptions. you just sound like a butt hurt nub who got scammed. shut up and die (ingame).
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. You simply fail to understand what an intangible asset is, nor are you capable of understanding that the PLEX isn't only an ingame item but has a out-of-game legal existance (as a claim or intangible good). You try to compensate your lack of knowledge and intelligence with the use of insults, but you fail here aswell. Since you are apparently incapable of having a rational and mature discussion with the grown-ups in the forums i'd advise you to not hit the "Post Reply" button anymore at all.
_________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux
Originally by: iudex Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k. CCP should better ban this, there are a lot of legal problems in this regard. The PLEX are not just ingame-items like anything else (all items and isk) that are owned by CCP, they represent a right/claim towards CCP to grant a 30 day access, they have a legal existence and a monetary value outside the game, a value that is owned by someone else than CCP. The ingame-scamming becomes an out-of-game claim scamming, people therefore commit a RL crime imho.
well your humble opinion is wrong, stupid. is it physical? NO. then its IN ****ING GAME YOU ******! in game items are not owned by you. no ****ing exceptions. you just sound like a butt hurt nub who got scammed. shut up and die (ingame).
I dunno what my opinion is on whether scamming plexes is right or wrong but I do know that your argument is wrong. Plexes are at least as physical as a digital copy of a song or software and these are deemed to have a RL monetary value. Plenty of people get arrested/fined for inappropriate use/distribution/selling/scams involving these items.
well mannered a**h*** |
Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:04:00 -
[25]
oh just thought of another one, intellectual property, that can be "non physical" at least in so far as you describe it. Again, plenty of folks fall foul of the law for messing around with this too
well mannered a**h*** |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Troyd23 Edited by: Troyd23 on 21/02/2009 00:49:00 Or you know... just buy/sell plexs on the market?
seriously.....
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Insa Rexion
I dunno what my opinion is on whether scamming plexes is right or wrong but I do know that your argument is wrong. Plexes are at least as physical as a digital copy of a song or software and these are deemed to have a RL monetary value. Plenty of people get arrested/fined for inappropriate use/distribution/selling/scams involving these items.
Yes, but those laws protect the actual owner of those products. In this case that would be CCP, since you chose to change your gametime code for in-game items. The laws are there to protect original works and and insure that people keep creating and inventing new things. CCP is the one who decides what the proper use of these items is and their word is final.
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Ergebt Euch
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:28:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Insa Rexion
I dunno what my opinion is on whether scamming plexes is right or wrong but I do know that your argument is wrong. Plexes are at least as physical as a digital copy of a song or software and these are deemed to have a RL monetary value. Plenty of people get arrested/fined for inappropriate use/distribution/selling/scams involving these items.
Yes, but those laws protect the actual owner of those products. In this case that would be CCP, since you chose to change your gametime code for in-game items. The laws are there to protect original works and and insure that people keep creating and inventing new things. CCP is the one who decides what the proper use of these items is and their word is final.
so, if ccp decides to delete all that plexes for fun, without giving gametime but keep all that thousands of dollars or euros that have been paid for the plexes, this wouldn't be a breach of contract or at least a breach of good faith ? do you think if someone goes to court and want his money back, that he paid for the plexes, in this case will have no chance against ccp ? if you really believe that, you must be extremely ignorant
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Whattyamean Dean
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:33:00 -
[29]
Why is it people can type and read pages upon pages in a forum thread but can't bother to read a single contract? Where is the line between "being scammed" and "being a complete idiot"? They even put commas in the zeros for you.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Johann Callasan
Originally by: MAX MEXX Before the introduction of the "safe GTC trade system" gm's statet it was a banable offence to scam pepole with fake GTC's. Is this stil the case?
OR wy has this ben changed?
It's stil the same scam as before, but now using ingame Contract systems.
It hasn't changed - CCP catches ANYONE scamming either GTC or PLEX, they're gonna get the banhammer.
On that note though, where did you see a contract trying to "scam" a PLEX or a GTC? If you DO see carp like that going on, just remember that the devs won't catch on unless you petition...and even that may not work (regarding the POS exploit).
Wrong. PLEX are in game items and can be used for scamming just like any other item. CCP made this clear when they were introduced. Personally I was surprised, but pleased.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 07:41:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Originally by: Troyd23 Edited by: Troyd23 on 21/02/2009 00:49:00 Or you know... just buy/sell plexs on the market?
This. WTF is wrong with you people?
I know what's wrong with them.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ
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Posted - 2009.02.21 08:22:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Insa Rexion on 21/02/2009 08:24:40 Edited by: Insa Rexion on 21/02/2009 08:22:56
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Insa Rexion
I dunno what my opinion is on whether scamming plexes is right or wrong but I do know that your argument is wrong. Plexes are at least as physical as a digital copy of a song or software and these are deemed to have a RL monetary value. Plenty of people get arrested/fined for inappropriate use/distribution/selling/scams involving these items.
Yes, but those laws protect the actual owner of those products. In this case that would be CCP, since you chose to change your gametime code for in-game items. The laws are there to protect original works and and insure that people keep creating and inventing new things. CCP is the one who decides what the proper use of these items is and their word is final.
yes as I said in the very post you quoted "I dunno what my opinion is on whether scamming plexes is right or wrong" I was not making an argument for the point, just pointing out the stupidity of the guy's argument that "not physical" equated to "ok to steal or scam"....it clearly does not. Using just another Eve example, the GTC is not physical by his definition and yet CCP themselves prohibit GTC scams....that is all.
well mannered a**h*** |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 08:52:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw Plex = Bearer bond
Ye it's something like that. If i lose it, i lose something worth 15 US-$. If I lose it through deception it could be fraud.
