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Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by kieron

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:01:00 +0000

I am closing the thread to further discussion. It was my hope that the replies to the original statement would remain on topic, but due to the lack of clarity in that statement this was not the case.

To those that are saying, "CCP will sweep this under the rug and not offer further comment", you are incorrect. More information and answers will be posted before the start of the weekend.

In the interim, please do not open new threads about this topic. Members of the EVE community will have an opportunity to voice their opinions and comments shortly.

kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sadao

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:51:00 +0000

Originally by: j0sephine
Just loads and loads of stuff

Dear j0sephine,

I will always forgive you for the stuff you say, because you have the coolest sig on the whole of the eve-o forums. It is a sig of epic proportions.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:49:00 +0000

Originally by: Emily Spankratchet
Originally by: Borasao
At this point, with CCP's behaviour up until now, I don't think anyone would believe them, even if it were true.

Most of the people posting in this thread wouldn't believe anything CCP say, no matter what their behaviour is or was. My worry is that the fury and recrimination will have a bad effect on EvE, driving good players away. And then if this turns out to be completely in the minds of the tinfoil hat brigade, a great game will have been ruined by people who like playing at conspiracy theories. Which will be a Bad Thing.

We won't know this. Because they didn't say anything. What is bad for the community is lack of transparence in a payed game that demands a lot of dedication and therefore cannot be taken lightly when tampered.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Hectic
Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

Yeah, they cheated, serves them right too!

Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Hectic
Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

Yes. I for one do.

It is always sad to loose friends through both the actions, inactions and omissions from the few.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Hectic
Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

Is this a parody post? My sarcasm detector is broken.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ilidanis

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Hectic
Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

Your 'friends' are not gone. His/their character(s) were simply renamed to something inconspicuous, until things blow over, at which point I'm sure someday down the line, you'll get a shiny new corp application from a relatively 'unknown', low-profile character.

Look on the bright side: more T2 BPO donations!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Executor Shiro

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Hectic
Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

No more free Tech2 BPOs for you?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Milena Rage

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:43:00 +0000

Edited by: Milena Rage on 07/02/2007 22:42:25
tee hee

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hectic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:42:00 +0000

Some of my friends are gone. I hope at least some of you whiners realize what that means.

Sig removed. Please keep it under the 24,000 byte limit. -Conuion Meow (mods@ccpgames.com)
Listen to BoB Radio!!
WELCOME BACK MGRL

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Emily Spankratchet

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Borasao
At this point, with CCP's behaviour up until now, I don't think anyone would believe them, even if it were true.

Most of the people posting in this thread wouldn't believe anything CCP say, no matter what their behaviour is or was. My worry is that the fury and recrimination will have a bad effect on EvE, driving good players away. And then if this turns out to be completely in the minds of the tinfoil hat brigade, a great game will have been ruined by people who like playing at conspiracy theories. Which will be a Bad Thing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:41:00 +0000

Originally by: breadcat
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?comments=45646

more will follow

yep.. mmorpg.com
Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rodney Caston

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Malachon Draco
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

oh, I see what you did there ...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: Malachon Draco

Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers

.....

You really have to stop doing that Malachon, I need to keep breathing ...

:P

Stop following me!

I know you're nervous cause I am getting close to the number of alts you have, but thats no reason for stalking

I am scaling down ... and no, I am not nervous, and no I am not a Dev :P

None of me is an alt btw. We're all mains.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tanis Bastar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:37:00 +0000

How does deleting the dev characters help in the slightest?

In one of the posts by the dev player quoted in Mr. K's blog, the dev says that even though he's got to pull his character out of RKK, he'll still be on MSN, IRC and the Forums, and that he is "still RKK," just "a bit inactive atm".

CCP's response is a total joke--what rules do they have in place to ensure that favoritism doesn't continue with their new characters?

When this whole issue started I doubted that any actual impropriety had occurred, but CCP has thoroughly botched the announcement about the results of their investigation. They haven't bothered to deny key allegations, have given us platitudes and generalities, and try to make us feel guilty that devs had their characters deleted. BooHoo!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: Malachon Draco

Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers

.....

You really have to stop doing that Malachon, I need to keep breathing ...

:P

Stop following me!

I know you're nervous cause I am getting close to the number of alts you have, but thats no reason for stalking

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rodney Caston

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:34:00 +0000

Edited by: Rodney Caston on 07/02/2007 22:32:39

Originally by: BlackTalon
is it good idea to have dev playing at all they should just be testing stuff on the test server

With that statement alone, I can only assume you've never worked in a Dev/QA/Production environment.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Malachon Draco

Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers

.....

You really have to stop doing that Malachon, I need to keep breathing ...

:P

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:31:00 +0000

Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 22:28:32

Originally by: Galea Wildfang
- DB Preacher
There hasn't been any evidence of him buying a character for out of game currencies or any other violation of the EULA

- SirMolle
Has violated the EULA by posting RL Information about another gamer. He edited his post short after to remove said information. This will result in a temporary ban.
Any further posting of RL informations about another player will result in permanent bans, not only for SirMolle

- Kugu.....
Gets his accounts permanently banned for releasing RL informations of a CCP employee.

The only problem with making a list of people to ban is that the EULA is quite nebulous.

For example, the EULA is not a legal document, it is an EULA violation to "break laws," whatever that means.

As another example, if the allegations are true that t20 directly oversaw RKK's capital operations, he would be privy to intimate knowledge of massive account sharing.

Take a second and study the EULA. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find a way to get banned.

This makes it even more important that we be able to trust that CCP devs and GMs will adjucate the rules fairly. For example, when you petition you trust that the GMs that read your petition will decide your petition in a clear and consistent manner.

Kieron's lack of transparency makes me wonder if CCP's culture is changing for the worse.

-dbp

*edit*

Not enough carriage returns.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:28:00 +0000

Originally by: Cabadrin
Originally by: Prydeless
Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts...

Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet!

Lol, let's keep it at 23 :P With the amount of crap postings deleted it should be possible to keep it under control.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Cabadrin
Originally by: Prydeless
Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts...

Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet!

Yeah but this forum has probably seen a month's worth of traffic today.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kldraina

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:27:00 +0000

Edited by: Kldraina on 07/02/2007 22:24:15
I think it is sad how many seem to think the devs shouldn't be playing EVE. If they don't play the game, how can they know what in it is good, and what is bad? I know from experience, that the only way to understand EVE is to play it, and the devs must understand EVE in order to make informed, intelligent decisions about it's design.

P.S. I wonder how much of this public smearing of CCP is actually an attempt to coerce CCP into taking action against BoB. Conspiracies can go both ways ya'know.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by B4NK

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:26:00 +0000

The accounts havent been deleted and the characters STILL exist on TQ.

as to 5 char's being named if you look closely then its all 1 player.

regardless of the BPO issue its the second KNOWN problem with a Dev and for me personally im ashamed of the game.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:25:00 +0000

And the playing the victim, which is what BoB is doing here 'ooh, everybody hates us cause we're the best' is really transparent as well.

Almost everybody hated RA a while back, yet funnily enough noone ever accused them of being Developers, even though they got away with some illegal stuff according to some.

Why of all the accusations, does this one always come back to BoB and noone else? Never saw anyone accuse Burn Eden of being developers, did you? Universally hated, but no accusations of being developers. Only BoB...

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Galea Wildfang

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:22:00 +0000

What a riot.

I for myself don't want someone to be hung, cruzified or some such nonsense. I want a statement assuring, that there will be rules for how to conduct as a volunteer, GM or Dev when playing the game or when doing the stuff you ought to do, and them being enforced very strictly. Leaking informations out is for sure the fastest thing to break this game.

All I want is a real attempt to make this game level and fair to everyone. And by that I mean every CCP employee should play this game very closely by the rules. The moment you just enter a slightly gray area, you make yourself a target for the riot. No question, as a Dev a person has more knowledge of how things work, of changes to come, and can (if he choses so) get ready to it before anyone else can. For example the t2 lotto. Sure the worst idea CCP ever had, but we're living with that. I don't believe the BPO's in question were made out of thin air for a moment. But I do believe the person had alot of more knowledge about how things will work, how fast BPO's will be destributed, in which fields are less people researching than in other fields, etc. No clue if that went into any of his decisions made regarding research, but if you want to rebuild the trust in CCP, you need to be strict about that. By accepting the BPO's and hand them over to the Alliance you happen to belong to, you made yourself questionable as well as your loyality.

I expect a Dev to be beyond that. Play the game, make friends, make sure your cover doesn't get busted and don't hand over valuable assets or leak informations no one else should have, and I think no one would have real trouble with you playing your game.

As for Kieron's post. It would be nice to have every point taken and adressed them one by one, like the following (that's just an example of how it could be done in general, I do not try to make up any punishments)

- DB Preacher
There hasn't been any evidence of him buying a character for out of game currencies or any other violation of the EULA

- SirMolle
Has violated the EULA by posting RL Information about another gamer. He edited his post short after to remove said information. This will result in a temporary ban.
Any further posting of RL informations about another player will result in permanent bans, not only for SirMolle

- Kugu.....
Gets his accounts permanently banned for releasing RL informations of a CCP employee.

- RKK BPO's
Those that our Dev handed over to them will be deleted and relotto'ed. Same goes for any other T2 BPO that was aquired by a Dev or GM unless they got sold (for a reasonable amount) or auctioned. This is to ensure the same rules apply to everyone. We're aware that this will potentielly bust more GM's or Dev's but it can't be avoided if we try to be fair.

This is just how I would close this issue, but I'm no Dev, GM, not even a volunteer.

Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by BlackTalon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:22:00 +0000

is it good idea to have dev playing at all they should just be testing stuff on the test server

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cabadrin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Prydeless
Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts...

Certainly 23 pages is sweeping it under the carpet!
_______________________________________________

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Razor Jaxx

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
I bet investigation took 30 minutes, and it took 2 weeks to write this "report" on investigation. Good job on writing report that says nothing, and avoids answering any real questions.

I think all parties agree that the OP is lacking, in clarity and finality.

Blah, blah, blah.

Are you Kieron? If not... noone was asking you anything. Thanks.

If I were, you think I'd tell you? After all this? HA! Think again!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cupdeez

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:18:00 +0000

Edited by: Cupdeez on 07/02/2007 22:19:22
Edited by: Cupdeez on 07/02/2007 22:16:25
I see all these BOB players posting in this topic but for all the people that saw the chat logs. I think will be like hmm... BOB players lost any credibility

for the following reasons

1. 6 CCP employees were in RKK (prob going to rejoin in a week)
2. BOB prob has even more CCP employees in BOB
3. Internal investigation on your self GOOD JOB

The only people who got banned was the guy who posted BOB's killboard information (himself and a fellow employee). Good way to cover up the problem ban the person.

The CCP players have been removed...Right more like renamed and history erased. Account still active and going to rejoin another BOB corp in a few weeks YAY!!

Time to start looking for a new game that I can drop 4g's a year.

Thanks for DELETING MY 1st post..

Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ar'tee

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Aarin Wrath

This has made shacknews:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45646

and bluesnews:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215

I wouldn't be surprised if slashdot and digg pick it up soon.

Say what?

They already did!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:15:00 +0000

Im assuming that putting this in 'eve information portal' instead of the COAD forum (where the first thread was) was also an attempt to sweep this under the carpet i.e. Im betting if this moved to the COAD forums there would be twice the amount of posts...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Pravest Dall
If anybody should be banned - it's should be Goons and AAA for their shameless attempt to manipulate this non-event to try and weaken their enemies in the game.
It's ironic that the biggest asshats and exploiters in eve should be screaming the loudest and at the same time demonstrate that their reading comprehension is zero and their logic deduction non-existent.
To all the tin-foil hatters leaving - good riddance. To the devs, good luck in re-establishing your characters.

PS. Not a bob alt, bob pet alt, bob fanboy, ect ... but you ****heads won't believe that anyway.

I'm going to keep posting this until people read it and understand it.

I agree that many of the people who are squaking the loudest (Goonswarm, among others) might be construed to have a conflict of interest.

However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects.

If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am.

However, kieron has shown no interest in transparency. His statement is instead a declaration that CCP intends to sweep this episode under the rug.

This is why I feel this scandal has effects that transcend in-game political affiliation. The sociopolitical fabric of the game depends fundamentally on the concept that in-game assets are acquired fairly. (Think about what would happen to mineral markets if someone found a way to dupe Megacyte, or what would happen to T2 markets if someone found a way to run reactions in station rather than in a POS.)

The mere appearance of impropriety on t20's part is a direct attack on this fundamental assumption.

Mind you, this is the effect of the mere appearance of impropriety. If any actual improper actions took place as alleged the sociopolitical and economic consequences are profound.

This is why I'm squawking.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Susan Acid

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Abriana Overlord

Bottom line here is the "mob mentality" BoB makes an excellent target why would that be?

Because,in effect,you were the catalyst for all this when you decided to copy and paste ASCN forums and CCP allowed it.You sensationalised it and wallowed in the attention it brought you.Which is exactly what Kugu is doing to you.You showed him how much attention he could get and he sought his own means to gain infamy.I'm sorry but you really have brought this upon yourselfs and, although hacking is illegal, I have no sympathy.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Quote:

At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing.

It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context.

I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right.

quit the game then

Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own.

You aren't making right lol. You're joining the rest of the tinfoil bandwagon to try and come up with excuses to why you're organization is innept. So if you want to make right then just quit the game

In your distorted opinion it may be this way. If you look my post I never ever talked about BoB or any player. I couldn't care less about them. They are players. But I do care about Devs and GMs misconduct.

I do not contend that BoB is efficient and achieved its position by excellence. And as I told you in the previous paragraph I do not care about it either.

I do not wish to see BoB punished. I want to see the Devs / GMs who misused their right punished in order to avoid future reincidence of this case.

I also want to see the person who was arbitrarily punished for revealing the stuff who needed to be revealed reinstated in the game.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Aarin Wrath

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:08:00 +0000

This is my first time hearing about this.

This has made shacknews:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45646

and bluesnews:
http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215

I wouldn't be surprised if slashdot and digg pick it up soon.

As for me, I am not certain I will renew my subscription after this. People harp about nanoships or nos or and and all exploits all the time. Yet here we have actual Dev cheating. I think my money could be spent better else where.

No you cant have my stuff.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Seviere

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:08:00 +0000

I'm sorry to say i saw this coming for a long time. I'm not even in one alliance and i saw this coming for a long time.

Don't you read EVE Tribune?
Don't you read Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussions forum?
Why is it that every single war that BoB enters is filled with acusations of Dev's and GM's interfearance?
Does that happen with other alliance wars? No it doesn't.

It's BPO's being offered, it's story arcs being disclosed, it's alliance tournaments, it's acusations about ISD, it's EVE-TV (SJ remember him?), it's the ban stick being thrown in a dubius fashion...

Why, oh why do devs play the game on TQ? You wanna see if there is lag? Just jump into a uber dev ship and go wacth it with your uber cloak modules. You wanna test ships? Go to SISI for god sake.

And the BoB's commitement to this thread is just amazing. And how many BoB posts have been censured? None. And you see the censure bat everywhere in this thread.

