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Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 21:54:00 +0000

I do understand your frustration, Pilot Brightman, I truly do. But it is as you said, you cannot save the universe. I learned this quite well, some time ago. And I also understand that the tapestry, so to speak, is being pulled in a great many directions. Thank God it is quite strong, and well made.

I do not think... no, I know... that the Empire will never fall to an external military force. Its too big, and there are too many of us. But the Empire can fall, rotting from the inside. It can fall from the greed of the fools that worship money, and can fall from the rigid insanity of the fanatics. It can fall from the apathy of the people. But be conquered? Never.

What I fear is just that, you know, the Empire/tapestry being pulled apart by its own creators. They know just where to pull, and what threads. I fear their blindness, their unthinking idiocy.

The tale of the Golden City keeps me awake at nights sometimes. I read it to Lesharu for the first time the other day, and she grasped the implications immediately. Perhaps, sometime, I will tell you that story, child's tale that it is. Parable, more like, told to me by my Father when I was small.

Alas, I have another appointment soon, and cannot linger. Another day, Pilot Brightman.

May the Strength of God aid you in your times of Darkness and Despair.

Industral Slavery - by Faraelle Brightman

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 21:41:00 +0000

*Flipping through the IGS threads, Faraelle also sighs.*

Veron, I think I like you but I wish I were an economist, one that could run the numbers and find solutions that would neither be disasterious to you nor your slaves. It would not be easy by any means and I don't know if it would guarentee your...shall I say, accustomed standard of living. But in this large universe there must be a way to proove that it would not bring about the ruin you describe.

Alas I can't solve all the universe's problems and I've more than enough closer to home. But with the way things are, many threads or the tapestry you describe are allready being pulled and the ones pulling the threads might not discriminate between the cruel and the kind Holders. And that's above and beyond my beliefs against slavery which really shouldn't need additional explaination insomuch as it mostly matches with those of my peers.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 21:25:00 +0000

Apologies, power surge shorted the transmitter>

As I was saying, economically, I cant afford to pay people a salary that would support them. As it is, I dont pay my slaves, but They also dont pay for housing, clothing, food, etc.

I also determine things slaves will need in the future. If I know that my slave population will increase by -x-% in the next year, I simply assign some more housing to be constructed... by my own slaves. Its not bad housing, its actually quite good. I only pay for materials. One of my retainers draws up designs for the housing units or barracks (depending on the ultimate purpose of the slaves, family units are assigned to breeding couples, soldiers get barracks, etc.) and the slaves build it according to the specs. They tend to do a good job, too, since others like them will be living there shortly, and I keep my slaves in static groupings (villages, really), so its really their neighbors accommodations they are building, and that lends the personal touch to it.

Same thing for food ,clothing medical care, spiritual needs, etc. You plan ahead and make sure supply is in place for the inevitable growth of your stock. You care for them and see to their needs. They serve you and honor you with their loyalty.

I can afford all this because I dont have to pay for the labor to harvest the food, build the building, make the clothes, etc. All I pay for is material, and thats also usually obtained locally, which makes it mine or its something owned by a retainer or liege, which I can tax.

Veron Daerth laughs>

Im not really a slave master, I am the government. All Holders are, to an extent. We have our own laws we have to abide by, but within our domains, our word is Law, so long as it is in accordance with Imperial Law. If I simply let all my slaves go, if all slaves were let go, the economy would collapse. I know you dont particularly care, but as the person whose economy is doing the collapsing, I care. And you can bet my neighbors do too.

As it is, my slaves are cared for, and very well, at that. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the process by which my slaves and Holdings are governed. I know its a long read, but you might find it rather enlightening.

What government can say they do a better job than I? What people can claim full, guaranteed work, housing, food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and frankly, the comfort of knowing you have served something far greater then yourself? And I am not speaking of myself.

All my slaves serve the Empire and through it, God. The products they produce, from ammunition to clothing to foodstuffs, all benefit the Empire. They create the foundations of our civilization and they are rewarded accordingly. They know they will not be cast off to die when they are old, they know they will not be unheard or forgotten by their ruler/s when they become politically inconvenient, they know that they will always have their families and homes, always, they know they will be judged fairly, and in accordance with Imperial and local law. And in return for this, all they have to do, is serve me.

They are not the ones to pity, Pilot, they are the ones to envy. By serving me, and through me, the Empire, my slaves know they will be cared for, always. They dont need to go home, they are already there, they dont need to go find their families, they already have them. They have no need to seek meaning in their lives, they already have it, and lastly, they need never fear discord or dissolution, at least not from me, their Lord and Master.

They serve me, and I serve them, in a way. I am their Lord, they are my people. You ask me to cast them out, to cut them loose? To abandon them to the uncaring vagaries of fate? I ask you to do the same to your own children, your own family, your own people.

May God grant you Wisdom Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 20:58:00 +0000

My apologies, Pilots, I was unable to escape several budget meetings and a few hearings today, and didnt have an opportunity to respond to you until now.

Pilot Poreuomai, the situation is vastly more complex than you imagine. What you dont seem to understand is that the responses to your questions have been made as a "stand alone" response. What that means is that I have attempted to respond to each question or point individually and to outline a response to that singular question or response.

What this has done is rob you of the "big picture" point of view. Frankly, all the problems caused by slavery and also the problems that would be caused by the mass freeing of all the slaves are interwoven, much like a great tapestry. There are flaws in theis "tapestry" but it is a complete work, and should you attempt to "pull" a single thread, you risk unraveling the entire thing, with chaos and destruction being the only thing you really accomplish.

Example. Problem: Some, I'll go so far as to say quite a few, slaves are mistreated. Solution: Pass laws to prevent that. Problem: Who decides whats "abuse" and not. Solution: Impartial judiciary. Problem: If the judges own or represent a society that owns slaves, they are biased. Solution: Get extra-social judges. Problem: Judges from outside the society have to inherent investment in that society and cannot understand its complexities and reasoning, resulting in the rejection of their judgement by those who do (the slave owners) and the rest of the society.

Get the idea? And thats only a small fragment of the entire problem. Add in politics, liberalization from galactic social contact, fragmentation of the legislative body (or factions that have influence on the legislative body), religion and its inherent issues (cults, zealots, fanatics, differing views/interpretations of Holy Writ, etc.), conflicting struggles for secular power and authority and wealth, external pressure from hostile organizations (Matari freedom fighters and terrorists) and polities (the govt. of the former Republic and the Federation), and last but not least, the slaves themselves.

All these factors and more combine to make the entire issue of slavery, industrial or not, in the Empire almost "unsolvable" in the assumption it needs solving at all.

Lets assume I free my slaves, all of them. Thats about 1.3 million people spread out across dozens of facilities, planets, colonies, stations, ships, etc. A pittance really. What organization has the resources to take them all in? Feed, house, clothe, care for them, medically, psychologically, etc? So lets say they all dont want to leave? That only about 1/5th actually decide to go somewhere else. Who takes their places? Who does the work they do now? I cant get that many workers from other Empires, they wouldnt come here, to a foreign nation, with alien customs, speaking alien languages, where they know no-one, nothing at all? Would you volunteer for that, and all at a "wage" that I can afford?

Veron Daerth laughs>

You may think others are that foolish, but I know better. They arent.

Industral Slavery - by Garion Avarr

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 17:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Poreuomai

Originally by: Veron Daerth
They wander aimlessly until picked up by another slaver as indigents and sold, most probably to someone not nearly as nice as myself. Hooray.

There are plenty of Minmatar groups which would look after them if you handed them over.

Originally by: Veron Daerth
As for choosing their employer? What employer? I am about as liberal as you can get and still be an Imperial citizen. If you think my neighbors would even talk to you about this, your dreaming.

Like I said, they need not stay on that planet. There are others who would gladly pay them a fair wage for their hard work, something you seem unwilling to do.