In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them usually, to obtain property or services. Fraud can be committed through many methods, including mail, wire, phone, and the internet (computer crime and internet fraud). So if someone scams me for a plex, he (a real person) damages me (a real person) financially (for 15 $) - usually to obtain the service of 30 day gametime. That's fraud by definition. A crime such as fraud can't be waived or legalized by a third party EULA. In fact, since CCP offers a platform for others to commit fraud it is a "companion in crime" in that internet fraud. Helping fraudster to fraud will not go unpunished. If someone would cheat me out of my plexes, i'd bring in a charge against the scammer and CCP and they'd get "aggroed" by a prosecutor, very simple.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Washell Olivaw Plex = Bearer bond
Ye it's something like that. If i lose it, i lose something worth 15 US-$. If I lose it through deception it could be fraud.
In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them usually, to obtain property or services. Fraud can be committed through many methods, including mail, wire, phone, and the internet (computer crime and internet fraud). So if someone scams me for a plex, he (a real person) damages me (a real person) financially (for 15 $) - usually to obtain the service of 30 day gametime. That's fraud by definition. A crime such as fraud can't be waived or legalized by a third party EULA. In fact, since CCP offers a platform for others to commit fraud it is a "companion in crime" in that internet fraud. Helping fraudster to fraud will not go unpunished. If someone would cheat me out of my plexes, i'd bring in a charge against the scammer and CCP and they'd get "aggroed" by a prosecutor, very simple.
ITT: Internet lawyers
Better stop playing EvE then, because a PLEX is an in-game item like a CNR, and scammable like a CNR.
If you don't like CCP's rules, no-one's forcing you to give them your money. It's not like CCP haven't made the rules perfectly clear or anything. As for your hilarious legal interpretation, perhaps you'd like to back it up with, oh, I don't know, actual precedent.
Because if you can't (you can't), and you're not a court judge in Iceland (you're not), your legal opinion is valueless (it is).
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Maria Kalista
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:15:00 -
[35]
Scamming is ok. But I feel CCP must do more towards the beginners in EVE who have no idea how to treat contracts. Just saw yesterday a 1 month old being scammed out of 2 (non-existent) plexes through a freeform contract.
It is in CCP's own interest as well because that could easily be the last straw for the beginning player to say bye-bye to EVE.
Originally by: AkRoYeR
...the beauty of EvE. You have to live on the edge all the time. If you don't stay frosty, you will die!
Best game ever!
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:17:00 -
[36]
No. It si not alwoed. It is liek half reel and half faek creime.
I raelly feel asshame CCP is not doiging anyting.
--------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief |
Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them usually, to obtain property or services. Fraud can be committed through many methods, including mail, wire, phone, and the internet (computer crime and internet fraud). So if someone scams me for a plex, he (a real person) damages me (a real person) financially (for 15 $) - usually to obtain the service of 30 day gametime. That's fraud by definition. A crime such as fraud can't be waived or legalized by a third party EULA. In fact, since CCP offers a platform for others to commit fraud it is a "companion in crime" in that internet fraud. Helping fraudster to fraud will not go unpunished. If someone would cheat me out of my plexes, i'd bring in a charge against the scammer and CCP and they'd get "aggroed" by a prosecutor, very simple.
Okay, so if he used some trickery to get $15 from you, that may be fraud. However, with PLEXes, nothing of the sort is going on. You're getting internet credits with NO CASH VALUE which are ALL PROPERTY OF CCP from other people.
CCP could decide tomorrow to delete everything in game and you couldn't do a thing about it. What gives you a reason to believe that if players change some zeros and ones in CCP's database through dubious means that somehow constitutes fraud?
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire No. It si not alwoed. It is liek half reel and half faek creime.
I raelly feel asshame CCP is not doiging anyting.
Ahh, but it is allowed. That's the beauty of it.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:28:00 -
[39]
Taht is vewy bad. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief |
Elite Contract
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: iudex You simply fail
NO YOU
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Malcanis
ITT: Internet lawyers
Better stop playing EvE then, because a PLEX is an in-game item like a CNR, and scammable like a CNR.
If you don't like CCP's rules, no-one's forcing you to give them your money. It's not like CCP haven't made the rules perfectly clear or anything. As for your hilarious legal interpretation, perhaps you'd like to back it up with, oh, I don't know, actual precedent.
Because if you can't (you can't), and you're not a court judge in Iceland (you're not), your legal opinion is valueless (it is).
a) A plex is not like a CNR. You CNR has no monetary value. A plex has a value of 15 $ (or whatever it costs), that's the crucial diffrence.
b) CCPs rules don't matter for the question if it's a crime or not. If i make a rule that anyone who enters my house can be killed for free, this won't make murder legal, even if you sign my Eula with this rule before entering my house. Civil/contract law can't waive criminal law.
c) Asking for a precedent is ridiculous, since the plex system is only a few months old and there hasn't been anything comparable so far, it's legally unknown territory (yet), there are a lot of convictions for internet fraud that are not substantially different. Feel free to scam me for a plex in game and we will have a precedent very fast. When you then end up behind the bars for internet fraud, it will be a pleasure to visit you in jail and write "p0wned" on your prison cell door.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:42:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them usually, to obtain property or services. Fraud can be committed through many methods, including mail, wire, phone, and the internet (computer crime and internet fraud). So if someone scams me for a plex, he (a real person) damages me (a real person) financially (for 15 $) - usually to obtain the service of 30 day gametime. That's fraud by definition. A crime such as fraud can't be waived or legalized by a third party EULA. In fact, since CCP offers a platform for others to commit fraud it is a "companion in crime" in that internet fraud. Helping fraudster to fraud will not go unpunished. If someone would cheat me out of my plexes, i'd bring in a charge against the scammer and CCP and they'd get "aggroed" by a prosecutor, very simple.