This just makes me sick

P.S. Wich i could post with my main but i just can't seem to update my subscription

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Murukan

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Quote:

At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing.

It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context.

I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right.

quit the game then

Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own.

You aren't making right lol. You're joining the rest of the tinfoil bandwagon to try and come up with excuses to why you're organization is innept. So if you want to make right then just quit the game

Manlove by Zaphod Jones

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

You forget nameless alt, I know what ASCN did because I had forum access.

Gunga mailed ISD if such information was appropriate for the forums and they said no. This happened to be just prior to the first BoB forum hack.

Its really a moot point though, ASCN might as well have had a link to their private forums open on the EvE page for all the 'privacy' they had.

You're leaving something out, the petitions on the matters were never addressed beyond that point. No action resulted from it.

But yes, the whole of EVE had access. Question now is from Kieron's message and CCP's decisions and actions thusfar is if these have set a precedent which does bear consequences in game in the future.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Koto Rae

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:05:00 +0000

Originally by: kieron
Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

From what I have read,(and I have no personal knowledge of this), members of the corporations that had CCP employees as members sometimes knew they were CCP employees. I don't consider this "anonymity".

Does CCP expect their employees to not have personal interests in the well being of the corporations they are in?

Are CCP employees made of sterner stuff that they would not help friends out in game -- ever -- in any way ?

Does CCP have recordings of the vent and ts conversations of all their employees and therefore know that no "insider information" was passed on ?

The appearance of wrong doing is sometimes as bad as the act itself. I have no knowledge of any unfair advantage given to any corp or alliance. However, a lot of people go by the old adage "where there is smoke, there is fire". I see an awful lot of smoke here.

Eve is a great game, I don't see why CCP employees should not be able to play. But the restrictions on their accounts to curtail any hint of favoritism should be very strong, such as not being a corp officer or director, having to change corps on a regular basis, not being eligable for T2 BPO's and not being able to ever respond to a petition for a corpmate or former corpmate. I am sure there are other things also, but the main thing is to prevent any hint of favoritism.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Pravest Dall

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:04:00 +0000

If anybody should be banned - it's should be Goons and AAA for their shameless attempt to manipulate this non-event to try and weaken their enemies in the game.
It's ironic that the biggest asshats and exploiters in eve should be screaming the loudest and at the same time demonstrate that their reading comprehension is zero and their logic deduction non-existent.
To all the tin-foil hatters leaving - good riddance. To the devs, good luck in re-establishing your characters.

PS. Not a bob alt, bob pet alt, bob fanboy, ect ... but you ****heads won't believe that anyway.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Borasao

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:04:00 +0000

Quote:
A response from CCP about that would be nice to quiet things down though. Even if it's just 'We checked, and there is no unfair imbalance in bpos caused by out-of-game dev actions'.

At this point, with CCP's behaviour up until now, I don't think anyone would believe them, even if it were true. When you look like you're trying to cover something up and then submit a statement saying that it was all OK, your credibility is already gone and you are not believable. CCP has let this get out of control.

As far as all the BoB replies, I think you guys are being pretty dumb. You'd probably have been best served by being as quiet as possible and letting CCP carry the brunt of all this on their shoulders and have them deal with it. Instead, you keep defending it and keep yourselves in the forefront of the argument. This can lead to nothing other than the belief by many others that BoB and CCP are in collusion in this. This hurts both BoB and CCP and makes you both look even more guilty.

But who cares what I have to say, anyway.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Murukan
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Quote:

At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing.

It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context.

I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right.

quit the game then

Nope. I prefer to stay and make it go right. Thank you. When I see something I like going wrong I prefer to do everything I can to fix it instead of just giving up. You seem to prefer the trivial solution it seems. Well, to each his own.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by NereSky

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:03:00 +0000

It just saddens me that a game i held in high regard hs slipped into this mire,
CCCP had in my opinion a very high level of 1ntegrity and openess,
now all that seems to have changed.

i dont care if BoB contains Devs hell id be suprised if we all aren't some chess pieces on a gameboard in Iceland where the devs are all laughing at our expence.

What i do care about is Eve and these allegations which have some foundation will start to become a cancer if left unchecked will destroy the game i and many others love and pay for the privilege to play.
if there has been some inappropiate Dev help towards a player driven entity just say, if nothing is proved then again just say so , the satement i read had no real content and sounded like some political spin id expect from a politician on his back foot with something to hide.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Mar vel

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:59:00 +0000

For a guy who swore to never post, you sure do have a lot to say.
IMO, you're behaving like an idiot b/c you read what people are saying and you don't understand what people are saying.

Conflict of interest.
Favoritism.
Informational superiority.
Goods and Services.
Preferential Treatment.

For a Development group who is focused on balance as a means of promoting a democratic, fair, level playing field, this pretty much nukes the theory (unless you apply the "only if it doesn't conflict with Rule #1)

Rule #1 is I am a CCP Dev and therefore this game is my sandbox. I could care less about how what I do impacts the community and the title, and frankly, if all of you left tomorrow I would be rid of a big bag of whiners.

I don't care if a Dev account is retired; they broke the rules (leaking identity) and that's the punishment (which they self imposed) - why should I feel badly about that?

Given that they're just renamed anyway, it's hardly a collosal setback.

And FYI, Pal, you alliance benefitted big-time -ANY capacity, goods, materials, informaiton, etc. that came out of those relationships gave you huge advantages over the competition.

CCP: Want to make things better without getting repeatedly kicked in the balls?

1. Solve the issue with the T2 Marketplace.

Break out the T2 BPO's onto the NPC market. Declared the whole system pointless, and re-engineer it starting with T3 BPO's from the ground up. Do it right this time.

2. Put a Dev in each alliance to ensure uniform participation. In the cases where smaller alliances exist, one dev can service multiple alliances.

3. Sanction some kind of equitible distribution of property to the alliances that DID NOT benefit from haveing multiple Devs in their structures.

Then you have al least STARTED to repair the damage and made an equitable, fair, good faith effort to repairing the damage done.

Or....

Continue to create an untrusting, undemocratic environment where you guys get to wear your conflict avoider hats and stack the deck in a player/corp/alliance's favor. Given that there are 20 total developers, it's hardly realistic to ask the community to believe that no trangressions have taken place, no advatages given, when 1/4 of your entire Dev staff is playing in BoB.

...and for those of you who think that these kinds of issues are random events, believe me when I tell you that they are not. This has been going on for a long, long time. It's just that CCP Devs finally got caught on a big one.

Originally by: Ab Initio
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Even when that developer is the manager of your capital ship program and has direct knowledge of your account-sharing cynonet?

Apart from the fact that account sharing is a no no, I wouldnt care what position a Dev was playing on a standard account.

People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Coran Ordus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Olea Farstar
Originally by: Abriana Overlord

Bottom line here is the "mob mentality" BoB makes an excellent target why would that be?

Because your alliance has/ had known devs in it?

I don't think that's the point. If you are actually whining that devs can be in alliances, then you're not worth replying to. A dev who's in a position of power because they earned it by being good, well, so what?

The point is that there are still (vague) accusations that the devs/gms/whatever in question abused their powers and shunted goods/BPOs unfairly. I'm actually a little unclear on that, because from the logs I read, it seemed that the dev in question had acquired them more or less fairly, through purchase and trade.

A response from CCP about that would be nice to quiet things down though. Even if it's just 'We checked, and there is no unfair imbalance in bpos caused by out-of-game dev actions'.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Seviere

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:57:00 +0000

Originally by: kieron
Our goal is to provide the best possible game, gaming experience and development process possible. In light of that, we would like to address the recent allegations of CCP employee misconduct. CCP has taken these charges very seriously and since they surfaced we have launched a thorough investigation consisting of an examination of character histories ranging back to their creation as well as into any connected characters owned by the developers involved. This examination was performed by the same internal division which is also tasked with standard periodic audits of all developer and volunteer accounts. Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

As for the allegations themselves, they consist of two parts. The first part involved a case that happened seven months ago when a CCP employees identity became public knowledge within his corporation. Per company policy, the incident was investigated and actions taken where appropriate, including the removal of characters whose identities were compromised.

The second part of the accusations stem from a leak of information pertaining to an in-game event arc. Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

In both cases, these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

Last summer, CCP implemented stricter monitoring procedures and audits on all CCP employees EVE accounts. We are confident that our rigid procedures and protocol will prevent any misconduct or, at least, allow us to quickly discover it, should such an unfortunate scenario arise.

As the community knows well, we at CCP enjoy not only playing EVE Online, but improving EVE and interacting with our playerbase. We feel EVE benefits from the developers playing EVE as any other members of the community do, and to impose artificial limitations -- such as no access to Tranquility or special flagging on a developers player character -- would greatly hinder the development of EVE.

CCP is very passionate about EVE Online and is committed to its continued growth. We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

So many words to say absolutly nothing... congrats!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:55:00 +0000

Quote:

At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing.

It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context.

I don't like blind trust. It usually does not produce good results. We have several options besides this. One of them is making it as public as possible till they will be forced to do right.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Giamilton

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:54:00 +0000

It is the Devs responsibility to keep his character identity a secret. If the secret was out it was because the dev told someone. It is a shame some old characters will be deleted, but those are the rules.It's also in the EULA that one is not supposed to seek out CCP employees character identities. So if the person who posted the names actually took time to gather the info and spent time seeking the names of devs, that in itself is grounds for banning.
Just my .02 isk

Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Cortes

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Herculite

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

You forget nameless alt, I know what ASCN did because I had forum access.

Gunga mailed ISD if such information was appropriate for the forums and they said no. This happened to be just prior to the first BoB forum hack.

Its really a moot point though, ASCN might as well have had a link to their private forums open on the EvE page for all the 'privacy' they had.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rodney Caston

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:52:00 +0000

At the end of the day; all the players can do is trust CCP is doing, and has done, the right thing.

It's an online game, not a government, and only so much transparency can exist in that context.

Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Cortes

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Pugsley Addams

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:51:00 +0000

Kieron and CCP,

You guys need to wake up, and do so now. This thread is, in effect, a virutal riot. It will not get better for your company on its own.

I would like to call on CCP to implement an IMPARTIAL THIRD PARTY investigation of all of this. As has been suggested on other forums, Kieron or Oveur may also have characters participating in the same alliance, and higher ups at CCP may have close relationships with the people who have been implicated. While I am not saying this is true, even the mere suggestion of it is sufficient for CCP personnel to recuse themselves from any investigation, as there is CLEARLY the appearance of a conflict of interest. Absent a 3rd party investigastion, this cloud of suspicion will never clear, CCP's reputation will be forever tarnished, and the success of any future CCP MMOs will be that much more unlikely.

If you haven't realized it yet, gentlemen, this has the ability to severely damage CCP's profitability.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:47:00 +0000

One question about the account transfer of Judicator.

DBP states he didnt pay money for it and thus was given the account right, and thus no breach of the EULA took place. Is that correct?

This is the EULA part in question.
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Account Transfer as described above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

Any breach of this section of the EULA will result in the immediate and permanent ban of all accounts registered to the offender.

-----

I bolded the relevant part. Whether or not any money changed hands is irrelevant if I read this correctly. Transfer is transfer. And thus illegal.

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Olea Farstar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Abriana Overlord

Bottom line here is the "mob mentality" BoB makes an excellent target why would that be?

Because your alliance has/ had known devs in it?

Go ahead and argue that point further, your alliances rampant posts on this matter do less to prove your innocence than they do to alleviate your guilty conscience.

As someone who lives in empire, I don't give 2 ****s about BoB otherwise.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Abriana Overlord

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Abriana Overlord

[12:17] I think you pushed certains button
[12:17] once the mob mentality had already kicked in
[12:17] and over 150 pages of flame on several forums were written by my alts?
[12:17] that is social engineering
[12:18] and you know what I am saying here
[12:18] :)

+10 points for taking it out of context, +1 point for the attempt, -10 points for taking it out of context. You fail.

I am so pwned now, the public humiliation is almost to much to bare

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:41:00 +0000

K. banishment was an absurd as anybody banishment for OUT OF THE GAME stuff no matter how related they are to the game would be. I don't know the guy, I don't know if he is a horrible human being or a saint, but it is irrelevant.

Instead of dealing with the situation and correcting a problem that was their fault they prefered to ban the guy who showed it existed. It is dirty, coward and certainly not something the community should accept.

Yes it is "just" a game, but it is a game we pay for, and a game to which we dedicate our time. What happened is not a trivial matter.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:35:00 +0000

Originally by: Abriana Overlord

[12:17] I think you pushed certains button
[12:17] once the mob mentality had already kicked in
[12:17] and over 150 pages of flame on several forums were written by my alts?
[12:17] that is social engineering
[12:18] and you know what I am saying here
[12:18] :)

+10 points for taking it out of context, +1 point for the attempt, -10 points for taking it out of context. You fail.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Abriana Overlord

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:32:00 +0000

I find it most amusing all the asshats in this thread that slag off CCP. Yet I bet some of you where eve fest saying how great CCP are , and how great they love the game and it is great that devs play the game

Bottom line here is the "mob mentality" BoB makes an excellent target why would that be? It is because they are the dominant force in eve atm.

Had it been some other small 2bit alliance hacker**** would not have got half the hype or attention

[12:17] I think you pushed certains button
[12:17] once the mob mentality had already kicked in
[12:17] and over 150 pages of flame on several forums were written by my alts?
[12:17] that is social engineering
[12:18] and you know what I am saying here
[12:18] :)

you got played and to be frank, if you are that ****ed off with ccp and this game go an find another one or STFU and play on

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM JK

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:32:00 +0000

Well the only thing i have got to say is would u rob a friend of 10 or 100, i dont think any of us in here would and that brings me back to my point we here are all paying customers whether we use Euros Sterling dollars or any other currency in the world, we are the reason Eve exists, if no-one paid then no-one would play, correct?

CCP have made a gross misjudgement in there staff and misconduct or not it is very poor in the way they are dealing with this, no Eve employee should be allowed to join a player owned Corp so that it may decide to pass on benefits unfairly, this has obviously happened and in my opinion BoB should be quashed for accepting these unfair emhancements to the game and be made to start again, i do think that unless we ( the paying customers) recieve the full details of what happened and how CCP are going to make the playing ground fair again, they will end up losing more players that would seek a fair game............

Obviously i am in the wrong for suggesting this but how bout u give all players here 1 year free gameplay and see how u fair without the cash flowing ??????
afterall we pay your wages.......

Jay

Dont like it delete it................

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by breadcat

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:30:00 +0000

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=75215

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?comments=45646

more will follow

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hurtt

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:27:00 +0000

At least now we know to what level the corruption goes. Cover-ups are pretty hard to successfully implement in this world of blogs and instant information.

This is not going away, Kieron...but a lot of your subscribers will be.

The evidence is already out there. Thousands of us read it.

Congratulations to the depraved powergamers and the misguided self-centered devs who just seriously damaged this game. All this for the ego-stroke of being 1337 in a pretend spaceship game.

Couldn't you have won legitimately without cheating and corrupting a game many of us used to really love?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yosupyoyoyo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:26:00 +0000

Quote:
O, so your talking about the guy hacked a board to get his information vs leaked information.....I understand now.