I believe Lord Daerth has mentioned the problems with this before. But briefly: while I am sure that the aims of nearly all of these organizations are quite noble, there are undoubtedly some preditors among them, and refugees make easy prey. Second, the economic situation in the Republic is not particularly great, and so many of the groups may not have the proper resources to care for large groups of freed slaves properly -- especially with all the ones so recently abducted by the Minmatar in your war of aggression against us. Third, after having lived among the Amarr for so long, the culture of these slaves are vastly different from any Minmatar that would take care of them, and they would likely not be happy in their new lives because of this. Last, I seem to recall that many of his slaves are not Minmatar or of mixed race. Are these Minmatar groups proposing to come for our people as well, and not just theirs?

Originally by: Poreuomai
Originally by: Veron Daerth
I free my slaves. They have no money, no homes, nothing that I havent given them up until now. Yes, they might actually have some small assets, clothing, furniture, etc, but nothing to live off of. So, they have nowhere to go, and no other jobs. They have no home, no food, nothing of real value.

After all the years of working for you, they still have nothing of real value for themselves? Can you not see the injustice in that?

If there really are other groups that are capable of and willing to provide for and help these slaves, and Lord Daerth does not have to prevent them from leaving, perhaps it is they who do not see an injustice in this. Perhaps they are happy with their current situation. Perhaps, even, they do nt want your freedom.
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Industral Slavery - by Poreuomai

Thu, 2 Oct 2009 09:07:00 +0000

Edited by: Poreuomai on 02/10/2008 09:12:20

Originally by: Veron Daerth
I free my slaves. They have no money, no homes, nothing that I havent given them up until now. Yes, they might actually have some small assets, clothing, furniture, etc, but nothing to live off of. So, they have nowhere to go, and no other jobs. They have no home, no food, nothing of real value.

After all the years of working for you, they still have nothing of real value for themselves? Can you not see the injustice in that?

Originally by: Veron Daerth
They wander aimlessly until picked up by another slaver as indigents and sold, most probably to someone not nearly as nice as myself. Hooray.

There are plenty of Minmatar groups which would look after them if you handed them over.

Quote:
I make enough off their labor to pay for all their expenses and then have a bit left over to put back into the operations and businesses they labor in. I dont have a magic hat to pull money out of.

You just said yourself that ...

Quote:
"I read somewhere that the average citizen of the Federation makes about 10,000 isk a year, or equivalent. I make .. what... a thousand times that on a single job? Ten thousand times?"

You have more than enough money.

Quote:
I pay them a very small stipend already, this allows them to go out and "stimulate the economy" a bit, even if its only locally.

Perhaps you should pay them a bit more, that would solve the problem you noted above.

Quote:
That aside, if I paid them full wages, and charged them for everything they used, from the clothing they bought, to the homes they lived in, to the food they ate, all of which is mine, grown on my lands, and purchased from markets that are in towns that I also own and rule, the wage would be... outrageous.

Yet you said you make 10,000 time that in a single job. I suggest you pay those who work for you the wage they deserve.

Quote:
As for choosing their employer? What employer? I am about as liberal as you can get and still be an Imperial citizen. If you think my neighbors would even talk to you about this, your dreaming.

Like I said, they need not stay on that planet. There are others who would gladly pay them a fair wage for their hard work, something you seem unwilling to do.

Industral Slavery - by Beletre

Wed, 1 Oct 2009 21:43:00 +0000

While I continue to mostly agree with you on the way things are, if not the way they should be Pilot Daerth, I feel it important to mention a news article published not too long back about the need in the Federation for a greater level of automation. Because the Minmatar imigrants are making enough money that they no longer want the low level jobs.

Yes, immigrant workers tend to find crap jobs that are rather similar to slavery. And yes, many remain in those jobs for their entire lives, and their children the same. However, a fair number find upward social mobility, and take advantage of it, becomeing whatever it is they care to be. While the possibility of upward social mobility is possible in Amarrian society, I can't say the likelyhood is anywhere near as high.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Wed, 1 Oct 2009 14:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Poreuomai
Edited by: Poreuomai on 01/10/2008 13:48:33

Which alternatives? They don't seem to have any access to alternatives!

Why not allow them to become employees and work for a living and even choose their employer?

Thats a two-parter, Pilot. The answer to the first could be best illustrated with an example.

I free my slaves. They have no money, no homes, nothing that I havent given them up until now. Yes, they might actually have some small assets, clothing, furniture, etc, but nothing to live off of. So, they have nowhere to go, and no other jobs. They have no home, no food, nothing of real value. They wander aimlessly until picked up by another slaver as indigents and sold, most probably to someone not nearly as nice as myself. Hooray.

They cant pay to get off-planet, they have nowhere to go off-planet, and nothing to eat while they get there. Simply living is expensive, Pilot. Perhaps you forget that. I read somewhere that the average citizen of the Federation makes about 10,000 isk a year, or equivalent. I make .. what... a thousand times that on a single job? Ten thousand times? Regardless, my own upkeep eats that quite nicely, since ships and weapons arent cheap or invulnerable. Where would they get the money to move? Me? I make enough off their labor to pay for all their expenses and then have a bit left over to put back into the operations and businesses they labor in. I dont have a magic hat to pull money out of.

The second part. Firstly, I pay them a very small stipend already, this allows them to go out and "stimulate the economy" a bit, even if its only locally. Its also where they get the clothing and furniture and such for their quarters. Its not enough for them to live off of, and its not a wage. Its an incentive, one of several I use to motivate them towards good and quality labor. If you squint, its already "employment"... kind of.

That aside, if I paid them full wages, and charged them for everything they used, from the clothing they bought, to the homes they lived in, to the food they ate, all of which is mine, grown on my lands, and purchased from markets that are in towns that I also own and rule, the wage would be... outrageous. Or.. they would be homeless.. again.

As for choosing their employer? What employer? I am about as liberal as you can get and still be an Imperial citizen. If you think my neighbors would even talk to you about this, your dreaming. Just because I am foolish enough to debate this with you, doesnt mean they are. No-one else would employ them, they'd re-enslave them, probably thinking they were escaped.

May God grant you Wisdom, Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Poreuomai

Wed, 1 Oct 2009 13:44:00 +0000

Edited by: Poreuomai on 01/10/2008 13:48:33

Which alternatives? They don't seem to have any access to alternatives!

Why not allow them to become employees and work for a living and even choose their employer?

Industral Slavery - by Rodj Blake

Wed, 1 Oct 2009 11:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Poreuomai
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Actually, Pilot Poreuomai, I dont have to prevent them from going anywhere.

Then ... why are they still slaves?

Maybe it's because they consider slavery to be better than the alternatives.

Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

Industral Slavery - by Poreuomai

Wed, 1 Oct 2009 10:59:00 +0000

Originally by: Veron Daerth
Actually, Pilot Poreuomai, I dont have to prevent them from going anywhere.

Then ... why are they still slaves?

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 19:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Cipher7

They don't do slavery for the direct profit.

They do slavery to re-inforce the "natural order" and keep their own underclass in line.

For every Amarrian landowner, there's millions of commoners who really have a disgusting standard of living, and the only way to justify that is for slaves to be even worse off.

Their religion is just a tool to keep the poor from strangling the rich.

Spare me the liberal tripe, Pilot. Slavery was supposed to be for the ultimate benefit of the one enslaved. The idea goes something like this.

Heathens are too uncivilized and ignorant to know they are heathens. We take them and make them aware of their lack of guidance and introduce them to the idea of God and His Work, namely the universe and the way He wishes us to behave.

Along the way, they arent going to take too well to this, not at first at any rate, so they have to be forced into submission so as to better accept the facts of life. They live and die, their children do so as well. They have the scripture and culture of Amarr hammered into them every day for the rest of their lives. Their children as well. Generations pass. After many generations pass, they arent slaves anymore, they have been accepted into the social order of the Empire and its Faith. And you now have lots more Imperial citizens, all believing the same things (mostly) as the rest.

You have less unrest, less disorder, less chaos. Yes, citizens of the Empire trade a lot of the freedoms you take for granted for other things, namely, safety, stability and yes, order. Its gotten the Empire into space long before the rest of you, its gotten the Empire up out of the mud of the Dark Times long before the rest of you. Its served us well, up until recently.