Okay, so if he used some trickery to get $15 from you, that may be fraud. However, with PLEXes, nothing of the sort is going on. You're getting internet credits with NO CASH VALUE which are ALL PROPERTY OF CCP from other people.
CCP could decide tomorrow to delete everything in game and you couldn't do a thing about it. What gives you a reason to believe that if players change some zeros and ones in CCP's database through dubious means that somehow constitutes fraud?
No cash value you say, why does it cost 15 $ then ?
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba In criminal law, fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them usually, to obtain property or services. Fraud can be committed through many methods, including mail, wire, phone, and the internet (computer crime and internet fraud). So if someone scams me for a plex, he (a real person) damages me (a real person) financially (for 15 $) - usually to obtain the service of 30 day gametime. That's fraud by definition. A crime such as fraud can't be waived or legalized by a third party EULA. In fact, since CCP offers a platform for others to commit fraud it is a "companion in crime" in that internet fraud. Helping fraudster to fraud will not go unpunished. If someone would cheat me out of my plexes, i'd bring in a charge against the scammer and CCP and they'd get "aggroed" by a prosecutor, very simple.
Okay, so if he used some trickery to get $15 from you, that may be fraud. However, with PLEXes, nothing of the sort is going on. You're getting internet credits with NO CASH VALUE which are ALL PROPERTY OF CCP from other people.
CCP could decide tomorrow to delete everything in game and you couldn't do a thing about it. What gives you a reason to believe that if players change some zeros and ones in CCP's database through dubious means that somehow constitutes fraud?
No cash value you say, why does it cost 15 $ then ?
To quote the EULA:
Quote: You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
If you are playing the game, YOU AGREED to the EULA, so you agreed that your stuff in game has no value. Thus, your PLEXes in game have no value, regardless of what you paid for them.
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Edward Tang
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
No cash value you say, why does it cost 15 $ then ?
According to the EULA, which you accepted, you are not allowed to sell ingame itms for cash. So you have no way to convert your plex back into the 15$. It is also stated taht ALL ingame items belong to CCP and not to you. If CCP decides that its fine if one of THEIR plex items changes hand for 300k of THEIR isks, you cant do much...
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 09:59:00 -
[45]
Originally by: iudex Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k.
How is that a scam? It's the market at work — no more, no less. If he wants to try to buy one for 400k, then that's his right. If someone overbids him, then his attempt has failed. If no-one is overbidding him, and you accept that price, then you have just agreed that 400k is indeed the right value for a PLEX.
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba a) A plex is not like a CNR. You CNR has no monetary value.
Neither does your PLEX for one simple reason: you cannot exchange it for money. It doesn't matter how much it costs to get one — once converted into game time, the question of monetary value is no longer relevant.
Sure, you can argue that 1 PLEX = 30 days = $15, but notice that extra step you need to take. If your PLEX holds monetary value, then so does the CNR, because you're short-circuiting this connection and saying that 1 PLEX = $15. If you do that, then it's equally valid to say that 1 CNR = 1 PLEX = $15, at which point a PLEX becomes just like a CNR because both represent a monetary valule.
…and that's really the key word here: "represents." A plex has no monetary value (since it cannot be converted into cash). However, it represents a monetary value, but so does everything else in the game. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=GǪ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 10:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Khrillian
To quote the EULA:
Quote: You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
If you are playing the game, YOU AGREED to the EULA, so you agreed that your stuff in game has no value. Thus, your PLEXes in game have no value, regardless of what you paid for them.
Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts". Therefore a plex is not covered by this section.
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Val Karan
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Posted - 2009.02.21 10:26:00 -
[47]
Its not scamming, it's offers. You are offered 400k ISK for your 30 Day PLEX. If you DO sell it is up to you.
You converted your GTC which you could have safely traded over the website interface into something you trade ingame. The risk ingame might be higher, but just think about it: nothing keeps people from making "WTB 60D 500k" over in the GTC Forum, either. I really do wonder why noone's using it.
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Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.21 10:29:00 -
[48]
You're paying for adding the PLEX to the character, not an extended subscription. What if, for example, you sold two PLEXs clean, got your 600 million, then got scammed into buying two tritanium bars for 600 million ISK? You just lost your PLEXs, but you didn't.
Get it? Once you dump money into the virtual world, it's a free for all. But, as a responsible adult, you only waste disposable income on spaceship games anyway, right? If you spend $20 on a +25% experience potion in a micro store, only to find out you wasted its effects attending an online wedding, you don't get your money back. If you buy a PLEX and waste it because you weren't careful, you don't get your money back. _ |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 10:35:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 21/02/2009 10:35:50
Originally by: Trathen You're paying for adding the PLEX to the character, not an extended subscription. What if, for example, you sold two PLEXs clean, got your 600 million, then got scammed into buying two tritanium bars for 600 million ISK? You just lost your PLEXs, but you didn't.
See my reply 2 posts above, you lose the plexes worth 30$ for something that has no monetary value in the moment you give that plexes to someone in exchange for the isk. The isk you gain don't represent the 30$ anymore, someone else has that item of monetary value, while you received something that has no value (in terms of rl cash), therefore it doesn't matter what happens to the isk.
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Trathen
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.21 10:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
See my reply 2 posts above, you lose the plexes worth 30$ for something that has no monetary value in the moment you give that plexes to someone in exchange for the isk. The isk you gain don't represent the 30$ anymore, someone else has that item of monetary value, while you received something that has no value (in terms of rl cash), therefore it doesn't matter what happens to the isk.