Now that you know he hacked to get the information what do you have to say about it? DO you see any difference? Or are they the same two acts in your mind?

That wasnt the point i was trying to make really, my point was that at the time no one knew he got the info thru hacking, and he himself said he had a inside source, exactly the same as the ASCN leak.
The ASCN leak was on the forums for over 4 months, but the Bob leak was deleted withing 5 minutes and a sticky was made 2 hours after.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:26:00 +0000

Ok,

I am not following one bit among all this controversy. Does the banning of this kugu guy, while seemingly arbitrary, constitute a precedent now for metagaming events being bannable offences when they trespass into legalities such as breaking into forums and teamspeak servers irrelevant of the methods used (for instance social engineering to obtain an account name, combined with just trying passwords, or social engineering to obtain forum access, etc.)?

I am getting a bit worried now. With everyone screaming for good oldfashioned witchhunts and barbeques and while we hope CCP wakes up to the fact that in spite of their conviction it appears half the subscriber base is still out for blood (on a private note, I understand why, but if this continues you folks have the potential to break this game) people never got an answer to the topics which did matter, irrelevant of identities.

BUT it appears nobody is taking into effect the practical consequences of all the actions taken thusfar in all this.
Are we looking at precedents here? Are we really willing to handle the game to a point where real life legalities come into effect? Do people realise at the same time that while this is a treshold in the evolution of EVE it can also be a breaking point?

In the past I've infiltrated plenty target organisations, after all the game provides a base design for that, schizofrenia is an art, and interests need to be assured and/or nurtured. I've observed the same thing among pretty much any faction in this game. From sneaking in an alt to get a member list, to cyno locations, forum information, teamspeak details, etcetera. Irrelevant of the whole drama at hand here, I am faced with the question whether that kugu ban was an arbitrary action (in which case it is not a comforting display regardless of the effectuated legal matters, but simply by being an arbitrary action) or whether this has become the prelude to a new policy out of precedent. I'd love to know, because in the past using any methods whatsoever to obtain insider information of corporate affairs was never a matter subject to banning. There is no distinction here or social engineering though, no matter how I turn it the moment I were to obtain information by gaining access to any resources subject to any agreement regardless of its legal applications or implications in whichever country, would I become subject to a bannable offence.

Now not many people condone spying, many consider it roleplaying, some a career, others consider it a survival tool, others consider it a duty. There is not a single active team based corporation in EVE which has not used or been subject to infiltration in game to obtain out of game information since it's history. So, what is the verdict for this now. Is this the end of social engineering to that effect? Do people go looking for new careers? Do people now petition infiltrants for banning?

Look, I see so many folks burning themselves up over the wrong questions, I see even more folks trying to light up the diverting questions. Summary thusfar is that CCP haven't addressed the critical dilemma's, have not addressed the trust issues at hand, and through mumbo jumbo have polarised the topics and the people involved - and this is all of us - even further.
Now stop for a moment and look at consequences, and ask if you really want those, or even want to deal with that.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ben Derindar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:25:00 +0000

You know, it's funny. A couple of years ago my corpmates at the time would complain about some of our enemies at the time, how they seemed to know everything we were doing before even we did. Some of them speculated between themselves that they were devs or had dev connections.

All this time, I had never really believed it. Until now.

Well, the Russians are still getting away with their complex farming, so at least CCP are being consistent with their rulings I suppose. >_<

/Ben

How to fix Eve

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:22:00 +0000

Huh... CCP does need someone to fix their forums, all that post deleting has made it so that when you quote a message, you end up quoting a completely different one.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Sallie Looker
Originally by: BillyBong2

O, so your talking about the guy hacked a board to get his information vs leaked information.....I understand now.

Now that you know he hacked to get the information what do you have to say about it? DO you see any difference? Or are they the same two acts in your mind?

The hacker breaks into your server and takes information.

The spy lies to you, pretends to be your friend, gets what he wants, and then stabs you in the back.

I do see a difference between them. It just may not be the difference you imagine.

Yes. The hacker is a much better person. :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sallie Looker

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:16:00 +0000

Originally by: BillyBong2

O, so your talking about the guy hacked a board to get his information vs leaked information.....I understand now.

Now that you know he hacked to get the information what do you have to say about it? DO you see any difference? Or are they the same two acts in your mind?

The hacker breaks into your server and takes information.

The spy lies to you, pretends to be your friend, gets what he wants, and then stabs you in the back.

I do see a difference between them. It just may not be the difference you imagine.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Randay

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:15:00 +0000

@everyone who is quitting: Can I have your stuff?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Murukan

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo

The threads where deleted 5 minutes after they first appeared, 2 hours later a sticky was made outlawing any external forum linkage. I was checking eve-o when it happened.

That was really funny... CCP wants to be all open and transparent, yet they censor their own forums with the fervor and zeal of .. well.. let's not invoke Godwin's law just yet, but you get the idea.

Free speach!!

Manlove by Zaphod Jones

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:13:00 +0000

Originally by: sakana
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Originally by: dosperado
Edited by: dosperado on 07/02/2007 19:47:16
Just saw some news on Bluesnews about that issue....

Nice. I suggest that everyone that is not satisfied with Kieron answer publish it somewhere. Blogs, game magazine interviews, anywhere. Lets show the whole world how CCP deals with problems. Maybe then they will begin to understan that we are customers not money cattle.

possibly the worst idea ever tbh. in this thread alone a lot of new "evidence" and "insider information" is being mentioned. CCP need to check out all this stuff too, there also must be millions of lines of logs to go through, for many many accounts.

Give them time and we'll get a result, and i really hope said result isnt in the termination of the dev as a CCP employee. BoB would be pretty much as powerful as they are today without any of these alledged accusations taking place anyway, so firing the guy is a bit much imo. I'm not a big fan of BoB in-game, due to current wars/politics, but there is far too much smack, accusations and pointless garbage directed towards them (and coming from them) in this thread. Let CCP do their job. If something happened, they'll find it in time.

No it is not the worst idea. It is the best one.

CCP declared the case closed. They clearly stated that. The won't find out anything else. And I do not share your optimism when you say the will "find it in time". Unless by in time you mean maybe in 10 years...

Corporations only move for one motive. Money. Negative image equals money loss. So if we are ignored and nothing is done to solve these grave issues, in order for them to be solved we must produce enough negative image.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by BillyBong2

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:12:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Offcourse i was going from ASCN to someone elses posts, since the ASCN threads where NEVER deleted in the first place i wouldnt be refering those as the deleted threads now would i?
to answer your question i was referring to the threads made by the guy (who at that time said he got the info from a boB member)that leaked the BoB boards confidential.

O, so your talking about the guy hacked a board to get his information vs leaked information.....I understand now.

Quote:
(who at that time said he got the info from a boB member)

Now that you know he hacked to get the information what do you have to say about it? DO you see any difference? Or are they the same two acts in your mind?

_______________________________________________

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Do'om Tealon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:09:00 +0000

Edited by: Do''om Tealon on 07/02/2007 21:07:16

Originally by: kieron
bla bla

Wow. So many words to say so little :)

Advanced Political Bullsh1tting / Rank 10 / SP: 1463214 of 2560000
+Currently training to: level 5
+Time left: 13 days, 21 hours, 10 minutes, 19 seconds
+SP done: 698928 of 2096786

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos

First, no hacking was made anywhere that concerns CCP. CCP has no right to punish someone for hacking a forum over which they have no ownership. As far as I know they banned him for disclosing personal information here. Which is inside their right but the same should be applied to Molle for fairness sake.

Second, the means are not more important than the infraction. Sorry, but private forum infiltration and hacking are exactly the same in my view. They are just two different means to accomplish a dirty work.

What some people forget is that this is a game not a world. CCP has the right to do anything they want in their sandbox, even if it were unjust. If they feel someone is harming the game, poof, you are gone. By definition devs can't cheat, but thats gaming philosophy 401 and we are still dealing with 101 here.

If I were a dev of any game, and someone hacked an outside forum and gave away my information to the public, guess how long that player would be in game :) But thats just me

Now as for this on going witch hunt, which I don't think anyone not directly involved has all the facts. As you said 'as far as I know' and thats the issue. Its only as far as anyone knows but in true information age fashion everyone is jumping to the most wild conclusions based on almost no data.

Odds are there is NO way to prove if the dev cheated or not, the logs just don't cover it from then, game logs are tricky things, I've had to deal with them before. (Not eve of course) Yet despite no proof the characters in question are still going to be deleted again for the good of the game.

Also a clarification but there was no rule about private forum posting in COAD until after ASCN protested their forum info being there.

I don't think anyone complaining would accept anything less than a pronouncement of guilty, and the banning of BoB CEO's, which is just arseinine.

Also if hacking and being GIVEN forum access are the same in your view, your views are mistaken. I had access to ASCN forums for the entire war, and I know others who had been gone far longer than me who had access. I could have been a BoB spy had I wanted to be, and I think its a far cry to compare ASCN's total lack of forum protection to using a hack to get in. In game terms its like comparing a loggofski to a wcs :)

No they do not have the right to do as they want, they just have the power to. If they arbitrarly ban players for things that should NOT concern them, they are abusing their right and this arbitrary nehavior should be exposed to all the media.

There is never a way to absolutely prove something happened. Be in the real world or in our nice virtual world. All you can have is enough circumstancial evidence to produce a reasonable degree of likelyness about the infraction. In which case in most judgements the accused is found guilty. Sometimes he is not guilty and the evidences point to a direction other then the truth, but the alternative is to never punish anybody for anything, what leads to total chaos. In my humble opinion CCP has enough evidence undigged to fire some people. And that is their obligation at this point.

Hacking is as legitimate as lying, my friend. You lied. Hacking is not "eviler" or "dirtier" than giving false allegiance, what you did. It is just another way of getting information.

PS Analogies are a ridiculous way of trying to prove your point. Nothing is ever "like" anything else.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yosupyoyoyo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:07:00 +0000

Offcourse i was going from ASCN to someone elses posts, since the ASCN threads where NEVER deleted in the first place i wouldnt be refering those as the deleted threads now would i?
to answer your question i was referring to the threads made by the guy (who at that time said he got the info from a boB member)that leaked the BoB boards confidential.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:04:00 +0000

so now im reading that more devs are in bob, any truth to that kieron?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim

You are missunderstanding this forum and the contract you signed with ccp. They havent given you a right to democratically decide how they run eve once you pay 15$. Either you like their way of doing stuff or you stop paying.
If they want to shut you up on the forums they will do so the only counter you have is to click "terminate payment".

I'm not commenting on the general moderation of the forums, just the oddity of a whole set of rules suddenly comes into effect right at the onset of this little shindig.

If you'd be an external observer, you'd pretty much take that to be CCP attempting to cover it's own ass. The same way SOE usually reacts to any "bad press" about their games. Censor it, delete it, pretend it doesn't exist, and hope to God the problem goes away.

Which frankly isn't quite what I expected from CCP, but I guess once a gaming company grows past a certain size they all take on the same traits.

Oh well.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Xendie
Originally by: BillyBong2
Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

The difference is the information from the ASCN forum was aquired from alts that were let into the forum, they did not get their forums hacked into by a player not of the alliance or any corp in the alliance.

If the difference between that escapes you, then I am sorry.

pretexting is illegal in just about any country that has computer laws hence why bob broke laws to get the information.
wich would according to CCP's eula be a bannable offense wouldnt it?

you should check in which cases pretexting applies before you use it in a wrongly fashion on these forums. Wikipedia might not always be the best ressource here bud.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:56:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo

The threads where deleted 5 minutes after they first appeared, 2 hours later a sticky was made outlawing any external forum linkage. I was checking eve-o when it happened.

That was really funny... CCP wants to be all open and transparent, yet they censor their own forums with the fervor and zeal of .. well.. let's not invoke Godwin's law just yet, but you get the idea.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sentinel Eeex

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
I bet investigation took 30 minutes, and it took 2 weeks to write this "report" on investigation. Good job on writing report that says nothing, and avoids answering any real questions.

I think all parties agree that the OP is lacking, in clarity and finality.

Blah, blah, blah.

Are you Kieron? If not... noone was asking you anything. Thanks.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Xendie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:53:00 +0000

Originally by: BillyBong2
Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

The difference is the information from the ASCN forum was aquired from alts that were let into the forum, they did not get their forums hacked into by a player not of the alliance or any corp in the alliance.

If the difference between that escapes you, then I am sorry.

pretexting is illegal in just about any country that has computer laws hence why bob broke laws to get the information.
wich would according to CCP's eula be a bannable offense wouldnt it?

Quote:
Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?

Quote:
jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zyrus Corporation

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:46:00 +0000

hi guyz

as I see this case there are two possibilities:
1) either this game developer had the power to control the game play
2) or he did not have this power because he is working on something totally different (like grafic stuff etc.)

if 1 ist true, then he does not need to cheat on a T2 BPO lottery. I mean he would be something like a god or at least a powerful mage in EVE. if he wants a T2 BPO he just makes them and *plopp* there they are! and there would be no sideeffect to other lottery participents by creating them that way...
if 2 is true, then he also lacks the power to influence / control a lottery in EVE

Therefore I doubt that there is much behind this issue except hot air and frustration from players that still havent won a single T2 BPO!

Zyrus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Vandemar Croup

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
How could CCP tell it was alts on ASCN forums, they went by what was said on eve/o didnt they. Same as they are doing now, they are taking some strangers word to make a judgement. Or are they strangers.

By posting information from ASCN/D2/etc forums the users were in breach of the forum rules they signed up for when they registered their accounts.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Emily Spankratchet

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:37:00 +0000

Nice to see a statement, but (as has been done to death in the preceding pages) it answers two allegations and leaves others unanswered. In particular, the thing that seems to have enraged people most is the T2 BPO issue. If the investigation could (truthfully) say something along the lines of "the BPOs handed over by the Dev's character were obtained through legitimate means" then a lot of people would be happier. A lot of people would still be frothing at the mouth, but that's the nature of forums.

I'm one of the people who wouldn't want Devs to stop playing the game. But their ownership of high-value items such as T2 BPOs should be scrutinised by auditors as a matter of course, not just when there are allegations from the tinfoil hat brigade.

If nothing else, this has reminded me why I shouldn't read forums. People reading wild allegations (and I've read the stuff on wossname's site), then thrashing around and building it up into a huge conspiracy just depresses me.

All the "OMFG, I used to love you and now I'll never trust you again. I feel soiled! I'm quitting and never playing again. You're all corrupt!" might be a little OTT, no?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hari Sel'don

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:36:00 +0000

Originally by: Therem Harth

I do not subscribe to the blatant dribbling witch-hunt in progress here; however it is rather obvious that BoB reap what they sow. It is rather futile to try and say you are reveling in the "bad guys" image ingame and then put on "mature guys" posture when cornered on forums. The stain of the first kind of inevitably leaks through and mars the latter. Therefore, it is readily apparent that not very much loyal understanding of your pain because of possibly unfounded accusations is to be found around here.