You would be surprised to know that most Amarrian citizens own their own shops, homes, lands and such. They dont have a "disgusting" standard of life. Most slaves arent worse off, the majority of slave owners arent even Holders with vast eststes, its the middle class citizens that use the slaves to clean their shops, do the scut work in the factories, do the manual labor on the farms, mend the fences, shovel the ditches, etc. You know, the annoying stuff that the Gallente use the Matari immigrants for.

And if things were as bad as you say, as terrible, no religion would prevent the masses of the Empire from overthrowing the powerful. With all the competing factions in the Empire, one of the Heirs could conceivably use the mass unrest and discontent to throw down his rivals and take control in that manner. Think the Heirs wouldnt disobey the Faith? Look at Khanid. Hell and Fire, fool, look at Sarum. Outright rebellion in the former and either a miracle of God or some form of chicanery in the latter.

And as for disgusting standards of living, I suggest you go look around some of the Matari refugee camps, or the shelters in the Gallente cities, or even the alleyways of the Federation. You will find there the castoffs, the disabled, the homeless, those too poor to even afford government subsidized housing. Fool, I answer to the lowest commoner or slave in my care should I fail them, before God if no-one else.

Who answers to the poor and homeless in the Federation? No-one, thats who. They are a pathetic demographic that special interests use for leverage, and thats it. Even the Matari are better than that.

So go solve your own problems, find your own answers. When everyone in your nation of choice is fed and happy and sheltered and safe, come let me know. Then you might get to tell me how to care for my own people and slaves.

I am sick and tired of the idiots that speak without the slightest knowledge of what its really like in the Empire, who spout the sound bites of the Scope reports and special news broadcasts. How about you actually do some real research into it?

May God guide you all, Pilots, some of you really need it.

Industral Slavery - by Cipher7

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 16:49:00 +0000

They don't do slavery for the direct profit.

They do slavery to re-inforce the "natural order" and keep their own underclass in line.

For every Amarrian landowner, there's millions of commoners who really have a disgusting standard of living, and the only way to justify that is for slaves to be even worse off.

Their religion is just a tool to keep the poor from strangling the rich.
---

Industral Slavery - by Beletre

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 13:21:00 +0000

As with many things, there are levels within levels. It's generally accepted that the rules, aka laws, applying to pod pilots is rather diffrent then those applied to regular citizens. Yes, technically, many of the things said here are considered heritical, and should, in theory, result in disiplinary action. This applies not just to citizens of the Amarr, but various members of the other Empires. I'm quite certain many of my own statements are troubeling to those in power in the Federation. However, to be blunt, we're far too important to arrest, fine, or punish. Directly, at any rate. Indirectly, who knows what's possible in the assorted twists and turns of politics? The next time a representive offers you work, may want to look closely at just what is offered, just what isn't, and the possible reasons for it.

All that said, let me see if a bit of consensus can be found. Our discussions here seem to indicate that the majority agree that Industral Slavery, as it's understood here, is neither economically ideal, nor in line with scripture. However, it is easy and convient, and can offer those in power short term profits as well as a person ego boost, having someone to crush underfoot and all that.

So if Industral Slavery is far less then ideal, and can in some instances lead to atrocities of abuse, how can it be lessened, curtailed, or perhaps even abolished, in a manner acceptable to all involved?

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 05:58:00 +0000

((Thanks Garion, I knew that, but didnt really think of the ramifications of that. Hmm...have to hope that the spies and agents for the various law enforcement agencies missed all my posts then. Either that, or the appointment with my new agent in Diaderi is a set up... most distressing.))

Industral Slavery - by Garion Avarr

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 05:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Veron Daerth
((I was under the impression that it was generally accepted that only the "real" podders knew of the IGS, that way we can say what we really think and it explains why I can still enter the Empire and not get blasted by the Navy. It also explains why I can say "Sarum is wrong, and an idiot" if I wanted to and still talk to any of the agents in the empire and not get arrested. If I was wrong, someone lemme know))

((Non-pod pilot NPCs and NPCs representing government groups have posted here. I think it's safe to say that while your average joe can't access this and likely doesn't know about this, people with connections can, and the governments are certainly monitoring what we say.))
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Industral Slavery - by A Soporific

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 05:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: A Soporific
Pilot Subaka, are your assets located within the State?

I have stated this many times, my estate is well within Federation territory. The Sing Laison region, within the system of Rancer, both planetary and orbiting. I haven't been in the State in quite some time, CONCORD's decision to flag me as KOS makes travel less pleasant than ever before.

*a coy, almost daring grin crosses her face*

Why do you ask? Do you have issues with my business practices? If so, I welcome you to come and negotiate with myself or one of my associates at one of the entrances to my home system.

*Barely containing her laughter at the thought of the greeting her associates will provide Pilot A Sporific she focus' on Lord Daerth's words*

I always knew you had a rebel streak in you, maybe there's hope for you yet. But don't they have "Paladins" that are Pilots? Surely the Empire has some way to view these conversations; Hell, some of my slave engineers have devised a way to view (though not respond) these communiques. Apparently there was a pool going the other day whether I was going to actively go "hunting" for someone who mentioned me in a less than polite manner.

As for being contrary, why do you think a business woman like myself lives in the backwater of Federation space? Business is quite good here, far superior to living under State regulations, and close enough to the Metropolis region to pick up more slaves should the need arise.

I'm merely attempting to establish jurisdiction. While I freelance extensively as a "conflict resolution specialist" for the Caldari Business Tribunal out of the Sinq Lasion Branch in Pozirblant, I don't see why I would recieve a request to deal with your activities unless your activities spark complaint with other Caldari ventures in the region. Besides, my gifts trend towards arbitration rather than blunt retribution.

Your choice to violate Federation law is no business of mine, I still would recommend avoiding undue conflict with citizens of the state. Less than civil attention is rarely good for the bottom line. If this can be managed then there may be a mutually profitable relationship to be had here.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 04:00:00 +0000

Miss Subaka, like any legal system that evolved over many thousands of years it has its little twists and turns. My word alone in here is not sufficient to charge me with anything, even if it could be seen by someone with any authority in the Empire. And if they did..well, I'll take my chances. It wouldnt be the first time I had to shoot my way out of a docking port, and megapulse lasers are ever so nice for that. Remind me to tell you about that sometime.

Regardless, I am quite sure that few people in the galaxy at large even know of this forum ((I was under the impression that it was generally accepted that only the "real" podders knew of the IGS, that way we can say what we really think and it explains why I can still enter the Empire and not get blasted by the Navy. It also explains why I can say "Sarum is wrong, and an idiot" if I wanted to and still talk to any of the agents in the empire and not get arrested. If I was wrong, someone lemme know)) as they lack the general ability to see it or to even know of its existence. Hopefully.

May God grant you Wisdom, Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Inara Subaka

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 03:48:00 +0000

Originally by: A Soporific
Pilot Subaka, are your assets located within the State?

I have stated this many times, my estate is well within Federation territory. The Sing Laison region, within the system of Rancer, both planetary and orbiting. I haven't been in the State in quite some time, CONCORD's decision to flag me as KOS makes travel less pleasant than ever before.

*a coy, almost daring grin crosses her face*

Why do you ask? Do you have issues with my business practices? If so, I welcome you to come and negotiate with myself or one of my associates at one of the entrances to my home system.

*Barely containing her laughter at the thought of the greeting her associates will provide Pilot A Sporific she focus' on Lord Daerth's words*

I always knew you had a rebel streak in you, maybe there's hope for you yet. But don't they have "Paladins" that are Pilots? Surely the Empire has some way to view these conversations; Hell, some of my slave engineers have devised a way to view (though not respond) these communiques. Apparently there was a pool going the other day whether I was going to actively go "hunting" for someone who mentioned me in a less than polite manner.