Then it doesn't matter what happens to the PLEXs because they only have an ISK value. Y
You pay to have a virtual item placed on your account that happens to give you 30 days more of play time. This happens millions of times a day through something called "microtransactions" in F2P games. It is nothing new. You are purchasing a service, not a commodity. _ |
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Bimjo
Caldari Domination. Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:01:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: iudex Noticed a lot of scam attepmts aswell, for examle buy-orders in Jita for 400k.
How is that a scam? It's the market at work no more, no less. If he wants to try to buy one for 400k
He probably meant contracts that have the heading saying buyer pays 400 mill where as inside contract the offer is 400 k
One solution is to have a fixed heading for PLEX contracts,with the only variable being the cost,which is taken from the real price offered/sought after ====================
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dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:10:00 -
[52]
There is an official statement of a Dev elsewhere in this forum stating that PLEX scam is totally legal ____________________ Security Status 9.0
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Cone Filler
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:16:00 -
[53]
The shear number of tards is mind blowing, Listen VERY closely
GTC is NOT a PLEX, difference is GTC an out of game item while the PLEX is an ingame (forget eveything about gtc's when trading plex as selling the plex = selling a bhaalgorn)
And yes Anybody scamming real GTC's will get the banhammer pretty fast
But plex lol get real you already got what you paied for so tough luck ALWAYS look at contracts never accept a free form contract displaying a PLEX
a few guidelines just for you now get over you got scammed of a plex and wipe thoose tears and that runny nose
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Extortive
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:41:00 -
[54]
They are legal according to CCP but you could probably take it to court and win.
Like someone above said, just because CCP says its 'legal ingame' doesnt make it legal out of game and in your country.
CCP are probably just assuming the low value of a plex would make the chance of legal action by a disgruntled customer very very unlikely. Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:42:00 -
[55]
The only PLEX scam that I've seen (which is so totally obvious any chump that falls for it deserves to get screwed) is to set up a 400,000ISK buy order and than spam that you're paying 400,000,000ISK for a PLEX.
There is no reason for CCP to ban this sort of scam since (A) there is no official ISK value tied to each PLEX (B) PLEX are in-game items and (C) scamming in-game is allowed.
So, if you pay 400,000ISK for a PLEX it's your own stupidity to blame, and you have no recourse other than to come and advertise your own stupidity as you cry about it on the forums.
Long story short, if you don't want to risk getting scammed, buy GTC using the forums, and not PLEX in-game. Since the forums and GTC are external to the game, if you get scammed, the scammer will get banned.
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.21 11:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts".
This isn't the case at all for many PLEXes - you can get them on market, all ingame (so these obviously fall under the EULA definition of no value). So now you're drawing a distinction between PLEXes which are in the hands of the original buyer and those that were resold? Thus some PLEXes have no value while others do?
I don't know how the EULA could be any clearer:
Quote: Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including [stuff]...are the sole and exclusive property of CCP
ANYTHING you can see on your account is an attribute, a little data object somewhere in the CCP database, a PLEX, a corporation, an ISK total, whatever. ALL of it, is the property of CCP. "Including" denotes the beginning of a non exhaustive list of examples, so picking apart the words there won't help your argument.
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba You can't convert the plex to money, but this doesn't mean it doesn't represent a monetary value. You paid 15 $ it. It can be bought for 15 $ anytime. It's available on rl market for money. A CNR is not.
If you bought a CNR on ebay then it's worth something?
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S1m0n H0ldr1ck
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Posted - 2009.02.21 12:01:00 -
[57]
Edited by: S1m0n H0ldr1ck on 21/02/2009 12:02:00 Arguing against the so called plex "scam" would never stand up in court because the price you are paying or accepting for one is clearly displayed before you accept.
If you saw a car advertised in a dealership for 4000 would you then write a cheque for 40000000 when they told you the actual price?
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Ergebt Euch
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Posted - 2009.02.21 12:15:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Khrillian If you bought a CNR on ebay then it's worth something?
me thinks you can't buy a cnr on ebay because the guy trying to sell it doesn't own it
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 12:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts".
This isn't the case at all for many PLEXes - you can get them on market, all ingame (so these obviously fall under the EULA definition of no value). So now you're drawing a distinction between PLEXes which are in the hands of the original buyer and those that were resold? Thus some PLEXes have no value while others do?
There are no plexes that haven't been paid for, you don't "create" new ones on market, someone is giving you his plex and transfers the right, usually for something that has no out-of-game value (such as isk or items).
On the Eula thing: even if you say CCP owns that pixel-plex, you have to think about what that plex is from the legal point of view. What is the point and nature of the plex. In game it's a little graphics, like the pirate dogtags, but it represents the right to claim a service. A right/claim/demand to grant you 30 day access to the game - you bought this demand for real money, and it's this right that you are interested in, not a pixel-item.
This is the point where most people fail in this thread, they can't see the nature of the plex, its legal existance outside the game itself. It's a claim of monetary value, that is represented by the pixel-plex, and that is bound to the pixel-plex. The pixel-plex graphics itself might be property of CCP, the claim, that is represented by the pixel-plex is a right/claim against CCP. Without this right/claim/entitlement (or whatever the correct english legal term is) the pixel-plex has no value. So once you understand that those are two things (ingame graphics owned by ccp and out-of game claim against ccp) and realize how they are connected to each other (ingame-graphics change hands results in out-of-game claim change hands) you will understand why ingame-fraud becomes out-of game fraud when the plex is involved.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 13:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts".