Getting back on topic, I understand that all of this is probably quite painful and discomforting for CCP; however being a company which not only develops, but also runs the game (that is, as a commercial MMOG operator), there is only one way to handle this: unspin. Go full disclosure on violations (of course when you have taken your time to really investigate), and apply all rules for everyone squarely. If, say, dbp is found to be not guilty of anything - say it out loud, costs you nothing and is a definitive authoritative statement (as opposed to public gnawing at cliffhangers). If SirMolle publicly posts RL information about a player and is proved to - ban him, on common grounds, without all the childish countdowns on who hacked who first. Acting firmly, decisively and openly will minimize the hurt for the company, and, after all, we know you can do that, as evidenced before (4S naming crisis, anyone?).

And as to the allegations flying around in this thread, I suggest people come to their senses. It is rather obvious that machinations with T2 BPOs and other instanced objects (including isk) in the game are very easily traced. What IS the problem is the inside/early information leaking. In this game knowing something is the key, and knowing something earlier, or something others don't - gives you a very real and substantial edge (say, POS towers price change in RMR, as a fleeting example). However, it is impossible to fully control and/or investigate. How'd you imagine that? Require a sworn affidavit "I haven't told anyone anything" from every dev, to be witnessed in Hallgrimskirkja? What if s/he blurted something out on #eve-chaos and forgot about it the next day? This can't even be monitored properly. The only thing that can be done is internal CCP cultivation of "don't leak stuff" policy, done in an explanatory way conducive to internal company culture. And all you people crying cheatshaxomgusuck can't do that anyway, so maybe take a napkin and step back a few steps? :)[/quote

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hari Sel'don

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:35:00 +0000

Originally by: Cringeley
Kieron, you seem to think that you're the police, or a dictator, and all you have to do is stave off discovery and keep everyone in the dark, and everything will be ok.

This is customer relations. You can treat us like customers and get our money, or you can treat us like mushrooms and get a big stanky box of rotten mushrooms to eat while you wait for an unemployment cheque. But you can't keep us in the dark and feed us !@#$ and expect us to pay for the privilege.

I have never been a major proponent of this whole dev misconduct outrage. I agree that devs should be allowed to sample the game, both for their benefit and ours. But this answer you have given is just ridiculous. Devs have played with an in-game alliance, and revealed their identity to their allies. They have done so selectively, and they have delivered major financial benefits to their in-game friends. Worst of all, some CCP employees seem to be able to get away with this, while others who have made contact with other alliances have been brought up short for doing so.

Now whether or not there was any formal cheating involved, you have a major conflict of interest problem on your hands, and you haven't even taken the first of a thousand steps towards solving it. When you were investigating I assumed that things would come out for the best, but this answer has struck my faith in CCP really, really low. Now I'm just waiting to see if devs take in-game reprisals against those who brought the issue to public attention.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by j0sephine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:34:00 +0000

"And I bet you're pretty ****ed off atm? All your accomplishments, tainted forever due to this? Don't tell me you don't care, you know thats a lie."

Am seriously annoyed with the whole "they could've cheated so they obviously did, bring the tar and feathers!" angle, because it's aimed at people i happen to like (and the tight-lipped form of the original announcement obviously isn't helping)

The tainted accomplishment thing... tbh, no, it doesn't matter to me because #1 most people who say it already held that view so it ain't new thing, and #2 i've been there for quite a part of it, and killed, lagged out, died and got bored out of my skull on the freighter runs and corp fund raising sprees with the rest of them... so have fairly good idea how much of real effort went into these things. It would be much easier if we were just cheating instead, actually... but we didn't. So people are free to believe what they want to believe, reading it is a bit like reading serious statements that earth is flat, for example

(i fully realize it must be funny for them to read this sort of statement, for similar reason as they're quite convinced in their outlook... but that's okay, this way it's entertaining for both sides ;s

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Foxdonut

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:34:00 +0000

First of all - I still believe that this is just a game - it's for joy, nothing for taking tooooo serious.

But to the topic:

1. I think it is important for Devs playing this game - last but not least it is part of their work.

2. I also believe that this is an interest conflict, because where humans are involved and the possibility of misuse is given - there will be misuse by someone that has the power to do so. That is kind of human nature and it's in statistic - no need to be Einstein to conclude this.

3. It is my personal opinion, that every large alliance has someone with "the hot wire" to a dev - whatever this may mean. From one I know it for sure... and that is not BoB.

But all thas doesn't matter, because this is just a game - btw could some GM ban the whole Italian 1st soccer league - they are cheatin, everybody knows

- I'm still confused but on a much higher level -

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tragic Lass

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:32:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

CCP only became involved after the forum leaks caused people to make specific allegations about CCP employees. These clearly had to be addressed. (Whether or not they have actually been addressed is an exercise for the reader.)

I'm beginning to think that this whole thing is a carefully-planned social experiment.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hari Sel'don

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:32:00 +0000

I feel moved to post.

Im just your average Jo Bloggs who nowadays pays subscription on a couple accounts and mucks about in empire. Dont have the time to be involved in Alliances anymore but i have in the past and over the course of the last 4 years (i have played since day of release) i have tried pretty much every career choice Eve has to offer. Like everyone here i love the game, passionately.

I was shocked to read the initial allegation threads. I too have witnessed very strange and somewhat suspicious events and/or bugs in my time in Eve. But you move on and give the benefit of doubt and recover and you know, s**t happens!

I couldn't give a fig about BOB and the alleged impropriety. I respect them for what they have done and who they are but i don't particularly like their attitude. I suspect that this holds true for the vast majority of eve subscriptions, all those empire dwellers.

What i care most about is the perceived integrity of the makers of the game i love. Today, (and if there are no more forthcoming, more emphatic announcements) that integrity has been shoddily put into question.

Not enough...is an apt sentiment. CCP you really need to stomp on this and put it to rest in an EMPHATIC manner. Please.

I have read the entire thread. For those of you without the time here are the best posts.

Originally by: Stalert Balakos
Dear kieron,
Do you really think this statement "will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community"? If so, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.

At the time these allegations first arose you promised us a full investigation. Many of us hoped that you would share the results of that investigation with us but you have not.

You have stated that certain dev characters have been deleted because it had become known that they were used by CCP employees. As I understand it this would have to have happened anyway - whether the allegations were true or not - so this doesn't shed any light on the results of the investigations.

You say that the deletion of these characters is unfortunate, from which we can only infer that they had done nothing wrong, so why not say that? If the investigation revealed that nothing untoward had happened why isn't that written in bold in paragraph one?

It may not satisfy the BoB haters or even (for different reasons) their opposite numbers in the BoB forum squad but for the 90 per cent of us (a pure guesstimate) in the middle it would have been enough.

The fact that you won't share the results of your investigations with us just leads everyone to jump to conclusions and hence you get the resulting flame-filled thread rehashing the same issues all over again.

I'm not interested in seeing anyone's name dragged through the mud, I just want you to tell us straightforwardly what the investigation revealed.

I think you've missed a very good opportunity to once again prove that CCP is the best MMORPG developer out there.

Yours, disillusioned

Stal

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by aggro

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:32:00 +0000

i see the lack of a HAST post very worrying. he post on every thread going

is he one of the gms mentioned.

i will also be joining other people shouting in local CHEAT when i see a bob member.

IF YOU CANT FIGHT FAIRLY THEN DONT FIGHT AT ALL.

Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yosupyoyoyo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:31:00 +0000

You will probably respond by saying he admitted it himself, but that was well after multiple threads where deleted before he said where he got the info. Dont forget, the first BoB leaks where deleted 5 minutes after they where posted.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare

If i host my account with you, will you read my mail? will you steal my bank details? i can't prove that you will, and you can't prove you wont. So will i just not host with anyone but my own server or shall i trust your professional judgement?

If you put it that way, I could read your mail even if you had your own server. You need connectivity from somewhere, and if you'd get it from me, I'd potentially be able to read your mail.

However, I don't. Not that you'd know that for sure, but it'd be rather strange for an ISP/webhost to spy on their customers, now wouldn't it? The only time I would do it is if I'd receive a court order for a wiretap. Even then I personally wouldn't be in your stuff, because it all goes into a little magical black box the cops have and I just get to hook it up so it'll record your stuff.

So if you're relating that to devs playing EVE and depending on their professional judgement, you're comparing apples to oranges. There's a distinct difference between an online game, where pretty much everything you do -is the property of the company that created it- which gives them much broader "rights" to do stuff like read your eve-mails.

An ISP/webhost doesn't -have- any ownership, the only thing one could claim to own is the connectivity, and for me to be reading your stuff would, most likely, be illegal because there's this whole thing about the right to privacy.

In EVE, you don't have any of that.

QED
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yosupyoyoyo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:27:00 +0000

How could CCP tell it was alts on ASCN forums, they went by what was said on eve/o didnt they. Same as they are doing now, they are taking some strangers word to make a judgement. Or are they strangers.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Daggiz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:24:00 +0000

In this great game of Eve, this toon is a nobody, and I like it that way. Especially after seeing all of this happen. I am quite certain that regardless of the Alliance, this would have occured. My meager thoughts on this:

1.) Devs should play the game. Period. Only way to find out all the bugs and try and replicate them to get them fixed.

2.) Devs should be allowed to play in any alliance they choose. I have no issues with that at all.

3.) If Devs or anyone else that is on staff or a volunteer with CCP see any hint of impropiety with the group they play with, they should have an obligation to do something about it. No if's, and's or but's. What is worth more? The integrity and the reputation of CCP? Or being able to play with a bunch of friends that you know are going around game mechanics (if that is ever case)?

4.) I feel bad for the devs outed and having to replace three years (or however long) of work in-game and having to start over. That just sucks and if I was a dev I would be wondering if I really wanted to continue playing a game where the challenge "spot the dev".

5.) If this is the final communication on this, wow. Were told findings would be published a few times in different threads, but this kinds insinuates that this is the end of the line. Which is it?

6.) For everyone bashing certain alliances, are your motives that pure? Really, are you after the balanced playing field or are you trying to eliminate a powerful group of players?

I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to the majority of people involved. "One person's perception is another person's reality" seems to really fit in this case. I do not doubt that no matter what the final findings are (and if they get released) that they will please over 100k people.

Finally, no matter what, toons are just toons.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by BillyBong2

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Yosupyoyoyo
Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

The difference is the information from the ASCN forum was aquired from alts that were let into the forum, they did not get their forums hacked into by a player not of the alliance or any corp in the alliance.

If the difference between that escapes you, then I am sorry.
_______________________________________________

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yosupyoyoyo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:21:00 +0000

Herculite you are wrong, ASCN complained for over 4 motnhs and nothing was done about their forum being leaked. only after Bob suffered it themselves was it illegal.

The leaked info is authentic, otherwise there would be no justification for banning anyone (it being fabricated).

Read my words before they are censored and removed.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Bembelritter

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:21:00 +0000

for me its just easy

i see there will come some transparency in this act of cheating otherwise i and as i know some friends are not willing to further pay money for this game and so i think there will be a lot of people.

i just hope cause this game gave me so much, the game masters will take care, the users will get their faith back.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ishiko

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:17:00 +0000

- "Whatever doesn't kill me 'd better get the hell out of my way-

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Herculite

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos

First, no hacking was made anywhere that concerns CCP. CCP has no right to punish someone for hacking a forum over which they have no ownership. As far as I know they banned him for disclosing personal information here. Which is inside their right but the same should be applied to Molle for fairness sake.

Second, the means are not more important than the infraction. Sorry, but private forum infiltration and hacking are exactly the same in my view. They are just two different means to accomplish a dirty work.

What some people forget is that this is a game not a world. CCP has the right to do anything they want in their sandbox, even if it were unjust. If they feel someone is harming the game, poof, you are gone. By definition devs can't cheat, but thats gaming philosophy 401 and we are still dealing with 101 here.

If I were a dev of any game, and someone hacked an outside forum and gave away my information to the public, guess how long that player would be in game :) But thats just me

Now as for this on going witch hunt, which I don't think anyone not directly involved has all the facts. As you said 'as far as I know' and thats the issue. Its only as far as anyone knows but in true information age fashion everyone is jumping to the most wild conclusions based on almost no data.

Odds are there is NO way to prove if the dev cheated or not, the logs just don't cover it from then, game logs are tricky things, I've had to deal with them before. (Not eve of course) Yet despite no proof the characters in question are still going to be deleted again for the good of the game.

Also a clarification but there was no rule about private forum posting in COAD until after ASCN protested their forum info being there.

I don't think anyone complaining would accept anything less than a pronouncement of guilty, and the banning of BoB CEO's, which is just arseinine.

Also if hacking and being GIVEN forum access are the same in your view, your views are mistaken. I had access to ASCN forums for the entire war, and I know others who had been gone far longer than me who had access. I could have been a BoB spy had I wanted to be, and I think its a far cry to compare ASCN's total lack of forum protection to using a hack to get in. In game terms its like comparing a loggofski to a wcs :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Athren Soulsteal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:09:00 +0000

Why is everyone acting like this is new "news"

When we have talked about the Prat welfare program this is exactly some of the programs (events) we listed, which BTW has been going on since 2003.

This is not some isolated incident but simply one (1) dev player going just a bit too far into the light of day. This type of stuff is SOP (standard operating procedure) in EVE which is why some of us have been calling for the end of the Prat welfare programs.

I like that the Devs (and the rest of CCP employees) play, in fact I believe that its important so that they can get a frame of reference for when we have a problem (bug, interface, lag, ) . The only real problem is that it can also bias them so that instead of creating a balanced game they create a bunch of Judas goats to try and enhance their play style instead of enhancing the entire game.

As they are suppressing this as much as possible these like so many other incidents will quickly become obscure with time, so to everyone that read and or posted in this thread I welcome you to the tin foil hat squad because a year from now if you mention this incident thats exactly what you will be accused of wearing.

Quote:
Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.

I wish I could fit all the Quote

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yaay

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Roland 99
Edited by: Roland 99 on 07/02/2007 06:07:56
Problems I have with this:

1. no names were admitted as to the characters involved. This should have been a public execution of the people who knowingly screwed honest eve players.
2. no assurance given that BOB will no longer have access to privilaged information
3. removing the seemingly limited number of characters alluded to will not keep the afortamentioned info out of BOB hands
4. No action alluded to or taken to remove all the T2 BPO's BOB received via GM intervention and/or hacks and exploits
5. such as no access to Tranquility or special flagging on a developers player character -- would greatly hinder the development of EVE.
THIS IS BULLCRAP AND WILL ALLOW THIS ACTIVITY TO CONTINUE
6. WHY THE HELL WERE THESE PEOPLE NOT FIRED??!!
7. like an american political candidate, what they said was designed to enrage the fewest number of people and will result in virtually zero constructive action
8. They got away with it and will continue to do so. No one will defeat BOB with this sickening amount of dev intervention(AKA unexplained lag, sploits, and all that rubbish). I am seriously considering removing my eve account due to the fact that no one has or will ever have a level playing field.

Please do, the game doesn't need people who want to blame their own faults on the devs. So what, someone is better than you at something... it happens.

There are so many myths out there about BoB and their amazing feats only accomplishable by devs. I listend to them for over 2 years. After a while, I finally figured out that people were just looking for complex answers to simple issues.

I've seen crazy stuff in this game that I really can't explain. Most of it doesn't even pertain to BoB or anyone associated with them.

Why don't you people put the myths behind you and start playing the game for what it is, enjoyment.