As for being contrary, why do you think a business woman like myself lives in the backwater of Federation space? Business is quite good here, far superior to living under State regulations, and close enough to the Metropolis region to pick up more slaves should the need arise.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 03:29:00 +0000

My gracious me, Miss Subaka. To insinuate that a Holder of my stature would actually read Apocryphal texts? Why... thats about as unheard of as a Royal Heir sleeping with a Matari slave-girl and soiling his blood with her flesh. Or perhaps as unheard of as another Royal Heir that abuses the trust God placed in his hands, the trust and loyalty of his people. And that neeeever happens does it?

My apologies, my sense of humor usually is rather inappropriate. Frankly, the Empire is a very private place. Most of what happens in a persons "private life" is exactly that, private. And most of us go to great lengths to keep it that way. Prying into others lives is dangerous in the Empire, and those who make accusations that cannot be proven (or who cannot get enough evidence to prove it) usually end up being punished instead. This makes others rather... careful... of making specious accusations.

So, I read what I want to read, and so long as I am discreet, no-one cares, and possibly the ones that do care, well, they cant prove it. My House is not great by any means, but it does have some small influence, and so long as I am careful and am not blatant about it, the authorities are content to look the other way. For now. Who knows as to the future, but then again, that goes for everyone and everything.

On a personal note, I am most interested in holy books of all kinds, religion being a hobby of mine. Well, religion, ethics, culture, morality, and related subjects. I find myself to be quite fascinated by it all. You would be surprised as to what my library contains. So would the Paladins of the Ministry of Internal Order, though I admit for different reasons.

But thats a different subject. Miss Subaka, I am not a pirate or outlaw or rebel of any kind, but I never professed to be a mindless fanatic or one to devoutly spout scripture or morality without understanding what I believe. To understand oneself and God, one must have all the information and knowledge one can attain. The ancient texts provide some of that information.

Besides, I have always been a bit contrary. When told I cant do something or go somewhere, I always wondered "why not?" and did my level best to discover why. This has resulted in loss and trouble quite often, but I think myself the wiser for those discoveries. Being told I cant read a book makes me wonder whats in the book that "they" dont want me to see or find out. Good thing "they" cant see this, something for which I am greatly pleased. I'd be branded a heretic for even speaking to you like this, much less the content of the conversation.

Remember Pilots, what you see is not always what you get. May God grant you Wisdom.

Industral Slavery - by A Soporific

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 03:03:00 +0000

I must restate, the State cannot adopt a chattel slavery system because it depends upon its workers as consumers. To remove that market by replacing employees with slaves or to even add significant competiton would force the State to fundimentally alter the way it does business. The Patriots in particular would find such changes wholly unacceptable.

Even on the small scale there are serious considerations that need to be taken into consideration. Particularly the opportunity cost of what services they COULD provide for the glory of the state if they were given other opporunities. The very things that make slaves valuable to the state as slaves make them even more valuable to the state in other ways. All in all, they serve less as slaves, which makes slavery hard to justify in most cases. Had our ancestors resorted to such things than we would have perished long before the sky rose.

Pilot Subaka, are your assets located within the State?

Industral Slavery - by Inara Subaka

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 01:57:00 +0000

*Inara appears deep in a thought as she opens the channel*

I had forgotten about the Empire's desire to use slavery as a means of "enlightenment"... and while I find the notion odd to say the least, I understand their thought process. If I was a superstitious woman, who believed that I was given a mandate to bring a faith to a demographic of "heathens" (not that Matari are heathens) I would most likely have taken a similar route. Oddly, I had to arrange for recordings of sermons to be distributed because the Matari, Amarr, and even a few from other bloodlines, that serve under me are devout in their beliefs.

*Inara's eye's darken as she addresses Pilot Cetes*

May you come to a wet grave and live long afterwards. Mass murder provides you no profit, monsters like you belong in a cage.

*Taking a breath, she turns her attention to A Sporific*

Originally by: A Sporific
The question was, "is industrial slavery an effective system to be adopted?" The answer is no for the major Empires. None have a system where such a change would be beneficial over the long run.

I both agree and disagree with these words. He is quite right, it would be non-effective for any of the other nations to attempt industrial slavery on a large scale, at least in a broad sweeping move. The Empire itself already has the infrastructure to transition into a full Industrial Slavery state of being, but from what I understand, they have no desire to do such a thing. The other nations could, effectively, put a system of slavery into place, but it would take centuries for things to even start moving. The initial reactions, the changes in the already present systems would be too great to attempt overnight. The State, being the closest aside from the Empire, to being able to support an Industrial Slave system, would still take a few decades at least.

We agree that none of the Nations could or would be overly benefited for moving to a pure industrial slave system. However, on a small scale, corporations at a time, it could effectively be implemented. Look at my own properties for proof of such a thing.

*Inara raises an eyebrow in the general direction of Lord Daerth*

Some light reading? I thought such things were frowned upon of citizens, especially a Holder of your esteem, within the Empire?

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Tue, 30 Sep 2009 00:49:00 +0000

Hmm.. you pose an interesting question Pilot Beletre.

Firstly, you are indeed correct about the process of slavery being a path of sorts to redemption, specifically, it is the primary purpose of the Reclaiming, in fact, it IS the Reclaiming, in a nutshell.

The idea was that if you take a culture or people, and enslave most of it, and keep it that way for generation after generation, then the subsequent offspring will become ever more assimilated into your own. After several hundred years or more, there would be only superficial differences in the beliefs of the "assimilator" and the "assimilatee" so to speak.

And it works. Look at the Ni-Kuuni for example. They arent slaves, most of them, and there are few if any differences in their cultural beliefs. Yes, they do have their differences, but they are minute, to say the least. And the Ni-Kuuni are but one of several races that have come to be what is known today as "The Empire".

Regardless, it is a a long process, and the end result is integration into Imperial society and the admission of the former slaves into the common "castes" of the Empire. They become Imperial subjects, with all the rights and responsibilities thereof.

My issue is that more and more frequently, there seems to be a trend among the Holders and/or Masters that the slaves are to be used in a manner unrelated to their souls salvation. This practice stems from the belief that the Path to God is only walked through suffering and hardship.

Many scriptural annotations mention that in order to truly know oneself and God, one must give up all physical bonds and to know true humility before Him, one must be humbled in life and know ones place. There is more, and it is far more complex, but I will try to keep it as simple as possible.

Suffice it to say, that the current interpretation of scriptural dogma says that slavery is one of the paths to knowing true humility and knowing ones place. True humility and knowledge of ones place in God's Work is essential to understanding Him better. To understand Him as best we can is our duty as His children. Thats very very simplified, mind you.

I myself think that God is open to us all, and that He did not intend for us all to suffer just to know Him. He does expect devotion to His Word, and does expect us to act in accordance with His Will, but in the end, we are all His children, even the wayward ones, and He does love you. The Path to Salvation, I believe, is long, and the ways are myriad, but then again, I dont espouse this openly in the Empire, since I like my head and breathing.

I hope this shed some light on your question, Pilot Beletre. Usually I would leave you with a blessing, but today I will give you something else. I give you this. Mind you, is not acceptable scripture, hence the classification as Apocryphal text.

My word lies within all
All it requires is the breath of faith
To ignite the fire
So the lost can find their way
So the fallen can rise
To take their place as my chosen
For you are all my creation
And are all equal in my kingdom

- Apocryphon, Lost Passages.

Industral Slavery - by Beletre

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 23:32:00 +0000

As to Pilots Daerth and Wildfire, I would like to thank you both. Not only are your points of view constructive to this discussion as a whole, they are well said and presented. Thank you.

Holder Daerth, allow me first to state that there are few Holder whom I respect, but after your earlier statements, you are among them. I do continue to disagree with your viewpoint, but I respect your reasons and methods in doing so.

However, allow me to shift the question slightly. Let us assume for the moment that practical slavery and low income employment are functionally the same. beyond that, it is my understanding that Amarrian slavery is a process of refinement, helping to turn the Unsaved into the Saved. But is the actual enslavement required? Can a person journey from Unsaved to Saved without being a slave between? Let us assume for the moment that the process is otherwise identical, with equal levels of obedience, and loyality. With all else being equal, is there justification for continued slavery?