This isn't the case at all for many PLEXes - you can get them on market, all ingame (so these obviously fall under the EULA definition of no value). So now you're drawing a distinction between PLEXes which are in the hands of the original buyer and those that were resold? Thus some PLEXes have no value while others do?
There are no plexes that haven't been paid for, you don't "create" new ones on market, someone is giving you his plex and transfers the right, usually for something that has no out-of-game value (such as isk or items).
On the Eula thing: even if you say CCP owns that pixel-plex, you have to think about what that plex is from the legal point of view. What is the point and nature of the plex. In game it's a little graphics, like the pirate dogtags, but it represents the right to claim a service. A right/claim/demand to grant you 30 day access to the game - you bought this demand for real money, and it's this right that you are interested in, not a pixel-item.
This is the point where most people fail in this thread, they can't see the nature of the plex, its legal existance outside the game itself. It's a claim of monetary value, that is represented by the pixel-plex, and that is bound to the pixel-plex. The pixel-plex graphics itself might be property of CCP, the claim, that is represented by the pixel-plex is a right/claim against CCP. Without this right/claim/entitlement (or whatever the correct english legal term is) the pixel-plex has no value. So once you understand that those are two things (ingame graphics owned by ccp and out-of game claim against ccp) and realize how they are connected to each other (ingame-graphics change hands results in out-of-game claim change hands) you will understand why ingame-fraud becomes out-of game fraud when the plex is involved.
It is explicitly a condition of sale of those PLEXes that the value of the right or claim is something that you can trade or negotiate in game at your own risk.
To use an analogy, you buy chips at a gambling house - which represent a claim for real money - but you cant sue the casino when the guy you folded to when you thought he had a full house turned out to have actually bluffed you with a pair of 9s.
The risk of losing the claim value of your chips is inherent to the nature of the game. Likewise, CCP have explicitly made PLEXs "losable". It's one of their characteristics, and if you don't like it, don't buy one.
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Joar Mendar
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.21 13:20:00 -
[61]
Originally by: iudex
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.
At least he's not a plagiarist.
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Cone Filler
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Posted - 2009.02.21 14:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Khrillian
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba some stuff
This isn't the case at all for many PLEXes - you can get them on market, all ingame (so these obviously fall under the EULA definition of no value). So now you're drawing a distinction between PLEXes which are in the hands of the original buyer and those that were resold? Thus some PLEXes have no value while others do?
There are no plexes that haven't been paid for, you don't "create" new ones on market, someone is giving you his plex and transfers the right, usually for something that has no out-of-game value (such as isk or items).
On the Eula thing: even if you say CCP owns that pixel-plex, you have to think about what that plex is from the legal point of view. What is the point and nature of the plex. In game it's a little graphics, like the pirate dogtags, but it represents the right to claim a service. A right/claim/demand to grant you 30 day access to the game - you bought this demand for real money, and it's this right that you are interested in, not a pixel-item.
This is the point where most people fail in this thread, they can't see the nature of the plex, its legal existance outside the game itself. It's a claim of monetary value, that is represented by the pixel-plex, and that is bound to the pixel-plex. The pixel-plex graphics itself might be property of CCP, the claim, that is represented by the pixel-plex is a right/claim against CCP. Without this right/claim/entitlement (or whatever the correct english legal term is) the pixel-plex has no value. So once you understand that those are two things (ingame graphics owned by ccp and out-of game claim against ccp) and realize how they are connected to each other (ingame-graphics change hands results in out-of-game claim change hands) you will understand why ingame-fraud becomes out-of game fraud when the plex is involved.
uhhhhh internet lawyer at work ..... lawl
IF you are so sure that this is illegal why dont you start a lawsuit then, instaed of posting pure BS on theese forums?
what do you hope to accomplish by this thread, there are 50+ thread about this issue and CCP still havent changed it.
On another note around x-mas 2008 there was a Danish isk buyer ( yes this is illegal but it helps to prove my point and CCP's for that matter ) he bought 13500 euros worth of isk now the method off payment was Visa -> PayPal -> isk seller.
This person tried to do a charge back due to lack off delivery, the National Bank and other financial institutes rulled it "no way" This person went as far as going to the Regional court ( 2. highest court in denmark ) and tried to get his money back, now what the court did was actually kinda laugh at him. the Verdict in short was "The chargeback is deemed a no go, since you used you visa to buy Virtual money (PayPal) and they did indeed deliver, and since you used thoose e-credits to buy something else, this is in no way Visa's responsebility" and since PayPal have no such charge back service he was basiclly ****ed.
But what does this have to do with anything you post? welll look at this way VISA -> Paypal (virtual item) -> isk seller Visa -> Plex (virtual item) -> ISK see the resemblence? the Fact is You already got what you payed for what you did afterwards is your problem nobody elses.
get the point? and if you try to do a lawsuit well GL as they will most likely come to same conclusion and btw read the EULA very closely.
Old post about this i know dont delete me plz
Verdict in danish
Verdict translated
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.21 16:06:00 -
[63]
Nobody has yet answered the question "Why don't you guys just use the Market?" It's impossible to get scammed there if you have your eyes open while you're playing the game. If you don't then you need to see a mental health professional. Simple as that. ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.21 17:15:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Firkragg There is a distinction between plex and GTCs
GTCs are out of game items that are a valid form of payment for the game. These are not scammable and if somone scams you why buying one using the secure method petition it
PLEX are in game items. They are subject to the rules that govern every in game item. You can trade and scam these all you want.
If you wanna be safe just trade GTCs on the forum using the secure method. If you wanna trade plexs in game you take the same risks as you do trading any item.