I'm tired of people making excuses. Maybe, just maybe, BoB is better than the rest. I've played on both sides of this battle, and I see nothing to contradict that.

Yaay

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Solid Wilko

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:04:00 +0000

Hmm.

I think this is reeking.

A friend of mine got flogged and banned forever. He put in 3 years of his life, was a volunteer ect. He loved the game.
since I will obviously get censored/banned for discussing the particulars of his ban, defacto is that even in the aftermath you never sent him his material back even though you promised Kieron.

We are many who has watched his ban with disgust.

Least you could do is live up to your promise to him.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Omega Bloodstone

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Prydeless
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 19:38:34
Originally by: j0sephine
Frankly, it's sad to see people hell-bent on raking t20 over the coals in this thread. He's perhaps most dedicated out of them all to provide community on the whole with extra info -- these 3rd party websites with item browsers, jump planners, manufacturing tables etc? They work based on data dumps provided by none but t20. He's been also about the only one to openly (in another thread on this forum) talk how it is to be a dev who plays the game on regular account... i.e. the only person who can be seen as giving some of that "transparency" people scream for. What he gets for that transparency? His own quotes thrown back at him as "evidence of guilt". Yeah, that kind of reaction will work swimmingly in convincing CCP to be more transparent with their playerbase.

I agree that t20 is a good person and an asset to the community.

I also agree that many of the people who are squaking the loudest (Goonswarm, among others) might be construed to have a conflict of interest.

However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects.

If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am.

However, kieron has shown no interest in transparency. His statement is instead a declaration that CCP intends to sweep this episode under the rug.

This is why I feel this scandal has effects that transcend in-game political affiliation. The sociopolitical fabric of the game depends fundamentally on the concept that in-game assets are acquired fairly. (Think about what would happen to mineral markets if someone found a way to dupe Megacyte, or what would happen to T2 markets if someone found a way to run reactions in station rather than in a POS.)

The mere appearance of impropriety on t20's part is a direct attack on this fundamental assumption.

Mind you, this is the effect of the mere appearance of impropriety. If any actual improper actions took place as alleged the sociopolitical and economic consequences are profound.

This is why I'm squawking.

-dbp

dbp's alt ftw?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Entity

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:01:00 +0000

I have just one thing to say:

WTS: Pitchforks and Torches.

Got item?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by j0sephine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:58:00 +0000

"However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects.

If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am."

True, am actually quite frustrated with the vague manner the original announcement was done... if just because it only helps to fuel things like this ongoing 2o pages worth of back-and-forth rabble thing. Sort of hoping they'll follow up with some clarification, if just for the sake of their own employees who are getting the raw end of the deal as the result here :<

"dbp's alt ftw?"

From the earlier remarks/threads i was under impression that's Mittani's alter-ego or accomplice (if i can use such word) ... the -dbp thing is more of ongoing goon injoke than anything? ;s

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:57:00 +0000

Originally by: dosperado
Edited by: dosperado on 07/02/2007 19:47:16
Just saw some news on Bluesnews about that issue....

Nice. I suggest that everyone that is not satisfied with Kieron answer publish it somewhere. Blogs, game magazine interviews, anywhere. Lets show the whole world how CCP deals with problems. Maybe then they will begin to understan that we are customers not money cattle.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gneiss Phace

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

2) Why is it that the K. has been banned, but the people who posted his personal information are still merrily around on these forums? Why is it that any mention of his name, or his site, will either result in a deleted post or a forum ban? All that does is reinforce the idea that you (CCP) have something to cover up.

If those people hadn't spoken up and yelled and screamed and yelled and screamed, there wouldn't have been an investigation. If people don't do **** like that, then CCP just goes on as usual and nothing gets done.

There should be some accountability, and this is an example of just how far you have to push CCP before they'll do anything.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:57:00 +0000

Originally by: j0sephine
"All kidding aside, you know that this kinda post only re-affirms everyones opinions, right?"

Yes, quite possibly; people determined to see a dev under each bed are probably long past the point where they could consider how their own behaviour can affect them in the long run.

On the other hand, can you honestly say what i described is unreasonable prediction, and that many devs in fact would instead *love* to have such indirect abuse hurled at them on daily basis, and will selflessly seek out these corps to join them and "even the playing field" this way? Or continue playing in them, for these who are already members...

If they know whats good for the game and their job they will. Another scandal like this is something CCP can't afford.

And you bet that people will be watching you like a hawk.

As for more devs joining BoB, do you think a developer wants to risk the end to his own game (and job) over this?

And just so you're aware, there is a list of BoB members out there who work for CCP and last time I checked, they are still in BoB.

And I bet you're pretty ****ed off atm? All your accomplishments, tainted forever due to this? Don't tell me you don't care, you know thats a lie.

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Helganstandt

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:56:00 +0000

This is probably going to get lost between all the other bob vs. the universe stuff, but...

Any chance CCP could give us a little more info on the allegations of the t2 lottery abuse? It wasn't even mentioned in the first, and it was definitely an allegation...I mean, I would even feel better if there was one thing saying that there was no proof or whatnot, or is still under investigation. Anything really would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kronarty

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:54:00 +0000

If we are going to be throwing blame around regarding t20's outing...

If Dianabolic had not shared those "secret infos" that t20 in turn shared with him there would probably have been no outing, right?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shardiss

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

Why didn't he give his stuff to me?

Seriously: I know that he was a member of RKK, and obviously he was loyal to his buddies there. But as a dev, he owed me, and Xirt, and Gunship, and bsspewer, and every other player in the game an equal loyalty, because we pay for this game, too.

Even if the items were legitimately won, we had a dev, a CCP employee, favoring one group of players over all the rest. That's what's wrong about this. If the BPOs were spawned using dev tools, it's just exponentially worse.

The fact that some BoB leaders apparently knew about this, and saw nothing wrong with it, speaks more to their integrity than to the game's. But right now what I want to know is this: how can I be sure that another dev won't decide that someone else deserves a gift like a T2 BPO, and no one else does, just because he/she happens to be a friend?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dosperado

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:50:00 +0000

Edited by: dosperado on 07/02/2007 19:47:16
Just saw some news on Bluesnews about that issue....
____________________
NPC Mass Murderer
Security Status 8.5

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Saladin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:48:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Lyticus
my post

What about no, he's a known hacker, and you're defending him? Go you! Why are you even trying to compare real life illegal actions with legit in-game mechanics?

I ask you and other EVE players, since when does CCP have the right to enforce real-life laws?

If I contact the CEO of a corporation over MSN and convince him to give me a billion isk, is that not a real-life action?

If you have a problem with someone breaking into your forums, you need to either improve your security or involve the law. CCP should not be dealing with out of game matters via the game. Kugutsumen having his accounts banned does not un-hack your forums, nor does it solve the problem. While I do not condone the method in which he obtains his information, the fact is that CCP dont have any TOS based upon out of game actions.

This means they have no right to ban a character because of what he does out of game. What if next they start banning players from rival games companies? Or perhaps racial judgement?

Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.

- Lyticus

Reminds me of the time my RL pic was photoshopped and outed on an ATUK blog (along with some discriminating comments). I was told that they cannot take any action about things that happen out of game. Maybe if I was a CCP employee that douche would have been banned.
----

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 19:38:34
Originally by: j0sephine
Frankly, it's sad to see people hell-bent on raking t20 over the coals in this thread. He's perhaps most dedicated out of them all to provide community on the whole with extra info -- these 3rd party websites with item browsers, jump planners, manufacturing tables etc? They work based on data dumps provided by none but t20. He's been also about the only one to openly (in another thread on this forum) talk how it is to be a dev who plays the game on regular account... i.e. the only person who can be seen as giving some of that "transparency" people scream for. What he gets for that transparency? His own quotes thrown back at him as "evidence of guilt". Yeah, that kind of reaction will work swimmingly in convincing CCP to be more transparent with their playerbase.

I agree that t20 is a good person and an asset to the community.

I also agree that many of the people who are squaking the loudest (Goonswarm, among others) might be construed to have a conflict of interest.

However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects.

If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am.

However, kieron has shown no interest in transparency. His statement is instead a declaration that CCP intends to sweep this episode under the rug.

This is why I feel this scandal has effects that transcend in-game political affiliation. The sociopolitical fabric of the game depends fundamentally on the concept that in-game assets are acquired fairly. (Think about what would happen to mineral markets if someone found a way to dupe Megacyte, or what would happen to T2 markets if someone found a way to run reactions in station rather than in a POS.)

The mere appearance of impropriety on t20's part is a direct attack on this fundamental assumption.

Mind you, this is the effect of the mere appearance of impropriety. If any actual improper actions took place as alleged the sociopolitical and economic consequences are profound.

This is why I'm squawking.

-dbp

dbp's alt ftw?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:45:00 +0000

Another thing which some others brought up, if kug got banned for disclosing information about rl people shouldnt sir molle be also banned for plastering his personal info all over the forums....

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:41:00 +0000

Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 19:38:34

Originally by: j0sephine
Frankly, it's sad to see people hell-bent on raking t20 over the coals in this thread. He's perhaps most dedicated out of them all to provide community on the whole with extra info -- these 3rd party websites with item browsers, jump planners, manufacturing tables etc? They work based on data dumps provided by none but t20. He's been also about the only one to openly (in another thread on this forum) talk how it is to be a dev who plays the game on regular account... i.e. the only person who can be seen as giving some of that "transparency" people scream for. What he gets for that transparency? His own quotes thrown back at him as "evidence of guilt". Yeah, that kind of reaction will work swimmingly in convincing CCP to be more transparent with their playerbase.

I agree that t20 is a good person and an asset to the community.

I also agree that many of the people who are squaking the loudest (Goonswarm, among others) might be construed to have a conflict of interest.

However, good people can do bad things. For someone in t20's position, a little temporary impropriety can have long-lasting in-game effects.

If kieron had conducted the investigation and reported the results transparently, I wouldn't be as frustrated as I am.

However, kieron has shown no interest in transparency. His statement is instead a declaration that CCP intends to sweep this episode under the rug.

This is why I feel this scandal has effects that transcend in-game political affiliation. The sociopolitical fabric of the game depends fundamentally on the concept that in-game assets are acquired fairly. (Think about what would happen to mineral markets if someone found a way to dupe Megacyte, or what would happen to T2 markets if someone found a way to run reactions in station rather than in a POS.)

The mere appearance of impropriety on t20's part is a direct attack on this fundamental assumption.

Mind you, this is the effect of the mere appearance of impropriety. If any actual improper actions took place as alleged the sociopolitical and economic consequences are profound.

This is why I'm squawking.

-dbp

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by j0sephine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:37:00 +0000

"All kidding aside, you know that this kinda post only re-affirms everyones opinions, right?"

Yes, quite possibly; people determined to see a dev under each bed are probably long past the point where they could consider how their own behaviour can affect them in the long run.

On the other hand, can you honestly say what i described is unreasonable prediction, and that many devs in fact would instead *love* to have such indirect abuse hurled at them on daily basis, and will selflessly seek out these corps to join them and "even the playing field" this way? Or continue playing in them, for these who are already members...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by V0rador

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:35:00 +0000

That post isnt really a surprise everybody was expecting this tbh.

Still its sad thats true.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:34:00 +0000

Originally by: j0sephine
""Out me and I'll **** you up" isn't quite what I had in mind, but clearly YMMV."

Either you want transparency about what the devs are like, or to be told what you want to hear.

I doubt you'd have any different attitude about someone who caused you instantly lose reputation/friendships that came as result playing this game for a few years. Last guy with ability to forgive this sort of things was supposedly nailed to cross couple thousand years ago.

Can't say I wouldn't but I'm not after that sort of information one way or the other. Just want to know what goodies they're developing for us and that if they are playing it's all above reproach(this goes for GM staff and volunteers too). One or two people(none of them me) have posted some interesting ideas how the latter could be accomplished while improving the game even, but they kind of got lost in the melee.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:32:00 +0000

Originally by: Herculite
I may be in Fix and therefor a BoB alt or slave or something like that but just for all you tinfoil hatters I need to post this.

The implication I see that is since a known and confessed hacker was banned for hacking, that BoB should somehow be held accountable for 'hacking' as well.

Now hacking seems to have a very loose definition these days, but BoB did not hack anything to get ASCN's TS and ASCN's forums. No code was broken, no exploits used, to get this information.

ASCN had ZERO security. There were people who were out of ASCN for several months who still had forum access, no one checked. Add to it that ASCN had no recruiting standards (hell they took me as a noob after all) and anyone could get an alt in, from what I gather some corps made it a game to see how many they could get into ASCN.

So while on the one hand, we have someone using known code exploits to 'hack' into forums, the other are people who are using given accounts and just telling BoB any other info they wanted.

If you can't see the difference between illegal hacking and someone using a forum account that was registered by the moderators of that board then you have issues.

First, no hacking was made anywhere that concerns CCP. CCP has no right to punish someone for hacking a forum over which they have no ownership. As far as I know they banned him for disclosing personal information here. Which is inside their right but the same should be applied to Molle for fairness sake.

Second, the means are not more important than the infraction. Sorry, but private forum infiltration and hacking are exactly the same in my view. They are just two different means to accomplish a dirty work.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sakhalin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:28:00 +0000

um... can anyone say whitewash?

yes, devs play the game, we knew that already and didn't care. what we care about is that various devs were known to be devs by players by a certain alliance who used their insider knowledge to gain an advantage, and to get personal information about other players accounts.

CCP, you are a dishonest company.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Torshin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:26:00 +0000

Originally by: Manus Ghostface
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
I see where this is going.

"Let's post absolutely nothing, allow the community to flame for 24 hrs then close topic."

QFMFT.

Entire handling of this has left a very sour taste in my mouth. I full understand how CCP handles infractions of customers, and wouldn't expect a blow by blow breakdown of how they looked into the DBP/Judicator part, or if they decided to curbstomp SirMolle for posting personal information (they may have issued a warning, but it wouldn't be public knowledge, in line with their past policy).

What does need more detail, is what is told to us regarding the developers who broke rules, allegations they were aware and ignored EULA violations, and how we can be assured that developers will not abuse their power in the future. I'm sure there is more going on internally in CCP HQ, but they really need to have more answers in this thread, and certainly should be answering some of the questions the follow on posters have asked for clarity on. If they can dedicated 4-5 mods to watch the thread (based on the names I see on the edits), then they can have a dev watch it and clarify points, or at the least acknowledge the concerns and state if Kieron will be adding additional information.

The precipice is looming, does CCP drive off or hit the brakes?

the only violation of the rules that Kieron stated was that a corp found out that one of their members was a CCP employee

-----------------------------------------------

Offical Tardz Poo-litical Anal-yst

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by j0sephine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:25:00 +0000

""Out me and I'll **** you up" isn't quite what I had in mind, but clearly YMMV."

Either you want transparency about what the devs are like, or to be told what you want to hear.

I doubt you'd have any different attitude about someone who caused you instantly lose reputation/friendships that came as result playing this game for a few years. Last guy with ability to forgive this sort of things was supposedly nailed to cross couple thousand years ago.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Herculite
I may be in Fix and therefor a BoB alt or slave or something like that but just for all you tinfoil hatters I need to post this.