Let us now take the question to a slightly more practical level. It most likely safe to assume that if a group is made of employees, rather then slaves, they are less likely to attend social, ie religious, functions, and thus less likely to retain anything of the Faith. However, I submit they are also less likely to rebel to whatever parts of faith they do learn. More likely to accept a religion offered to them, rather then forced upon them. They are less likely to form rebelion and disrupt religious practices. In short, more people are likely to convert from a group of employees then from a group of slaves.

As such, is it not better, from both a view of economics and faith, to free all slaves, and retain them as employees an an effectively identical level?

I understand that the vast majority of slave owners are not monsters, that the atrocities mentioned earlier are not the norm. But if even one instance of such atrocities are allowed in a given system, that system must be changed.

Industral Slavery - by A Soporific

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 23:22:00 +0000

I think that we're drifting off topic here. The Amarrian system was not one designed as a market. The Amarr use slavery as a means to spread their faith and culture. The industrial aspect is relatively new and a perversion of their systems. Ultimately, it's a self-destructive outgrowth of a preexisting system predisposed to the use of forced manual labor over other solutions. No one here is arguing in favor of it, merely against it in different ways.

The fact of the matter is that the Amarr have proven that slavery is an effective means to their ends. They managed to successfully integrate several other bloodlines before the Matari using slavery. The real question here is why did the traditional paths out of slavery close. How did the Amarrian tradition of slavery change to make it less suited to their purposes?

The question was, "is industrial slavery an effective system to be adopted?" The answer is no for the major Empires. None have a system where such a change would be beneficial over the long run. Is it possible for such to be the case? Probably, but the truly massive opportunity costs cripple the proposed system.

Industrial slavery would work, but only in a culture, society, and economic system that work well with the system. This is going backwards, so it doesn't seem to make much sense. Industrial slavery can only work where the resources are beneficial to it. This means there are far too many people, far too few machines, and a lot of simple work that needs to be done. Industrial slavery can only work with a very specific definition of slavery. This means when the definition of what makes someone a slave excludes people who can provide more to the society through other means, provides either an extensive screening process or an opportunity and means to rise out of slavery for those who exhibit needed traits, and the internal organization of the slaves themselves forms a community and support structure. Industrial slavery can only work when the culture that supports it desires it. Needless to say, these circumstances simply do not exist. Therefore chattel slavery is not a valid system, but it does bear noting that this does not necessarily mean that all slavery is wrong.

Industral Slavery - by Beletre

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 23:14:00 +0000

Edited by: Beletre on 29/09/2008 23:14:40
For a greater profit margin, sell the slaves, rather then kill them. Not only do direct profits rise, but you're more likely to find a market for your product if you aren't known as a Butcher.

Industral Slavery - by Vlad Cetes

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 19:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Even if you approach slavery with the attitude that it's all about profit, then it still makes sense to care for one's slaves as it's more efficient to feed your current ones than to go out and buy new stock.

Additionally, a happy slave is a productive slave!

Of course, for most holders, slavery isn's simply about profit but also about enlightening the souls of those touched by it.

If one is motivated by profit, the following steps will increase total profit.

1. Exterminate the slaves
2. Purchase high-quality industrial robots
3. See a decrease in marginal and average costs
4. Allow for more flexible pricing to suit market elasticity.
5. Increase total profits

Industral Slavery - by Rodj Blake

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 14:16:00 +0000

Even if you approach slavery with the attitude that it's all about profit, then it still makes sense to care for one's slaves as it's more efficient to feed your current ones than to go out and buy new stock.

Additionally, a happy slave is a productive slave!

Of course, for most holders, slavery isn's simply about profit but also about enlightening the souls of those touched by it.

Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 14:08:00 +0000

I agree, Pilot Wildfire. Slavery has indeed become mostly about profit and efficiency. But it is supposed to be about virtue and sin.

The entire point of the reclaiming is to redeem the souls of the heathens, and to bring them into the Light of God. But I feel that that has been lost, to a degree, by some today.

They also are not just numbers, they are souls. Souls in dire need of enlightenment and salvation. I keep slaves not to labor in factories and farms, though they do that, mostly to pay for their own upkeep, but to see them brought into the graces of Almighty God.

Most conscionable slave owners in the Empire also look at it like this, I would dare to say. The labor is important... but not as important as the goal, which is eternal salvation.

May the Light of God grant you peace, Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Alica Wildfire

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 10:51:00 +0000

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 29/09/2008 10:54:50
Alica has stopped reading and is bowing under the desk, a coughing and choking noise can be heared. After a while she drops from her chair, only her fingers can be seen, clenching with white knuckles to the desk. After a while she presses a button and the screen vanishes in noise.
--
FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS

Industral Slavery - by Alica Wildfire

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 10:49:00 +0000

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 29/09/2008 10:52:25
Alica sighs as the screen comes with noisy background to light.

Slavery is not about personal virtues or sins, so it is not important if you, Inara Subaka or you Veron Daerth are good masters and if you take good care of your property. The main thing is, that humans are reduced to numbers and those numbers I like you to present.
She holds up a datasheet.

This was falling accidential in my hands on a border patrol when I intercepted a slavetrader that was on his way from one of the newly Amarr conquered Tararan system. I can't present you the captain of that ship cause I we had a regrettable malfunction of an airlock, so... I tried to sell these sheets first, but nobody in Mitar seems interested in those so I found them today in a backpart of my storage and curiously I began to open the cases to take a look at them.

It's just quite boring stuff about production efficiency of a certain Amarr industry complex in the mainland. After some time, I found out what they were talking about, cause they always referred to "units". They were speaking about slaves. Listen:

[i]+Growing units will consume certain ressources, while the first five years the units are not able to do productive work at our facilities. After that the productive ability of a unit increases, but also the need of nutrition increases. Beyond the twentythird to twentyfifth year the productive output of a unit decreases while the need of nutrition stays on the same level.

I present you this chart where you can see the production ability diveded through nutrition and maintenance costs per unit and you see the optimal curve is from fifteen to seventeen years. While you have to calculate in the five years of unproductive upgrow and the loss of productive time by the motherunit you can see that it is not advisable to have a stock of an average age of over sixteen years.

To increase the efficiency of your production try to reprocess the units above the optimal age for they are not wasted but can be recycled for nutrition of the rest of the stock. The chart shows you the time of reprocess should be not over twentyfive years of age.

Every female unit that is selected for reproduction needs a specific diet so she reaches as fast as possible the critical weight of 45 kilogram. Below this a fail of reproduction is over fiftyseven percent. This can be achieved with earliest ten but average thirteen years of age. I do advice not no fertilize the motherunit with more than two spawnunits in the first year cause the chance of losing the reproductive property increases dramatically. After the first year the spawnunits can be increased up to five, at six the spawned subunits will have most likely nutrion failures and defects.

While you always should have a look on the genetically healthy stock of your units for reprocessing, the rest can be used up in the production process. Please don't use up more units while production of a certain item than the profit margin of it allows, else you will suffer losses of income.

While some advice a maximum racial mix of units, I propose the breed of specialized units. For the B-units are best for hard labour, the S-units are good in dexterious challenging operations, as well as in a more unspecialized operations and have the advantage to need just halve the nutrition of the B-units. The V-units are not very efficient for normal workingprocess.

I assume not to mix the B/S units in your stock cause it most often leads to disturbances during production. I also propose not to let happen unseduled reproduction processes for you will get a less efficient stock by this "natural" breed.

While all this conclusions can be found in numbers you can also find my personal attachment that adding new units to your stock from market below a certain price is a most effective measure to get a higher production to price ef
--
FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS

Industral Slavery - by Inara Subaka

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 05:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
...do we hold a single, or even small percentage of the Ammarrian slave holding population as the measure by which to judge the fairness and rightness of the act of holding slaves...