QFT - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Clementina
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.21 17:56:00 -
[65]
I can see Yakia TovilToba's argument somewhat. I will in turn argue that CCP has an obligation to honor a PLEX by giving to the person holding the PLEX, on demand, the right to play Eve for 30 days, or 15 bucks or whatever people commonly pay for the right to play Eve online for 30 days. They can't just delete the game or the PLEX and keep the money.
However I do not see how a person can be scammed in a real life legal sense by trading a PLEX for a deeply sub market quantity of isk. Any amount of isk has no real life value. So it doesn't matter if you were induced to sell your PLEX for 400k isk or if you managed to get an amount far exceeding that, (Like say 400b isk). Neither Amount has real life value, and in both cases the person selling the PLEX has traded something of value for something of no value. However, only one of these situations is being called getting scammed. A little table
PLEX ($15.00)-Sold for->400,000 isk ($0.00)-Equals->Scammed!!! but PLEX ($15.00)-Sold for->400,000,000,000 isk ($0.00)-Equals->Happy Customer
I don't know of many courts that will recognize one transaction as different from the other transaction. It will appear from the point of view of a real life court of law that you gave away your PLEX for nothing of your own free will in either case. The Argument actually applies to GTC for isk sales. Scamming those is not allowed for ingame goods and services because CCP says so. If you get scammed for a real life service though (Like say a webserver, or code for a killboard) Then you have a real life legal case.
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Khrillian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.21 17:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba There are no plexes that haven't been paid for, you don't "create" new ones on market, someone is giving you his plex and transfers the right, usually for something that has no out-of-game value (such as isk or items).
Again, CNRs have out of game value on ebay, yet you don't seem to be saying that you should be able to sue or whatever for your CNR loss. It's against the EULA, but not illegal, so how doesn't this give "real world value" to everything on your account?
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
On the Eula thing: even if you say CCP owns that pixel-plex, you have to think about what that plex is from the legal point of view. What is the point and nature of the plex. In game it's a little graphics, like the pirate dogtags, but it represents the right to claim a service. A right/claim/demand to grant you 30 day access to the game - you bought this demand for real money, and it's this right that you are interested in, not a pixel-item.
It's ultimately a point about ownership. PLEXes may have out of game value, but you don't own them, so you can't claim damages if they're destroyed. You can't have rights to something you don't own. Yes, you paid for them to put one on your account, but you don't own the PLEX.
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Gonada
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.21 18:48:00 -
[67]
So, in short:
Stupid People Should Not Play EVE.
Get out !
Please, jump into traffic
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2009.02.21 19:22:00 -
[68]
You cannot convert a PLEX into $15, therefore it is not worth $15, it is not worth $0.01, it is not worth anything!!!!!!
Why god why!!?? What's wrong with using the ****ing market!? Use your brain?
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Caelum Mortuos
Gallente Zero G Research and Development
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Posted - 2009.02.21 19:22:00 -
[69]
Sorry, don't know what came over me...
*goes back to getting scammed in extremely obvious ways*
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Imertu Solientai
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Posted - 2009.02.21 19:32:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Caelum Mortuos You cannot convert a PLEX into $15, therefore it is not worth $15, it is not worth $0.01, it is not worth anything!!!!!!
Why god why!!?? What's wrong with using the ****ing market!? Use your brain?
/signed
I really don't get why people are so stupid.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 23:00:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Clementina
I will in turn argue that CCP has an obligation to honor a PLEX by giving to the person holding the PLEX, on demand, the right to play Eve for 30 days, or 15 bucks or whatever people commonly pay for the right to play Eve online for 30 days. They can't just delete the game or the PLEX and keep the money. .... Neither Amount has real life value, and in both cases the person selling the PLEX has traded something of value for something of no value. However, only one of these situations is being called getting scammed. A little table
PLEX ($15.00)-Sold for->400,000 isk ($0.00)-Equals->Scammed!!! but PLEX ($15.00)-Sold for->400,000,000,000 isk ($0.00)-Equals->Happy Customer
It's nice to see that at least some people get it, unlike the tards who are posting below you, you recognise the true legal nature of the plex, "the right to play Eve for 30 days". This is your right against CCP that can't be owned by CCP, CCP has a contractual obligation towards the holder of the plex, it's therefore more than simply an in-game item. You bought this right, it has a real market value, the fact that you can't trade it back for 15$ but only redeem for a service (30 day game-time, that can otherwise be bought for ~15$) does not make it lose it's value from a criminal law perspective: it still can be subject of fraud.
You also see that the isk which the plex can be traded for has no real value (by CCP's definition, there are good reasons to question this as well for certain areas of law), so as you say, in a plex<->isk trade you give the plex away for nothing in both cases.
But the distinctive element here is whether it happened freely/voluntarily or not. If the trade was covered by free will, there are no problems, there is a freedom of contract, people can give away something of value in exchange for something without value anytime they want. If it's taken from you without that you know it, it's theft. If it's taken from you by the means of deception, it's fraud. The question is if your free will was affected when you did the transaction. The answer of this question then determines whether it was unproblematic, theft, fraud or one of the other crimes that tie on this attribute. It's hard to describe a legal problem in another language without having the right legal expressions (dict.cc is a little help but legal expressions have often a certain special meaning and can't just be translated, probably i didn't hit the right English terms), but since you showed a sense of understanding for legal problems with your post or at least an increased intelligence, I'm sure you'll understand what i mean.
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Mextli Demius
Caldari Beggar's banquet
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Posted - 2009.02.22 03:25:00 -
[72]
Yakia you seem to have missed the very simple point that you do not buy plex's for real money - you buy a GTC. That GTC entitles you to either (at your option) 60 days game time, or you may exchange it for 2 ingame items called plexes.