The implication I see that is since a known and confessed hacker was banned for hacking, that BoB should somehow be held accountable for 'hacking' as well.

Now hacking seems to have a very loose definition these days, but BoB did not hack anything to get ASCN's TS and ASCN's forums. No code was broken, no exploits used, to get this information.

ASCN had ZERO security. There were people who were out of ASCN for several months who still had forum access, no one checked. Add to it that ASCN had no recruiting standards (hell they took me as a noob after all) and anyone could get an alt in, from what I gather some corps made it a game to see how many they could get into ASCN.

So while on the one hand, we have someone using known code exploits to 'hack' into forums, the other are people who are using given accounts and just telling BoB any other info they wanted.

If you can't see the difference between illegal hacking and someone using a forum account that was registered by the moderators of that board then you have issues.

Its no longer about the messenger, he's been shot 20 times over. Its about the message he brought. And that still stands.

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Rod Blaine

Honestly, that's going way too far, and as Kieron stated CCP are not about to stop their devs from playing or limiting what they can do. So ...

And that is part of the problem. A dev, by nature, has more "power" than any other player in-game. Whether it be the ability to manipulate game mechanics, or advance information, they still have it.

So if someone "normal" gets 10 BPO's, sure, we say "whoa, lucky you!" and go on our way. If a dev-owned character gets 10 BPO's together, then either they were very lucky to get it, or they might've jiggled the system a bit. And you can't prove that they did, and can't prove they didn't.

That's the issue at hand; same with inside-info that gets out before it's supposed to (ISD in particular have had some trouble with that one) will give someone an unfair advantage, and whether the reward in the end is unlimited Ibises for all, or a mothership, it still stings.

Just my 2 cents.

If i host my account with you, will you read my mail? will you steal my bank details? i can't prove that you will, and you can't prove you wont. So will i just not host with anyone but my own server or shall i trust your professional judgement?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sentinel Eeex

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

Did he "leave" EVE, or just got another character?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Herculite

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:22:00 +0000

I may be in Fix and therefor a BoB alt or slave or something like that but just for all you tinfoil hatters I need to post this.

The implication I see that is since a known and confessed hacker was banned for hacking, that BoB should somehow be held accountable for 'hacking' as well.

Now hacking seems to have a very loose definition these days, but BoB did not hack anything to get ASCN's TS and ASCN's forums. No code was broken, no exploits used, to get this information.

ASCN had ZERO security. There were people who were out of ASCN for several months who still had forum access, no one checked. Add to it that ASCN had no recruiting standards (hell they took me as a noob after all) and anyone could get an alt in, from what I gather some corps made it a game to see how many they could get into ASCN.

So while on the one hand, we have someone using known code exploits to 'hack' into forums, the other are people who are using given accounts and just telling BoB any other info they wanted.

If you can't see the difference between illegal hacking and someone using a forum account that was registered by the moderators of that board then you have issues.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Malachon Draco

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:20:00 +0000

Originally by: j0sephine
And all of you complaining "there's devs in BoB and we have none, unfair advantage!11!one!" ... i don't know how many devs is in different alliances, but consider this: on one hand you have hysterical crowd operating on inherent belief that "devs must be cheating because they're devs with insider knowledge" and ranting about it ad nauseam... and on the other hand you have a group that says "if you are a dev, we couldn't care less". Now maybe ask yourself: if you were a dev... would you really like to spend your play time with the former group, and have to listen day in day out in their corp chat and on their forum how you and other CCP employees are nothing but cheats, hacks and rigging the game against them..?

Maybe the "problem" is just as much with your own attitude as you think it's with CCP's... :|

Translation: all the devs are in BoB and they told us they hate the rest of the whining customerbase which is why they joined up

All kidding aside, you know that this kinda post only re-affirms everyones opinions, right?

And I don't see this going away just yet, CCP might hope to sweep it under the rug, but I bet that there are enough people out there with enough of a grudge to keep bringing this up over and over again.

--------------
In other news, after careful investigation, the Guiding Hand Social Club concluded that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club was guilty of any wrongdoing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:19:00 +0000

Quote:
And Devs would have a few advantages, like the guy who religiously reads patch notes and verifies everything on Singularity would.

No, they would have those advantages before the poor guys who read patch notes religiously and goes into the test server.

To further ellucidate the point I want you to do a thing for me. Go into the stock market and ask anyone what happens when a broker is caught disclosing privileged information to anyone. After this ask anybody how rich you can get having this information before the guys who read economy sections in papers religiously and deal with the market everyday.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Setana Manoro

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:19:00 +0000

I have not been in the game long enough to remember the Scorpion incident or other such incidents - only for the last 9 months, but in those months i have read the forum, and other fan forums enough.
I learned about this incident through Ander's post on eve-pirate, and that article makes even more sense now then it did when i read it the first time.

BoB have been accused of having devs in they're backyard ... who cares, they are probably in most major alliances. BoB have denied it when they knew it was true ... that sucks because now they lose credibility.
They are arguably the most succesfull alliance in the game and when a corp that belongs to this alliance is found to harbor 5 chars played by devs one of whom had a position of leadership, then it is not ok anymore. Because like it was said "devs are human too", yes they are human, that right there is a huge conflict of interests. You can't maintain all the time a cool head in a game where you cannot save, where everything you do now affects what happens to you tomorrow. Stupid things or getting annoyed over a game is bound to happen, and when you have acces to certain info it is hard not to give yourself or you're close friends help.
I don't want to see devs lose they're positions in 0.0 alliances because EVE is in a continous state of Beta testing and that would make matters even worse, but damnit, t20 told them that he was a dev, that fact was known by the alliance leaders. So now you know there was a little fire in the tabloid like posts of Mr.K.
Then you look at the reply's between them, regarding before knowledge of game events, of inside info, of a lot of things that could give the most powerfull alliance in the game even more advantages.
Now you wonder how much of it is true, sure CCP can't verify the authenticity of what K. sent them, as the BoB forum is probably privately owned domain, but they can verify how the events were conducted, who has the bpo's and if the bpo's were generated out of thin air.
I can't feel sorry for the dev in question, it was you're mistake to make and someone actually posted a threat you made on this here forum along the lines of "will be on my characters ****list till the day i die".
All of these put together put up against the response Kieron gave stinks to high-heaven. You didn't adress the most important issues here ... most of the ppl don't care if the dev in question lost his chars and friends, booohooohooo cry me a river, he made a mistake and he should accept the consequences. The issue is wether the game is rigged or not because that affects you're credibility CCP a lot, more then maybe you have realised so far Kieron.
I don't want to see the dev who misbehaved get fired as it was just a mistake in a game, who can affect his life, but i do want to see that there are in-game repercusions if and when such allegations are proven especially on those that benefited from dev-assistance if this is proven. So far you're answer Kieron is around of ideea "move along, nothing to see here" which blows for most of the player-base.

I will not leave this game, but untill there is a clear answer from CCP, i can't recommend it to my friends.
PS: Sorry for my lack of grammar skills, English is not exactly my first language. :)
PPS: BoB trolls, you do know that the bob-hate generated in this thread is a direct result of you're snotty attitude toward other players, right ?
Don't be so surprised that many hate you're guts.
--------------------------------------------------

Always look on the bright side of life. :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:18:00 +0000

I still find it mighty interesting that we're 21 pages into this thread, and still no responses from CCP to any of the questions that were raised during the 21 pages. Most notably:

1) what about those BPO's, were they gotten legally? If so, then about 15 pages of this thread have effectively been nullified because an answer was given.

2) Why is it that the K. has been banned, but the people who posted his personal information are still merrily around on these forums? Why is it that any mention of his name, or his site, will either result in a deleted post or a forum ban? All that does is reinforce the idea that you (CCP) have something to cover up.

I've played EVE since beta, and in all that time I thought I finally stumbled across one game and one game company that would rise above the heavy-handed moderation, and the totally useless tripe bleated forth by their respective community representatives...

Guess I was wrong. Pity.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tassadar Beta

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:17:00 +0000

The mere fact you are allowed (on this forum) to say some of the things you are about CCP only shows how open CCP is. Simply because CCP didn't string someone up and parade them in front of the players, is not proof of CCP hiding something.

CCP made this game and their employees play it and probably love it and feel more passionate about it than us. I have faith if a CCP employee did something wrong CCP would catch him. The game is better for them playing it in my opinion.

This forum thread reeks of people who want nothing more than to ***** about CCP and flame them. There are lots of assumptions here and no proof other than what can be boiled down as "Devs and GMs player the game they must cheat".

A developer gave a corporation a couple of tech2 BPOs...wow...seriously...wow, I mean omg, its not like other players havent done this. In BIG and I bet in other corporations members help out the corp and donate the BPs to the corporation. Generally players help their corporations and their friends.

To say CCP guys should stop playing the game they love is abysmal, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for saying it. If they didnt play the game you wouldn't be enjoying it now.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:17:00 +0000

Originally by: j0sephine
He's been also about the only one to openly (in another thread on this forum) talk how it is to be a dev who plays the game on regular account... i.e. the only person who can be seen as giving some of that "transparency" people scream for. What he gets for that transparency? His own quotes thrown back at him as "evidence of guilt". Yeah, that kind of reaction will work swimmingly in convincing CCP to be more transparent with their playerbase.

"Out me and I'll **** you up" isn't quite what I had in mind, but clearly YMMV.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Razor Jaxx

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos
Quote:
I'm afraid the only way some of you want this "resolved" is to have a few scapegoats fired, vilified, crucified, lapidated, and finally fed to the lions in front of a manic crowd.

"Scapegoats" imply on victimizing the innocent to save face. No that is not what we want. It is ridiculously obvious that employees disclosed their identities and consequently privileged information to gain status in their alliances. This was confirmed by CCP when they said they deleted such characters.

We want those people who are [n]not[/n] innocent in any way to be fired, crucified, burned and have their heads put on spikes in public events as an example to those that think about doing it again.

I used the term knowingly, because it is exactly what it is about, until actual evidence surfaces to prove that, as you put it "employees disclosed their identities and consequently privileged information to gain status in their alliances". Of course, it is unfathomable to think that these individuals might have achieved their status and positions on merit alone, right?

And CCP never confirmed any of what you say, they simply followed their long-standing policy of canning employee-owned player accounts when their affiliation to CCP becomes public knowledge, nothing more, nothing less.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Smagd

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Goran
For the haters

Am I paranoid or schizophrenic when I suspect that any checkbox you check gives an additional 4% of score, never mind what the actual answer?

I'm pretty sure it's easy enough for CCP to check for BPOs received past game mechanics (they did that with the Scorp GM), so I'm not worried about those. They'll be gone.

And Devs would have a few advantages, like the guy who religiously reads patch notes and verifies everything on Singularity would.

I'm not worried about that, it's fair enough.

Pity that disclosed Dev character have to go, that sucks - but over a longer time I reckon it's near impossible not to mess up and well, you can only hope noone rats you out.

But if people angle against a single alliance like that, I guess all hope is lost.

*shrug*

Family Tahar, of Clan Hadar, of Caravan of Namtz'Aar K'in

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by j0sephine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:13:00 +0000

"Can a dev/anyone confirm that it was t20 who designed/implemented the t2 BPO lottery?"

If i recall correctly, the mechanics and implementation of tech.2 lottery was up to Papa Smurf. There should be thread in Game Development section dealing with the original introduction on test server and subsequent tweaks.

Papa Smurf was at that time in charge of agents/mission systems which is why he was developing it. He was later either promoted or moved to focus on server-side game performance, or it was his main area of specialty since from the start and he was taking care of agent systems on the side because he's self-admitted 'carebear' who strongly dislikes the concept of non-consentual PvP, if not PvP in general. You can sometimes see "PvP is griefing" quote going in sigs and such, he was the one who coined it. Clearly, the very kind of developer who would rig tech.2 lottery to benefit large PvP alliance set out to conquer all of EVE.

Frankly, it's sad to see people hell-bent on raking t20 over the coals in this thread. He's perhaps most dedicated out of them all to provide community on the whole with extra info -- these 3rd party websites with item browsers, jump planners, manufacturing tables etc? They work based on data dumps provided by none but t20. He's been also about the only one to openly (in another thread on this forum) talk how it is to be a dev who plays the game on regular account... i.e. the only person who can be seen as giving some of that "transparency" people scream for. What he gets for that transparency? His own quotes thrown back at him as "evidence of guilt". Yeah, that kind of reaction will work swimmingly in convincing CCP to be more transparent with their playerbase.

And all of you complaining "there's devs in BoB and we have none, unfair advantage!11!one!" ... i don't know how many devs is in different alliances, but consider this: on one hand you have hysterical crowd operating on inherent belief that "devs must be cheating because they're devs with insider knowledge" and ranting about it ad nauseam... and on the other hand you have a group that says "if you are a dev, we couldn't care less". Now maybe ask yourself: if you were a dev... would you really like to spend your play time with the former group, and have to listen day in day out in their corp chat and on their forum how you and other CCP employees are nothing but cheats, hacks and rigging the game against them..?

Maybe the "problem" is just as much with your own attitude as you think it's with CCP's... :|

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:09:00 +0000

Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 19:08:30

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
I see where this is going.

"Let's post absolutely nothing, allow the community to flame for 24 hrs then close topic."

We knew that from the first post:

Originally by: kieron
we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations

That's polispeak for "**** off".

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Eolais

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:08:00 +0000

I really don't mind devs playing the game they make. But any intelligent human being cannot deny their own need to create. And in that manner, you wield a certain degree of power. Now, ideally there's no reason not to enjoy the fruits of your labors, because it's a natural thing. But human beings who wield a certain degree of power of their creation can easily fall victim to abusing this power. It can range from occasional indulgences of guilty pleasures, to developing a full-blown god complex.

I see the negative impacts of power correlating with the amount of desire/obsession with the subject at hand. To be less vague--when the game and its environment become more important than the need to keep it balanced, that's when you lose an objective dev.

When your "corp mates" become more important than the average user in the world you help create, that's when you lose an objective dev.

When your interests for personal exploitation become more important than doing what's in the job description (and finally fixing the damn drone bugs), that's when you lose an objective dev.

Though in reality it is harder to draw the line, it seems to me it's very clear in this instance where the line should be drawn--and that involves devs being intimately involved in corps. Granted, lots of devs might get by without even thinking about abusing their power--and they might even do a fantastic job at separating work and play--but when evidence like this begins to pile up, you can only expect one thing from paying customers: suspicion. And you just add fuel to the fire when you post a vague conclusion thread that looks like it was written by a team of PR laywers, and then start censoring entire blocks of posts just because it comes from an outside source. I know commercial companies lie to their customers all the time, but they still always try to make their customers feel like their investments are safe. Even if you may not be lying, you sure are not making us feel any better about what quality of service we receive.

Just sayin'.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Susan Acid

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:08:00 +0000

How did all this start?I know Kugu hacked the RKK forums and Bob said it was all fake...... then Molle posted Kugus rl name and tried to get him sacked.......and then we arrive here.What happened in between? I'm just looking for the whole 'cause and effect' thing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:08:00 +0000

Quote:
I'm afraid the only way some of you want this "resolved" is to have a few scapegoats fired, vilified, crucified, lapidated, and finally fed to the lions in front of a manic crowd.