*Inara pauses the recording and starts it anew*

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
...do we hold a single, or even small percentage of the Ammarrian slave holding population as the measure by which to judge the fairness and rightness of the act of holding slaves...

You do understand the irony of your words Pilot Grunthor? Don't you? I agree with every word here.

The small percentage of Holders within the Empire are the ones Pilot Wildfire spoke of, those monsters that take on the visage of a man are the minority. Allow me to put this in terms of media and profit, two things I understand better than your visions fo freedom and liberty; if you want to hold attention, if you want ratings on a news feed, if you want to outsell your opponents subscription, you don't tell the stories of the kindly Holders such as Lord Daerth, you don't tell of the educational systems that are vital to slave communities such as mine... No, you tell of the horrible atrocities, those few instances that shed such a blindingly horrid light that it is difficult to see the truth behind it. And over time, people start to accept that because this is what is common on the feeds, what is virulent on GalNet, that it must be the truth.

Sheep, blindly being led to this slaughter, this fallacy of a war, put into motion by CONCORD.

*Inara scans the other transcripts before opening her eyes wider as if remembering something*

Oh, I almost forgot to address Pilot Pitoojee.

Allow me to assure you that slaves are much more efficient than machines, much more efficient than hired labor (skilled or unskilled), and when treated properly are loyal to their tasks. When they know that proper performances results in them being allowed a house, medical care that is second to few, food for them and their families, and the assurance that if they ever do fall ill or are injured they won't be kicked out the door like many laborers within the State are... I wouldn't trade it for any other system.

Let me leave you with Pilot Grunthor's words again...

Originally by: Sky Grunthor
...do we hold a single, or even small percentage of the Ammarrian slave holding population as the measure by which to judge the fairness and rightness of the act of holding slaves...

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 02:54:00 +0000

I hear your words, Pilots, I do indeed. Pilot Wildfire, I have heard your words, and they have touched me. I fear that you, perhaps, have a quite intimate understanding of how the system of enslavement in the Empire is so very flawed. I think that you, yourself, have been there when the overseers come to cull the pretty ones, or to choose the breeders.

I cannot blame you, child, for what you have seen and felt. I cannot make it better, nor even make it right. Not for you, not for those you knew, not for those you left behind. I do the best I can for who I can, and frankly, its often like bailing out the ocean with a spoon. Far too little, and not nearly enough.

If it matters at all, you have my sympathies for your ordeal. But consider this. You, here, today, are stronger for that ordeal. You have a far better understanding of yourself and what truly matters to you. Perhaps God has set you a far harder Test than many, but you are the better for it, are you not?

The truth is, that many suffer, everywhere. Many of them suffer and fall, and give up and die. You did not. Regardless of where you go from here, you alone have the knowledge that you have achieved much. You have LEARNED much. That is never to be belittled, never to be denigrated. For what its worth, I wish you well in your journey.

Pilot Grunthor, I hear your words, I do indeed. And you are correct. However many Holders and Masters I can sway to my position, however many I can change or convince, it will not be enough. Not today, not tomorrow. I am not Amarr. I am not the Empire.

But my children will be. Those of whom I can change or sway, their children will also. Where I alone cannot make any appreciable change, perhaps together, they can. Perhaps, if given time to work, and time to think, others will give thought to my words. Yes, they will be few, at least in the beginning, and they will be small, and unimportant, at least to start. But they will be there.

I remember a quote that fits this most aptly, though I remember not where I heard it. "Never let anyone tell you that a small, determined group of people cannot make a great change in society or history, truly, they are the only ones that ever do." Never forget that, Pilot Grunthor, for it is a truth you can take to your grave.

I hear you Pilots, I do. And you should hear me as well. For each Holder and Master that knows of the path of God and treats his slaves accordingly, and teaches them well of Him and His Works, there is a thousand and more that do not. A thousand and more that use them for pleasure and profit and abuse.

Yet I ask you to not despair. Do not give up hope. Remember, "Even the smallest light shines brightly in the deepest Darkness." Your hopes and efforts are those small lights. And someday, if we are careful, and thoughtful, and patient, they will combine to become something greater, something magnificent.

A blaze of everlasting glory fit to burn away the darkness that clings to our Empire like a death shroud. A burning beacon of hope and a shining symbol of God's Justice and Power. Perhaps, on that day, we will see the Empire become what it was always meant to be. Perhaps, on that day, we can begin to truly bring the message of God to the universe. Perhaps, on that day... we will prove ourselves worthy of His Love.

May the Light of God guide and bless you all, Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Sky Grunthor

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 01:41:00 +0000

While Veron's actions are as purported honorable and right for the most part, in and of themselves, do we hold a single, or even small percentage of the Ammarrian slave holding population as the measure by which to judge the fairness and rightness of the act of holding slaves.

Veron's slaves environment is not the normal for the billions of slaves that exist in the Amarr empire. His slaves are not a measure by which we can truly judge slavery. So Veron as much as I respect you, being Amarr and all even, your arguments hold little to no weight to the reality of the state of slavery in the Amarr empire.

Here is the simple truth, leaving out my belief that freedom is an inalienable right.

A system that supports the wholesale cruelty of peoples without the ability of those peoples to remove themselves from those situation voluntarily is a system that deserves no support. It is evil and deserves, nay demands to be overthrown. Veron you are regretfully not the Amarr empire. If you where, I doubt we would be where we where today. I doubt there would have been a Matari rebellion. I doubt there would be a Matari rebulic.

But alas there is one and alas you are not representative the the majority of the Amarrian nation.

-------------------------------------------------
Search: Sky Grunthor

Industral Slavery - by Esna Pitoojee

Mon, 29 Sep 2009 00:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Garion Avarr
Wildfire, I am truly sorry that you have had such experiences with slavery, but you must realize, that it is not all like that. Certainly there is some that is, and this is lamentable, yes. But do not think just because you have had that experience, that all or even most slavery is like that.

Fortunately, what you say is true... equally unfortunately, however is that Pilot Wildfire's description is of an experience all too common in the Empire; it is that kind of situation that we are here to discuss, and I don't think it would be ostentatious for me to say that we have all come to an agreement here that such treatment is horrific and despicable beyond belief, and that those who treat thier slaves in such ways surely deserve to have justice meted out to them.
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Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.

My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp.

Industral Slavery - by Garion Avarr

Sun, 28 Sep 2009 23:20:00 +0000

Wildfire, I am truly sorry that you have had such experiences with slavery, but you must realize, that it is not all like that. Certainly there is some that is, and this is lamentable, yes. But do not think just because you have had that experience, that all or even most slavery is like that.
________________________________
This is not a signature.

Industral Slavery - by Alica Wildfire

Sun, 28 Sep 2009 21:37:00 +0000

Alica is looking sad into the cam.

I know some estimate that I'll rant about this, but I ain't no Amarr priest. I don't have to tell you anything about how wonderful the world could be, only thing I have to do, is the wash away the dirt of lies that covers the true hard life of slavery. And I really am sick of this selfrightful propaganda of the rich and the free about how good it is to be a slave and have a master.

Slaves live in minimal housing. At night or in the early morning hours the catcher go from house to house to select the breeder. Those girls and young women that can be used for reproduction. Starting with thirteen or fourteen. They are impragnated with up to three or four child, some go up to eight, while this would certainly destroy the ability of reproduction or living of many young women. I don't tell ya the details of how the process is done. You would have trouble to keep your breakfast, fine gents.

She pauses silently.

Outside the farms wild beasts prevent the slaves to escape, the slaver hounds would rip apart everyone that tries. But many do. So the fields next to the barracks are soaked with blood and the best grain will grow on this earth.

Masters once or twice a year celebrate hunting seasons where slaves are picked out that are not productive enough or are unease or troublemakers as prey.

The barracks are often enough so small that no more than halve a meter is reseved for sleeping. Those who die are fed to the hounds or taken and used as fertilizer for the fields.

Good looking girls, Sebiestor are most often taken for this, are working at pleasure hubs for extra income for the master or even work exclusively. So whole villages with the breed of one master exist. It is called the villages of the "acending blood".