Once you have either an additional 60 days on your account or 2 ingame plex items you have received the full value of the GTC you paid rl cash for and the sale contract is fullfilled. You have no further rights with respect to the rl cash you paid. You've got what you paid for.
If you elect for 60 days game time, but then fail to log in for the entire period you would not have any claim - equally if you elect to take 2 ingame plexes and then use them unwisely by selling them to a scammer thats tough
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Jhoria Englside
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Posted - 2009.02.22 06:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 21/02/2009 10:41:10
Originally by: Khrillian
To quote the EULA: You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
If you are playing the game, YOU AGREED to the EULA, so you agreed that your stuff in game has no value. Thus, your PLEXes in game have no value, regardless of what you paid for them.
Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts". Therefore a plex is not covered by this section.
Originally by: Tippia Neither does your PLEX for one simple reason: you cannot exchange it for money. ...
If you do that, then it's equally valid to say that 1 CNR = 1 PLEX = $15, at which point a PLEX becomes just like a CNR because both represent a monetary valule.
and that's really the key word here: "represents." A plex has no monetary value (since it cannot be converted into cash). However, it represents a monetary value, but so does everything else in the game.
You can't convert the plex to money, but this doesn't mean it doesn't represent a monetary value. You paid 15 $ it. It can be bought for 15 $ anytime. It's available on rl market for money. A CNR is not. You now conclude that this must count for the CNR aswell, since you can trade the plex for a CNR in game. But in terms of monetary vallue this happens: the moment you trade the plex for a CNR you (volutnary, not through deception) lose the value to someone else and get something that has no value instead. You devaluate the plex for yourself, someone else gets an item of monetary value for an item that has no value. So the value of the plex remains 15 $, while the CNR remains an item of no monetary value. From a legal point of view you make a (voluntary !) bad deal. If this exchange happens because you have been deceived (scammed), you lose the item of monetary value to someone else - subsume this process under the definition of fraud and you will find that it matches perfectly.
/edit: just an additional thought: you can't sell the plex for 15$ but you can trade it for a service that is worth that much (service = 1 month access to the game). You can't trade your CNR for such a service.
you keep assuming someone bought a GTC and converted it. stop. someone could buy these in game on the market with isk. im sorry you are too short sighted to realize this. should ccp keep track of those that are bought with isk and those converted but never traded...or just treat them as they are and stated to be? in game items with no special things about them? be glad you cant undock with them or we would see alot more crying from people like you.
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Jhoria Englside
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Posted - 2009.02.22 06:47:00 -
[74]
oh and you can trade your cnr for that service. trade it for a plex.
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2009.02.22 08:36:00 -
[75]
Plex scamming is currently allowed, but CCP has a very long history of reversing themselves. Even if you petition and ask if something is allowed, even if you get a sworn statement with their signature and that of a witness- there is no reason why they can or will not immediately change their mind.
The thing about plex scamming is that you are potentially scamming CCP or a player out of real money. This is why GTC scamming was bannable.
I really see PLEX scamming as being an untenable proposition and I wouldn't be surprised if CCP started to retroactively ban people for it any time now.
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Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.22 10:14:00 -
[76]
I still can't figure out how people are getting scammed with PLEX's. Please explain. ---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.02.22 10:20:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Par'Gellen I still can't figure out how people are getting scammed with PLEX's. Please explain.
1. Don't read the price. 2. … 3. Non-profit! GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=GǪ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Par'Gellen
Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.22 10:35:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Par'Gellen I still can't figure out how people are getting scammed with PLEX's. Please explain.
1. Don't read the price. 2. 3. Non-profit!
Hehe yeah but if that's true then exactly how drunk do you have to be to:- Do it.
- Post on the forums that you did it.
?
---
To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:13:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 22/02/2009 11:13:53 If I could decide, then yes scamming with PLEX's should be a banable offense. Alas I do not, and CCP has clearly stated that you are allowed to scam with PLEX items in the same way that you are allowed to scam with any other item in game.
That being said though, I will still report any PLEX scammer that deliberately targets rookies in corp chat with his scams. That one falls fairly close to can baiting of rookies in my opinion. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:16:00 -
[80]
Seriously, anyone with IQ over 40 can spot all of those scams. Just read the contract, and never use the station trading feature (people try to scam with that, at least at Jita).
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Demitria Fernir
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:16:00 -
[81]
non-secure GTC trades were banned due to GTC NOT being an ingame item, thus not trackable from CCP side.
now, PLEX cards are. _______________________________________________ 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 |
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:25:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jhoria Englside
you keep assuming someone bought a GTC and converted it. stop. someone could buy these in game on the market with isk. im sorry you are too short sighted to realize this. should ccp keep track of those that are bought with isk and those converted but never traded...or just treat them as they are and stated to be? in game items with no special things about them? be glad you cant undock with them or we would see alot more crying from people like you.
THIS!!!!!! This right here!!! your transaction was for either 60 days of play or 2 ingame items that can be sold IN GAME, FOR ISK according to WHAT PRICE YOU THINK IS FAIR for it. Once you choose 1 of the 2 options, the outcome of it results in the transaction being completed, thus no monetary value is applied to the end product. If you opted for a PLEX then you have opted for the right to own something of no tangable substance other than pixillated icon that through usage allows more in game play time. its up to the 2 parties to decide what they feel fair as an in game value to be traded for it, and if someone wishes to scam someone else out of it, then as it is in eve, using contracts, its fully within the games parameters for them to scam...its an in game item with no out of game value in monetary terms. Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:50:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 21/02/2009 10:41:10
Originally by: Khrillian
To quote the EULA: You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
Ok, but read the underlined part again, this section covers stuff that results from playing the game. Which is everything you earn/build up, all your usual ingame stuff. But not the plex. The plex you acquire by an out of game action, by paying real money to the company, not by "PLAY through your Accounts". Therefore a plex is not covered by this section.