"Scapegoats" imply on victimizing the innocent to save face. No that is not what we want. It is ridiculously obvious that employees disclosed their identities and consequently privileged information to gain status in their alliances. This was confirmed by CCP when they said they deleted such characters.

We want those people who are [n]not[/n] innocent in any way to be fired, crucified, burned and have their heads put on spikes in public events as an example to those that think about doing it again.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Razor Jaxx

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Sentinel Eeex

5. How did the dev get so many T2 BPOs? Won on lottery? Why are devs allowed to get that amount of BPOs on lottery? Did he buy it with cash? Ok then, did you check how did he get that cash? Etc, etc?

Kieron mentioned auditing said accounts. If anything unusual had turned up, he would have said so. I've seen people acquire more or better T2 BPO's, so why wouldn't his be legit just because he also happens to be a dev?

Quote:

6. Why did it take so long to do anything about ASCN 'private' stuff being available on these forums, yet removal of BoB 'private' stuff was swift, on these same forums? Actually, ASCN private stuff might still be available on these forums, I just assume CCP/ISD removed it, same as they removed BoB stuff.

Maybe it had nothing to do with being ASCN or BoB, but got modded because it contained CCP-related information?

Quote:

CCP has to understand that ****load of people just DON'T CARE if it was BoB, ASCN, D2, ISD, IMF, CIA, ... All we care is to know what happened, and what steps CCP is taking to prevent it from happening again. And if nothing at all happened, and we all dreamt reading those forum/chat/whatever logs (they are fake, after all :) - simply say so.

Agree on the prevention bit, although it remains to be seen if anything fishy actually happened. And those logs could still be (and probably are) real, their informative value is actually very poor, and the suggested "evidence" far from obvious. Have you read them?

Quote:

I am not paying 15$ so that your developers can enjoy the game or have fun - I am paying 15$ so that *I* can have fun.

Agree, but I'd rather play a game where the designers have fun themselves as well, because it'd be the assurance of better quality.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Razor Jaxx

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:59:00 +0000

Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
I bet investigation took 30 minutes, and it took 2 weeks to write this "report" on investigation. Good job on writing report that says nothing, and avoids answering any real questions.

I think all parties agree that the OP is lacking, in clarity and finality.

Quote:

1. Is is true that you banned Kugutsumen (and his accounts)? I was the first one to whine about him posting private information (from other forums, etc), yet I am stunned now to see him banned, while other people who were doing same thing are still able to post on these forums, and play the game. What the ****? Do you have any idea how that makes you look?

Unless you're a CCP mod, you're not anymore privy than the rest of us to anything he may have done to get himself banned - maybe he repeatedly ignored requests by CCP to stop posting information regarding CCP employees, for example? Also, who in your opinion was "doing the same thing" and is still able to play & post? Just curious.

Quote:

2. I guess Kugutsumen got banned because he (seemingly) hacked forums. Yet noone was ever banned for 'social engineering'. Are people that dumb not to understand that 'social engineering' is *not* a legal thing? As is not 'shoulder surfing' (or 'shoulder sniffing', as some call it), or many other things. So why do we see one person banned (and we don't really know why), while many other who did similar things are still in game?

See above for the ban stuff. As for the "social engineering" bit, I can't say I'm a big fan of meta-gaming myself, but I still see a difference between getting a character into a corporation in-game and gaining eventual insider information, and using out-of-game technical hacks to access the same information. How long would it have taken Kugutsumen to attain the level of trust required to access the RKK director forums using only in-game posturing? If you can honestly answer this, you can also answer your own question.

Quote:

3. Why dev's accounts weren't removed as soon as he revealed his identity to BoB? I mean, it's ok if BoB higher-ups know he's a dev, but when we all got to know that, then it's time to remove the account(s)? So sweet.

Perhaps because CCP was unaware that the dev's identity had been revealed until it became public knowledge?

Quote:

4. Were higher-ups at CCP involved in this? Were they some of the members who were mentioned on those forums posts, convos, etc? I mean, if it was [insert favourite well known CCP employee here], for example, of course we'll never see this situation resolved.

Why? I trust CCP to conduct in-house cleaning. The problem is, is there really something worth cleaning? I'm afraid the only way some of you want this "resolved" is to have a few scapegoats fired, vilified, crucified, lapidated, and finally fed to the lions in front of a manic crowd.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:56:00 +0000

Edited by: Berious on 07/02/2007 18:53:14

Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos

The most important thing is to create a mechanism to avoid it from ever happening again.

I'm glad someone posted that, nail on the head! This tempest is transitory and I don't particularly care what if any actions are taken against individuals now, but CCP should wise up and use this opportunity to put clear and transparent policies in place to avoid even the appearance of scandal in the future or the stink of corruption will follow this game around. They've had a couple of good opportunities in the past and sadly didn't change much that we could see. I really don't want this to keep cropping up for the good of the game and everyone's enjoyment.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Manus Ghostface

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
I see where this is going.

"Let's post absolutely nothing, allow the community to flame for 24 hrs then close topic."

QFMFT.

Entire handling of this has left a very sour taste in my mouth. I full understand how CCP handles infractions of customers, and wouldn't expect a blow by blow breakdown of how they looked into the DBP/Judicator part, or if they decided to curbstomp SirMolle for posting personal information (they may have issued a warning, but it wouldn't be public knowledge, in line with their past policy).

What does need more detail, is what is told to us regarding the developers who broke rules, allegations they were aware and ignored EULA violations, and how we can be assured that developers will not abuse their power in the future. I'm sure there is more going on internally in CCP HQ, but they really need to have more answers in this thread, and certainly should be answering some of the questions the follow on posters have asked for clarity on. If they can dedicated 4-5 mods to watch the thread (based on the names I see on the edits), then they can have a dev watch it and clarify points, or at the least acknowledge the concerns and state if Kieron will be adding additional information.

The precipice is looming, does CCP drive off or hit the brakes?

That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick.
- Lycurgus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shadowsword

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:47:00 +0000

All this drama is getting seriously stupid.

Everyone made it quite clear that we'd like more details, now we could as well cross our fingers and wait, because the only thing all this flaming and counter-flaming will do is get the topic locked, or convince CCP that whatever they say, they'll be flamed for it, and not answer anymore...
------------------------------------------
Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sentinel Eeex

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine

No ban, his chars got deleted because people discovered his ccp identity, not because he actually did something wrong.

It's the usual policy, and there's mroe devs affected then those in bob too afaik.

How do you know?

Are you a dev? Are you having conversations with a dev?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Itzena

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:45:00 +0000

Edited by: Itzena on 07/02/2007 18:42:33
Edited by: Itzena on 07/02/2007 18:41:42
So let me get this straight:

The hacker gets banned. Good on the whole, with two minor drawbacks (One: He's almost certainly back in game already. Two: What about all the other people who've hacked messageboards, TS, etc. Do they now get banned as well?) If CCP sticks with this precedent, though, it's on the whole a positive move.

CCP tries to smokescreen the rest. Bad. Very, very bad. Someone needed to get publically fired for this, and BoB needed to have all their ill-gotten gains (T2 BPOs, mothership from in-game event, etc) removed.

Overall: CCP must try harder if they want to stay in business.
--
I want my people to reclaim their rightful place in the galaxy... I want a rebirth of glory, a renaissance of power...
I want us to be what we used to be.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Elve Sorrow

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:38:00 +0000

I see where this is going.

"Let's post absolutely nothing, allow the community to flame for 24 hrs then close topic."

Stay out of my sig, it's not funny.
Thanks for proving my point.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:38:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine

Honestly, that's going way too far, and as Kieron stated CCP are not about to stop their devs from playing or limiting what they can do. So ...

And that is part of the problem. A dev, by nature, has more "power" than any other player in-game. Whether it be the ability to manipulate game mechanics, or advance information, they still have it.

So if someone "normal" gets 10 BPO's, sure, we say "whoa, lucky you!" and go on our way. If a dev-owned character gets 10 BPO's together, then either they were very lucky to get it, or they might've jiggled the system a bit. And you can't prove that they did, and can't prove they didn't.

That's the issue at hand; same with inside-info that gets out before it's supposed to (ISD in particular have had some trouble with that one) will give someone an unfair advantage, and whether the reward in the end is unlimited Ibises for all, or a mothership, it still stings.

Just my 2 cents.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by IlIlIlIlIlIlIl

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Cyberian Ragnos

The only way to avoid these from ever happening again would be by firing those idiots who abused their privileged rights.

Actually the other way it doesn't happen again is enough people are mad enough and cancel and it causes the game to shut down or be aquired by a different company that might have a clue how their customers expect to be treated.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by ph33rf4ct0ry

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:32:00 +0000

Originally by: Lin Dze
Originally by: Prydeless
20+ pages and still no reply to the questions.

Sweeping it all under the carpet ftw?

Takes more than 14 hours to come up with a few more paragraphs of meaningless nothing...

Not really there is 21 pages of nothing here in under 14 hrs

Member of the POST WITH YOUR MAIN SOCIETY

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyberian Ragnos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Ituralde
What a shame that a giant outcry from all the mediocrity in EVE can ruin a guy's gaming experience.

Absolutely disgusting.

A normal EVE character. That's all these dev players were. Normal characters with the powers of normal characters.

To do anything else, they would have to use their dev account, and any evidence of misconduct would be painfully obvious.

But since a bunch of people don't know how to fight and win a war, and won't blame their defeats on the superiority of the enemy or their own shortcoming, A certain number of EVE players - even if they are devs - got the shaft.

Proud of yourselves, Gents?

So tell me this, when you lose your next war, what are you going to blame it on now that the GM/DEV divine intervetion card has already been used up?

Disgusting...

Your arguments are completely ridiculous.

Devs and GMs are NOT normal characters in any way. They know too much and there is no damn way you, me or anyone else can tell what they can do or not with there privileged access and how detectable that is.

Even if by some miracle they couldn't act directly, they still can handle privileged information and create biased justifications to give priority to their favorites' petitions.

And unfortunatelly the GM/DEV card has not been used. As expected CCP did nothing to fix the problem. So chances are the problem will remain.

The most important thing is to create a mechanism to avoid it from ever happening again. Punishing BoB, taking their T2 bpos, or cancelling characters does not accomplish this. The only way to avoid these from ever happening again would be by firing those idiots who abused their privileged rights.

BoB or any other players have no obligation to make this game neutral. They play to win as we all. But the CCP employees DO have such obligation, and they failed it.

We want their heads in a silver plate as an example for those who think about ever doing it again. And don't come here saying that we are destroying their lives. We are not. They did themselves, by tampering with their jobs this way.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lin Dze

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Prydeless
20+ pages and still no reply to the questions.

Sweeping it all under the carpet ftw?

Takes more than 14 hours to come up with a few more paragraphs of meaningless nothing...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:25:00 +0000

20+ pages and still no reply to the questions.

Sweeping it all under the carpet ftw?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dennyreborn

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:23:00 +0000

I have a question it is on topic but not about this specific incident.

Does CCP keep a list of all playing DEVs GMs?
what exactly is Dev/GM interference?
Yes we all know spawning items and leaking event info is wrong.
But for instance if your a playing GM are you forbidden to answer petitions by corp Alliance mates? Or is that forbidden to prevetn conflict of interest?

Any chance we can see the exact policy/ compilation of policies in regards to GM/Dev interferance?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gerome Doutrande

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:21:00 +0000

Stop this stupid witch hunt already. What a disgrace.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Goran

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Kurj Valdoria
anyone threatening to quit the game over this I have one question.......can I have your stuff?

Dodgy request
They may turn out to be a Dev - and if you get their stuff Eve will be engulfed in another dramabomb.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kurj Valdoria

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:14:00 +0000

anyone threatening to quit the game over this I have one question.......can I have your stuff?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Goran

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:13:00 +0000

For the haters

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sentinel Eeex

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:12:00 +0000

I bet investigation took 30 minutes, and it took 2 weeks to write this "report" on investigation. Good job on writing report that says nothing, and avoids answering any real questions.

1. Is is true that you banned Kugutsumen (and his accounts)? I was the first one to whine about him posting private information (from other forums, etc), yet I am stunned now to see him banned, while other people who were doing same thing are still able to post on these forums, and play the game. What the ****? Do you have any idea how that makes you look?

2. I guess Kugutsumen got banned because he (seemingly) hacked forums. Yet noone was ever banned for 'social engineering'. Are people that dumb not to understand that 'social engineering' is *not* a legal thing? As is not 'shoulder surfing' (or 'shoulder sniffing', as some call it), or many other things. So why do we see one person banned (and we don't really know why), while many other who did similar things are still in game?

3. Why dev's accounts weren't removed as soon as he revealed his identity to BoB? I mean, it's ok if BoB higher-ups know he's a dev, but when we all got to know that, then it's time to remove the account(s)? So sweet.

4. Were higher-ups at CCP involved in this? Were they some of the members who were mentioned on those forums posts, convos, etc? I mean, if it was [insert favourite well known CCP employee here], for example, of course we'll never see this situation resolved.

5. How did the dev get so many T2 BPOs? Won on lottery? Why are devs allowed to get that amount of BPOs on lottery? Did he buy it with cash? Ok then, did you check how did he get that cash? Etc, etc?

6. Why did it take so long to do anything about ASCN 'private' stuff being available on these forums, yet removal of BoB 'private' stuff was swift, on these same forums? Actually, ASCN private stuff might still be available on these forums, I just assume CCP/ISD removed it, same as they removed BoB stuff.

CCP has to understand that ****load of people just DON'T CARE if it was BoB, ASCN, D2, ISD, IMF, CIA, ... All we care is to know what happened, and what steps CCP is taking to prevent it from happening again. And if nothing at all happened, and we all dreamt reading those forum/chat/whatever logs (they are fake, after all :) - simply say so.

I am not paying 15$ so that your developers can enjoy the game or have fun - I am paying 15$ so that *I* can have fun.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Heptameron

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:08:00 +0000

yadda yadda yup i'm a self confessed BoB hater, i'll keep taking the pills, but more for nicking some of my ex alliance mates than anything else (Maedden i'm comin for youuuuu!!!)

Just a wee flame to the peeps crying about 3 years playing down the drain for the guilty parties etc... uhuh, yup /rename uberchar to superuberchar /+27squillionisk +49t2shinybpos

Anyways as for the topic in question - I think forget the focus on BoB tbh (it's ok, i'll get the gf to clean out my dirty mouth and spank me silly later...), and focus on what for me is the bigger issue. If it's proven that a GM is guilty of using his powers to enhance his own gaming experience then he should be fired full stop. It's dishonesty and against their own rules. There has to be a bucketload of trust between us as customers and an almost virtual, faceless group of people that manage our gaming experience.

There HAS to be an inherent trust that the gameplay is as unbiased as technically possible. But when any form of impropriety is uncovered then that same group must also be seen to be dealing with it to keep that trust intact and SHOW that they are dealing with it in the right way to the public that pay for their services.