Who is not bowing his head to the Amarr death-god is put under the sword or is shockwipped until he is a nervous wreck that begins to vomit on every touch even years after the event. And what Vitoc does to people...

I could tell ya more of this fine life of a slave. Much more, fine gentleman. And while you sit in your comfort chairs, smoke cigars and lament about how practical slavery is and how good your are as a master and what a bliss it is not to have a choice and beeing used by your like for whatever you want...

While this happens, we feed silently our belts with endless streams of ammo. And we will see, how it ends. I don't have any time to talk about this, my fine gentleman, I got some work to do, so... have a cigar, make you comfortable... please.

She smiles. Really nice. But her eyetooth blink a bit predatorily, as she turns off the transmission.
--
FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS

Industral Slavery - by Esna Pitoojee

Sun, 28 Sep 2009 19:55:00 +0000

This 'industrial slavery' (a very excellent name for the practice, as it is) is not only despicable, but highly inneficient.

While it is true that when working at maximum efficiency humans can outdo machines in some tasks, there is absoloutly no reason for such slaves to work as hard as they can - indeed, I would suspect that their hatred for their captors would make them deliberately drag their feet, not do work especially quickly, and cause 'accidents' that prevent work from being done. And I have to say, I can't exactly blame them.
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Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.

My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp.

Industral Slavery - by Bruja Ry

Sat, 27 Sep 2009 13:39:00 +0000

Mr. Veron Daerth,

I must say that your take on the concept of labor is quite refreshing. At least to me, you seemed to have broken it down in a way that I haven't seen yet. I admit that I agree with a lot of what you said, about how just having a normal job, and growing up in society is a form of brainwashing.

Thank you for putting it to words and sharing it with the universe.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=807663&page=1

Industral Slavery - by Daitetsu Minase

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 21:05:00 +0000

Urgh. I ain't as a rule political, but dese fancy-pants justimications for holdin people in chains or puttin various kinds a controls on 'dem ain't nothin but sugar over dung.

Least from where I sees it as a pod-pilot.

O course, I also think people is always slaves, it's just we choose our masters. I chose money.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 20:41:00 +0000

You see, you would ask them not to leave some work camp, or some evil place of labor and hardship, but you ask them to leave their homes and all they have ever known. You ask them to give up their loved ones and to step into uncertainty and possible death for not only themselves but their mates and offspring. You ask them to go to a place where few speak their language, few have the same customs, few if any know them, and where they know little if anything of the local customs. Have you any idea how hard that is?

Myself, I understand completely. I understand why they stay, and I keep things quiet and peaceful and productive and I treat them well. I give them all they need to prosper and make themselves and their children better and to better themselves. I give them local autonomy, I give them their homes and villages and I give them overseers from among themselves. I do not judge them harshly, and yes, I have the local Amarrians treat my slaves as they should be treated. As valuable people that serve me and my House.

In return, I receive their loyalty, and their service and their duty. It is not some dire thing, this enslavement, that you think it is. Yes, there are laws, and there are rules and there is punishment for breaking them, but what society doesnt? So long as you labor well, and do well, you will be treated well. It is simple. Why would they give that up? I wouldnt.

May the Light of God grant you peace, Pilots.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 20:34:00 +0000

Actually, Pilot Poreuomai, I dont have to prevent them from going anywhere.

Lets look at it logically. The vast majority of the slaves of my House, some 1.3 million total at last estimate, were born there. They have no tribe or family or clan or nation other than what they were born into. They arent Matari, or Ni-Kuuni, or Gallente, or Deiti, or any specific race, they are a hodgepodge of crossbreeds. They have the blood of many races flowing through them, even Amarrian. They have no other relations or friends or anyone at all that would know them, other then those they were born among and grew up with.

They are spread across the holdings of my House, the villages, the farms, the factories and the habitats and mines. They are given housing, clothing, food, education, religion, care and comfort, all by my hand. If you had read the description of my Houses idea of proper care, you would know that they are far better off than the out of work homeless of the former Republic, or even the migrant workers of the Federation.

They have their families, and their friends and their homes. Yes, they labor when told to, they go where they are told to, and do as they have been instructed, but they also receive much in exchange.

So, I ask you, where would they go? What would they do? How would they get there? As it is, they know that if they stay where they are, and do as they have always done, they will be cared for. They will not go hungry, or be left in the cold harshness of the elements to suffer. They will never be destitute, or without purpose. Their children will be educated, taught a good trade, and will be cared for the same as they are. They have safety, security, and yes, they have their Lord to thank for it.

Many would claim that this is a form of brainwashing, and you know, I suppose it is. I suppose that each day, trillions upon trillions of men and women receive this same brainwashing from their own governments and nations.

They rise, and work and raise their young to do so as well. Its all the same, really. Gallenteans may not have outright masters or lords, but if you anger your boss, and lose your job, I dont care who you are, you dont get food or housing or power or water or whatnot until you can pay for them again. That requires another job.

The burger flippers in the fast food places, the laundresses in the hotels, the migrants that pick the crops too tender to be harvested by machine, they have all the same choices that the slave does... work... or starve. They take their meager pay and spend it on the necessities and have little left over. Their children will not have the opportunity to better themselves to any great degree because they will also have the same choices. When you have little income in a household, your children arent just children, they are potential sources of income, and working in the mechanics shop or the food place next door is money on the table, and in the cook-pot and might mean the difference between new clothes and nothing. Little time for school there.

Few like to think about it, but at least I make no quibbles about what those who labor for me are. And I compensate them well. They pay nothing, and get quite a bit. All it takes is an oath and their loyalty.

In return, they get jobs, and education, and homes, and clothing, and they get to live their lives. Is it perfect? No, it isnt. Is it right? Perhaps... to some. Can they leave? If they wish, and if they have completed their terms of service to my House (35years for those that didnt read it), they may go anywhere they want to. But how will they get there, who will take them? What happens to their fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, friends, and co-workers? Who will care for their parents when they get old? Who will care for their children?

Industral Slavery - by Poreuomai

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 13:39:00 +0000

Edited by: Poreuomai on 26/09/2008 13:44:28

Veron Daerth, if your slaves are so happy, why do you have to prevent them from leaving?

Originally by: Beletre
It is my opinion that such industral slavery is less cost effective then hireing regular workers, paying a fare wage, maintaining good working conditions, and offering compensation for a job well done.

It would be a step in the right direction if the above could be achieved for ordinary workers throughout the star systems. Including the right, at any time, to freely choose alternative employment.

Industral Slavery - by Veron Daerth

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 00:37:00 +0000

It seems to me that I have seen this discussion before. Yes, thats it. If I am not mistaken this has been discussed here and here.

Now, I freely admit that some may view my own ways of treating my slaves to be heretical, but it does work. You have to realize that most slaves in the Empire have been slaves all their lives, and that their ancestors for many many many generations have also been so. Most of them have no specific culture of their own, only what we give them.

Give them lives, families, towns, roots, give them meaningful work, and teach them well. Do not burden them unnecessarily, and be not capricious with punishment or favoritism. Be a just and fair lord and master and they will return your favor. Yes, you WILL have the occasional troublemaker, but so long as you treat your slaves well, do well by them, and see to their care and needs, they will not simply obey you, but will serve you. There is a difference.

My slaves have been a part of my House for many generations. Many of them were inherited from my father, and his father before him. They have their own homes, their own villages, their own history and roots, and all of it is part of the history and roots of my House. They serve their House, and it is their House, inasmuch as it is mine. Many of them have bled for my House, many have died for it. Most have been born into it, and all of them will die in service to it, either directly or indirectly.

They are not simply slaves, they are part of us, our Houses. They are the wayward ones that it is our duty to guide and aid and to bring out of Darkness. They are the ones we teach the meaning of loyalty and service and duty to. They are the ones that build and labor and sweat for us, and in turn, we are the ones that provide for them.