Originally by: Tippia Neither does your PLEX for one simple reason: you cannot exchange it for money. ...
and that's really the key word here: "represents." A plex has no monetary value (since it cannot be converted into cash). However, it represents a monetary value, but so does everything else in the game.
You can't convert the plex to money, but this doesn't mean it doesn't represent a monetary value. You paid 15 $ it. It can be bought for 15 $ anytime. It's available on rl market for money. A CNR is not. You now conclude that this must count for the CNR aswell, since you can trade the plex for a CNR in game. But in terms of monetary vallue this happens: the moment you trade the plex for a CNR you (volutnary, not through deception) lose the value to someone else and get something that has no value instead. You devaluate the plex for yourself, someone else gets an item of monetary value for an item that has no value. So the value of the plex remains 15 $, while the CNR remains an item of no monetary value. From a legal point of view you make a (voluntary !) bad deal. If this exchange happens because you have been deceived (scammed), you lose the item of monetary value to someone else - subsume this process under the definition of fraud and you will find that it matches perfectly.
/edit: just an additional thought: you can't sell the plex for 15$ but you can trade it for a service that is worth that much (service = 1 month access to the game). You can't trade your CNR for such a service.
.....as soon as the plex is given it reprisents an in game item with no real world value, such as everything in this game.
i can see what your getting at, but your grasping the wrong end of the stick...here:-
item A is a game time card GTC it costs $30 it is a choice you make to part with money
item B is in game play, it is the result of a choice out of game and is the end product of a transaction to prolong the usage of the product and so has no refundable value
item C is a plex, it is an in game based item that has no out of game value, it is there to both keep players playing and stimulate the in game market and keep isk moving arround.
what your mistakenly doing is thinking 2xC = A therefor C must equal $15....this is wrong as a plex has no monetary value attached to it, the plex is the service the $15 gets you...an in game item with no real world value. once the transaction is finished its within the holders hands whether he uses it to extend game time, scam, or fairly trade for isk in game. game time once baught has no value, and once used, a GTC has none....as soon as you opt for a PLEX you are opting for a final transaction from CCP to u...what you do after that is up to you and has no baring in rl value, its paying for an in-game item as a service. Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.22 11:56:00 -
[84]
another example, there are many free to play ionline mmorpgs, like Silkroad. In Silkroad you can pay for items ingame with real money, like paying for pets and familliars which can be traded, killed, lost, etc...The point is once you have spent that money it is your item, an in game item with no inherent value....with it you can PK players, scam them out of cash, do whatever you want with it, even give it away fro free if you wish. THEREFOR scamming with plexes is seen as exactly the same thing...an in game item with wich you can do whatever you wish. Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Angelic Orange
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.02.22 12:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: MAX MEXX Before the introduction of the "safe GTC trade system" gm's statet it was a banable offence to scam pepole with fake GTC's. Is this stil the case?
OR wy has this ben changed?
It's stil the same scam as before, but now using ingame Contract systems.
PLEX are an ingame item and all the rules attached to ingame items allow scamming. If you don't want to be scammed, the GTC trading forum is still up. Do your business there or accept that you may be scammed.
As a rational human being with the slightest of intellect, it seems fair to me. Republic lovin' ass kisser. |
Mashie Saldana
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2009.02.22 12:26:00 -
[86]
OP, you need to change the title as they are allowed already.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.22 12:35:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Angelic Orange PLEX are an ingame item and all the rules attached to ingame items allow scamming. If you don't want to be scammed, the GTC trading forum is still up.
This si stoopid. Why maek PLEX in gaem item os peopel losign reel monii? Why not maek direct PLEX/ISK assount tarnsfer? Direct tarnsfer is harded to scam.
--------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief |
Frobbe
Gallente The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.02.22 13:21:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba internetlawyerin'
Counterpoint: Since i cannot play this game without paying for it using some sort of monetary unit, you can apply a value to every ingame item. hence, if you lose a ship to rats, you can, using your own arguments as presented, sue CCP for fraud as you have lost an item of monetary value.
but that'd be straight silly now wouldn't it? |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.22 14:20:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 22/02/2009 11:13:53 If I could decide, then yes scamming with PLEX's should be a banable offense. Alas I do not, and CCP has clearly stated that you are allowed to scam with PLEX items in the same way that you are allowed to scam with any other item in game.
That being said though, I will still report any PLEX scammer that deliberately targets rookies in corp chat with his scams. That one falls fairly close to can baiting of rookies in my opinion.
Rookies with enough ISK to buy a PLEX don't need any looking after.
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Malthros Zenobia
Cadian Special Operations Command
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Posted - 2009.02.22 15:46:00 -
[90]
Yakia isn't grasping the simple basis of a PLEX.
You pay to create a PLEX, an ingame item. You get what you paid for, and you know that all in game items are owned by CCP. If you foolishly give up that PLEX, then that is your fault, not CCP's, and while many courts in the US like to protect stupidity, you still have no actual case unless you get one of those lowest-denominator judges.
When you are scammed trying to buy a PLEX you are just SOL. Your isk you got scammed out of has no value and being scammed trying to buy a PLEX is no different than being scammed trying to buy a ship or module.
If you don't want to get scammed while buying them, then only view auction/item exchange contracts. Anyone who views contracts without filtering out freeform ones are just asking for self-ownage.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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