Many think slavery is but a stream that flows in a single direction. The slave labors for his master and the master does little in return. I cannot deny that this does occur. But when you give your slaves care and concern commensurate with their efforts, they will strive to be better, to better themselves, and in turn, to better you. We, each of us, has our part to play, our duties to fulfill, our responsibilities to carry out.

Being the master is not all fun and games. It is the hardest part of the entire relationship, for the very lives and souls of those that look to you for guidance lies in the palm of your hand. One mistake, one misstep, will result in destruction for all of you. Perhaps the results of that mistake is that only the slaves die, but their souls miss the chance for salvation and that fault lies in your hands alone.

Also, be wary of your overseers, and choose them well, for you will often never see each slave daily, but your overseers will, and their conduct and actions reflect upon you, since they represent your will. Harsh or unjust overseers will often incite rebellion and revolt far more easily than you as Holder or master will. Lazy or foolish overseers will lose the respect of the slaves and will allow them to slack off and fall behind on their work.

You must strive for the balance. To be fair and balanced and just. To be strict when needed, distant and sometimes cold when you have to be, and yet show concern and care for those that serve you. It is not easy.

Regardless, I do agree that slavery for simple profit is.. well, heresy. Admittedly, those not of the Empire can and do disagree, but then again, God gave us all free will, so you're entitled to your opinion.

May the Light of God guide and comfort you all.

Industral Slavery - by A Soporific

Fri, 26 Sep 2009 00:29:00 +0000

Edited by: A Soporific on 26/09/2008 00:30:21
Such studies have already been conducted by the Caldari Business Tribunal for State-wide applications. As a result, slavery is illegal in the state. The application of industrial slavery has been examined and proven to be inefficient to the point of being immoral in the State's current situation. The argument that industrial (or Chattel) slavery is cost effective conveniently ignores a number of very fundamental costs.

The single most important hidden cost of slavery that makes the process singularly unsuited to promoting the Glory of the State is the opportunity costs inherent in denying the less tangible means that individuals contribute to the State.

The second most important loss that such a system would cause is the loss of the market for finished goods that those paid laborers can provide, unlike the Empire the State simply does not have the vast numbers of people required to consume the goods provided by our highly efficient industrial systems.

A third major risk revealed in the State's studies of the chattel slavery system is the significant decrease in capital investment and increase in internal unrest it entails, ultimately reducing the State's ability to replace sudden losses to either disaster or attack. True employees are unlikely to revolt or fail to produce in times of uncertainty. Additionally, the reduction in specialized industrial equipment that can only be employed by trustworthy individuals for obvious reasons would reduce the total amount of overall work that can be done.

Finally, the costs to the State itself are almost identical between unspecialized employees and slaves. The savings from reduced safety equipment are equalized by increase in security equipment. The increased hours neutralized by the decreased utility. Even the often touted lack of wages simply does not make up for the lost revenue from the replaced employees and the extensive costs of maintaining even basic living conditions for the slaves.

From a Caldari standpoint, it is simply not a feasible alternative. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option for anyone, just not one that the the Caldari are ready, willing, or able to pursue at this juncture.

Industral Slavery - by Arelius Sarum

Thu, 25 Sep 2009 23:40:00 +0000

Slowly replace slave labour with minimum wage labour. That way you can claim they are no longer slaves, avoid paying for their living expenses and most importantly still work them like mindless drones. Of course, that is from an purely economic point of view.

For most in Amarr, slavery is a religious process based on faith. We are not the Caldari State and cannot consider issues on a purely economic basis.
Per Ardua ad Astra - Through Adversity, to the Stars

Industral Slavery - by Inara Subaka

Thu, 25 Sep 2009 23:19:00 +0000

*Inara appears on the screen, slightly confused by what she is hearing*

Beletre, are you trying to suggest that slave labor equates to lower quality and efficiency? And if you are suggesting such a irrational thing, I must follow up with wondering when the last time you had a neural scan... I fear your last clone reactivation may have been less than perfect.

As a slave owner myself, and having seen the quality of work both within the State and that done within the Empire or by my own subjects I can readily say that the quality of work put forth by slaves is far superior to that of hired low-wage labor. Those slaves know that they have to live under their master, and answer for their mistakes should they make any. A hired laborer is simply fired and has the option of finding another job... slaves have the option of performing properly for their Master/Mistress or risk the punishments failure would entail. There are some Masters that will even sell them off if their work is unsatisfactory, possibly to one of the less than kind Holders.

Industrial slavery is quite efficient if the slaves are cared for properly, and I find no "moral or ethical grounds to oppose it." I invite you to bring your bleeding heart to the back country of your own Federation to see how very wrong you are. I'll be in Rancer for the most part, if I'm not wired into my pod doing business I'll be in the station or planetside. Ask for Mistress Subaka, they'll point you in the right direction.

Industral Slavery - by Garion Avarr

Thu, 25 Sep 2009 21:40:00 +0000

Indeed. When one uses slaves as unskilled labor, I believe it is general a short term economic benefit, compared to using paid unskilled labor, though this can vary. Aside from using paid laborers with minimal pay and in working conditions no better than slavery, using slaves instead of paid laborers is likely cost effective (though how cost effective is uncertain). When skilled labor is needed, then slaves must often have good working conditions to work effectively, and cost effectiveness is debatable.

Of course, for unskilled labor, automation is often more cost effective than paid labor -- and, likely, for slavery, though reliable studies on this subject are few. So while unskilled slave labor is generally more cost effective on a basic level than paid labor, simply using automation in many of the jobs would be more effective.

Of course, there are hidden costs involved with slavery, as well. The cost to buy the slaves, of course, must be recouped, and use of slave labor can cause certain markets to be less eager to buy one's goods, limiting profits. In addition, it causes a general PR problem, both for any corporations that use it, and for the empire that allows it. Certain theories suggest that it discourages innovation, or, if not discourages, at least does not encourage as much as other systems. Certainly staying with the use of slaves when others have moved onto automation is not conducive to progress.

For these reasons, then, as well as due to the diplomatic troubles it causes, and the general poor image it creates (likely causing many that might otherwise have willingly converted to never even give thought to the idea that the Amarr have something positive to offer), it would seem to greatly benefit the Empire to phase out industrial slavery, for while this institution has been helpful in the past, it now only holds us back from our destiny.
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Industral Slavery - by Grr

Thu, 25 Sep 2009 21:06:00 +0000

We'll not let anybody have access to conduct such a study on us. However I can tell you if properly cared for, given good living conditions and education slaves can do great things for industry.

At Epitoth Fleetyards, our slaves are happy, have themselves a job for life and we rarely hear any complaints. I am sure should living conditions be poor and we stopped giving them access what they need, religion and guidance production efficiency would greatly suffer.

Industral Slavery - by Beletre

Thu, 25 Sep 2009 20:37:00 +0000

It's well established that many Amarr keep slaves. Some are held in a sort of forced apprenticeship, or like a wayward adopted child. These are not the ones I speak of here. Instead I speak of those who treat slaves like organic parts for their factories, farms, and mines. Simple units to be used up and discarded without regard to their worth as human beings.

Now, on a basic level, such industral slavery is cost effective. No wages to be paid, long hours of forced labor, no expensive safety equipment... but, slaves tend to be slury and ineffective, sabataging their own work and lowering production. They must be guarded with expensive personel, and their basic needs met out of pocket. And the slaves themselves are fairly expensive to buy and replace.

It is my opinion that such industral slavery is less cost effective then hireing regular workers, paying a fare wage, maintaining good working conditions, and offering compensation for a job well done.

However, I am highly bias on this viewpoint. I imagine most any Federation member would also be bias. As would any Amarr or member of the Republic. But, perhaps a Caldari study could honestly access the relitive costs and profits of industral slavery. I for one would be most intrested in the results of such a study.

If industral slavery proves to be inefficent, so much the better for my point of view. If it proves to be cost effective, I've still plenty of room on moral and ethical grounds to oppose it.

In any case, if there is any group able to launch such a study, let us know, perhaps funding and resources can be provided to hasten the findings of such.