It's clear (and not just because of this incident, if their was one of course :p) that the processes surrounding GM's having player accounts is flawed. But just look at corp directors and ceo's who have access to all the goodies in the candy store. How many can actually say they haven't grabbed a quick bit of t2 kit to drop on a ship in a rush and not paid the corp for it? Not many i would bet. Power corrupts people, I know I could never be a GM, too damned tempting, 'hmmm just whack up my armor hit points by 500k or so... now shoot me mr bobbit!!! muhahahahaha'

They need to be more closely monitored and restricted to where and what they can do but without impinging on their ability to just enjoy playing with something they have created.

But heres a radical solution. Well we could introduce some roleplaying (omg nooooooo not roleplaying in an MMORPG!!!)and and while i'm on a role (pun intended) here, why not let the GM's have their own corp with their uber ships (not too uber or bobbits will never 'win') and actually have some role play pvp/activities??? Dudes (and dudettes *bow*), it's what I miss about this game, the lack of day to day general storylines and RP PvP opportunities, this would let the GM's have their playing experience, allow them to use uber powers, protect the general populace from abuse and make me a happy bunny (and conversely my gf, if im happy she's happy *wink*).

I dunno, just a post work ramble
----------------------------------------------
We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Yggdrassil

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:06:00 +0000

I haven't read all the info provided by kugo-something, but...

I don't see where all the BOB accusations comes from. If, (and thats a big IF) a dev/gm has cheated, then it's that particular dev/gm that has cheated, NOT BOB as a corp.

If all that's happened is that the gm/dev has done is to willingly reveal his "true" identity, that gm/dev deserves a banstick.

The same applies if that particular gm/dev has used his special powers to help BOB in any ways, wether with secret info or any other special commands they got access to.

There IS a few questions that I believe they should consider though:

1. Should CCP staffs chars be allowed to hold leading positions in any corp/alliance?
2. Should CCP staffs chars be allowed to win T2 bpo's?
3. If their char is somehow identified as CCP staff char, should they report it to senior staff? Should their char perhaps be "modified" in such circumstanses?
4. Should T2 bpo's won by CCP staff chars be withdrawn (if in their or their corps possession still)
5. Someone wrote earlier that CCP staff chars should not have to police their own corp regarding cheats/exploits etc etc. This is completely wrong imo. Should they make a rule about any ban'able offenses they become aware of, should imidiately be reported to another GM?

I am by far any fan of BOB - but I don't believe they deserve the bashing they're getting now on the forums.

Yggdrassil
Yggdrassil

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FGxHalsey

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:05:00 +0000

My advice to the BoB leadership is the same. Avoid the appearance of impropriety.

There have been a number of issues in the past that most people who fight against BoB in game will attest to. There have been past cases of exploiting using modules to lag people out, shooting through POS shields, getting past CONCORD reprisals, threats to DDoS sites from some members to in-game enemies (and it actually happening), etc.

I believe that the vast majority of the BoB membership is completely innocent of cheating and would be offended at the accusations (since they don't cheat). Where the problem comes in is when a small minority of BoB members do cheat or do something that gives that appearence. In most games it is very difficult to tell the difference between a very skilled player and someone who uses cheats in a way to get a slight advantage.

I must admit that I have no idea of how to restore BoB's image because frankly most of the leadership's credibility have been shot. Not only were their dev's in BoB but the leadership knew and lied about it. Not only did they lie, but they made fun of people who observed and reported the truth.

The fact that the BoB leadership knew, did nothing about it, lied, and are one of the most powerful groups in game automatically makes it look like that position was gained illigitimately. I have no recommendations other than to always be honest, forthcoming, and to avoid the appearance of impropriety in the future.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shrivven

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:05:00 +0000

My first and only post to this "exponential" topic :

1. I want devs in the game in different roles / regions / organisations / playstyles - it has to be good feedback on the experience and help the game, BUT it has to be done in a way that does not give disproportionate influence to their chars, eg :-

Fleet participants = ok ; Fleet command = not ok
Station factory rat (others BP's) = ok ; Tech 2 BPO owner = not ok
Corp member = ok ; Corp CEO = not ok

2. The pointless circular debates between opposing camps should stop. You guys will never agree - so agree to disagree and stop the growth in this thread. The risk is that CCP will never see any of the sane / valid comments in this thread through all the "obfuscation"

3. Kieron - please either heed the calls and elaborate on the OP, or make one final statement e.g. The matter is closed to your satisfaction : there are no remaining in-game characters or assets that have been inappropriately obtained. I for one at least would be happy to see either.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ituralde

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Ituralde
What a shame that a giant outcry from all the mediocrity in EVE can ruin a guy's gaming experience.

Absolutely disgusting.

A normal EVE character. That's all these dev players were. Normal characters with the powers of normal characters.

To do anything else, they would have to use their dev account, and any evidence of misconduct would be painfully obvious.

But since a bunch of people don't know how to fight and win a war, and won't blame their defeats on the superiority of the enemy or their own shortcoming, A certain number of EVE players - even if they are devs - got the shaft.

Proud of yourselves, Gents?

So tell me this, when you lose your next war, what are you going to blame it on now that the GM/DEV divine intervetion card has already been used up?

Disgusting...

I can see someone has been lining your wallet!

Yes, of course, I have my pet GMs transport me across EVE so I can use my Hax Capital Miner beam IIs and strip belts of Arkonor in Jove space...

Which is of course why my wallet sits at an oh-so-grand 35 mil
_____________________________
Fear is the mind-killer.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Haakelen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:03:00 +0000

I do not think anyone can honestly tell me that they believe every single BoB member is guilty or suspect in this situation. Either 100% or 99.8% of BoB's members have nothing or very little to do with this. I'd bet if this happened, the perpetrators would want to keep their activities as quiet as possible, from as many people as possible.

The presence of devs could work against them this way, as the devs could report their transgression. I would bet that upper level BoB people are more angry about this than any of us can be, because they're the ones who have to be held to account.

That said, how about just a hint of transparency, CCP? Start slow, take smalls steps if you must but please tell us something more, anything, that shows you even care.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Amiable Quinn

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Ituralde

How stupid do you people get?

Learn to win a war ingame, and quit your bloody whining on the forums because you suck.

I know you may find it hard to believe but this debate has nothing to do with folks "sucking." It has everything to do with our confidence in the game. Your bizarre, angry rants just highlight this point, especially because Star Fraction is one of the Alliances Devs have admitted to being members of.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Ituralde
What a shame that a giant outcry from all the mediocrity in EVE can ruin a guy's gaming experience.

Absolutely disgusting.

A normal EVE character. That's all these dev players were. Normal characters with the powers of normal characters.

To do anything else, they would have to use their dev account, and any evidence of misconduct would be painfully obvious.

But since a bunch of people don't know how to fight and win a war, and won't blame their defeats on the superiority of the enemy or their own shortcoming, A certain number of EVE players - even if they are devs - got the shaft.

Proud of yourselves, Gents?

So tell me this, when you lose your next war, what are you going to blame it on now that the GM/DEV divine intervetion card has already been used up?

Disgusting...

I can see someone has been lining your wallet!

Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ituralde

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:59:00 +0000

Edited by: Ituralde on 07/02/2007 17:57:24

Originally by: FGxHalsey

3. Do something to redistribute/reseed those tech 2 BPO's. (Note this may not be fair to BoB and the tech 2 bpo's may have been given out fairly but CCP's reputation is more important for the health of the game and the confidance of their customers.)

Yes, since Devs spoon-fed t2 BPOs only to their favorites, there was no luck or hard work to make ISK for the purchases...

How stupid do you people get?

Learn to win a war ingame, and quit your bloody whining on the forums because you suck. All you are really asking is "rebalance so I have chance of an ISK printer/win button and my enemies don't".

Thankfully I don't think anyone in CCP is stupid enough to listen to whining like this.

and Re: the 'did you read' comment, I might mention that there are multiple other t2 producers outside of BOB with similar sized portfolios that got them perfectly legitimately - why is it that becuase its suddenly Bob that has a t2 bpo that it must be spawned by a dev?

Seriously, grow up.
_____________________________
Fear is the mind-killer.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Milkminer

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:59:00 +0000
Edited by: Milkminer on 07/02/2007 17:56:19
I beleive, that from a trust point of view as well as a need to try put as much of a lid on this as possible there needs to be some alittle more information released. A better breakdown would be nice with points etc thats easy to read/understand (we are a multi-cultural community after all).

I hope this isnt the last we hear of this though I must say. We need to know that our work invested in this "game" isnt going to waste.

Offer up a lamb for good sport
Originally by: John Moscroft
Goons are a renewable resource. There are no recruitment problems.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinze

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Ituralde
What a shame that a giant outcry from all the mediocrity in EVE can ruin a guy's gaming experience.

Absolutely disgusting.

A normal EVE character. That's all these dev players were. Normal characters with the powers of normal characters.

To do anything else, they would have to use their dev account, and any evidence of misconduct would be painfully obvious.

But since a bunch of people don't know how to fight and win a war, and won't blame their defeats on the superiority of the enemy or their own shortcoming, A certain number of EVE players - even if they are devs - got the shaft.

Proud of yourselves, Gents?

So tell me this, when you lose your next war, what are you going to blame it on now that the GM/DEV divine intervetion card has already been used up?

Disgusting...

Did you even read the first page of this thread. We're not angry about the devs being in BoB. We're angry about the T2 BPOs that were given to BoB under questionable circumstances. This was never about "ruining someones life" or whatever you guys keep misinterpreting it as. It was about finding out whether or not those T2 BPOs were legitimate, or if Band Of Brothers got free handouts from a developer of the game.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by BobGhengisKhan

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:57:00 +0000

Originally by: XirtamVotf
What have I aske BObghengis that hasnt been absolutely a legitimate question ?

I remember you personnaly complaing of Evolution back in day before they were BOB, using those mods to crash you in battle and mining for your ship afterwards.

Do you also forget those scenarios? as well as the rest of the players that complained?

please

That's what we call making up bull **** so we don't have to admit our own short comings. It's always been easier for you to blame someone/something other than yourself for failure.

And you're doing it again right now.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ituralde

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:54:00 +0000
What a shame that a giant outcry from all the mediocrity in EVE can ruin a guy's gaming experience.

Absolutely disgusting.

A normal EVE character. That's all these dev players were. Normal characters with the powers of normal characters.

To do anything else, they would have to use their dev account, and any evidence of misconduct would be painfully obvious.

But since a bunch of people don't know how to fight and win a war, and won't blame their defeats on the superiority of the enemy or their own shortcoming, A certain number of EVE players - even if they are devs - got the shaft.

Proud of yourselves, Gents?

So tell me this, when you lose your next war, what are you going to blame it on now that the GM/DEV divine intervetion card has already been used up?

Disgusting...
_____________________________
Fear is the mind-killer.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Wizzkidy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Widebrant
If t20 thought that BOB was worth giving ten T2 BPOs, what other gifts did he bring them -- and what will he give them in the future?

CCP employees are not meant to take sides in the game, it opens up a whole crate of cans of worms. A director-level position in a major alliance is completely incompatible with being a creator of a world that is supposed to be a sandbox open for the players to shape.

I can only agree with this although we don't know that T20 spawned these items, he could of got 10 BPO's through the lottery or bought them after all

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Widebrant

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:49:00 +0000
If t20 thought that BOB was worth giving ten T2 BPOs, what other gifts did he bring them -- and what will he give them in the future?

CCP employees are not meant to take sides in the game, it opens up a whole crate of cans of worms. A director-level position in a major alliance is completely incompatible with being a creator of a world that is supposed to be a sandbox open for the players to shape.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by XirtamVotf

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:46:00 +0000
What have I aske BObghengis that hasnt been absolutely a legitimate question ?

I remember you personnaly complaing of Evolution back in day before they were BOB, using those mods to crash you in battle and mining for your ship afterwards.

Do you also forget those scenarios? as well as the rest of the players that complained?

please

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FGxHalsey

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:46:00 +0000

Quote:
avoid the appearance of impropriety

I think there is wisdom in this. Whether or not anything has actually occured, CCP needs to take a position that:
1. Ensures justice for misconduct is handed out.
2. Shows their neutrality to player factions is maintained.
3. Shows that the integrity of the game is not complomised.

We have a number of questions that do need to be addressed in order for CCP to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
a) The tech 2 BPO issue needs to be addressed. The mere fact that a developer player character handed a number of tech 2 BPO's to their alliance when most people have alot of difficulty aquiring 1 of those items is a problem. It does not matter whether these BPO's were leagally or illegally obtained because it sure looks bad.
b) The ebay character buying issue needs to be addressed. CCP has maintained a standard that ebayed accounts will be banned. If the issue is not addressed, it will encourage further sold account issues and will give the appearance that CCP shows favoritism.
c) The role of developer player characters in game politics needs to be addressed. I think anyone with a reasonable view sees the need for developers to play their own game. The problem comes in when developers are allowed to obtain high ranking positions in the most influential groups in the game.
A developer was alleged to not only be in BoB, one of the largest and most influental alliances in the game, but they were given leadership positions in that alliance and command over its capital fleet. While this may or may not have been wrong, it sure looks like a conflict of interest when said developers/GM's need to resolve in-game issues regarding the in-game enemies of BoB.
Again, this may not be wrong, but it appears that way.

I don't know specifically how to resore CCP's image of neutrality but here is what I recommend to start.
1. Eliminate the dev characters (done, good first step)
2. Ban the ebayed accounts.
3. Do something to redistribute/reseed those tech 2 BPO's. (Note this may not be fair to BoB and the tech 2 bpo's may have been given out fairly but CCP's reputation is more important for the health of the game and the confidance of their customers.)
4. Institute a policy regarding devs giving out high-end items and being involved in the leadership of alliances/coprs. Publically announce any policies.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Wizzkidy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:40:00 +0000
tbh CCP are probably just trying to figure out what to say to

1. Not stir up anymore trouble
2. To again not say anything that has any value to the discussion in question

because lets face it they never do come along and say "right here are the facts and what you want to hear" do they (even if that be no one cheated)

they just never do!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Bizarre

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Fred0
Originally by: Bizarre
GG community, you are looking like a bunch of asshats.

Nobody looks like a bunch of roses in this ordeal.

The hypocracy is strong though. One side is basing itself on a series of forumposts from a certain forum, while the other is basing itself on the word of its members.

I can't believe everyone is so interested in getting to the bottom of this, when you're coming up with such doubtful "proof". In my opinion, we need to let it rest and carry on playing this game.
*snip* Signature does not relate your in-game persona - Kreul Intentions

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Logan Feynman
He left BPOs. There was a finite and precise number of BPOs of each type given. Each BPO in game is accounted for. Especially those owned by dev characters. We can be pretty sure they were not "a bunch of marked bills", so the argument should just stop there.

How do you know that every BPO in the game is accounted for? How can you trust who is doing the accounting? When I make assumptions and allegations, I clearly state that I am doing so. You are assuming a lot of things to be true that, if the allegations are correct, we can no longer assume.

You are asking me to give someone who has the power to spawn arbitrary in-game items and perhaps even has SQL UPDATE access rights to the TQ database the benefit of the doubt in a case where he is alleged of improperly transferring assets.

To use my $10,000 in marked bills analogy one last time, if you were a defense lawyer and made that same argument to a judge as to why the case should be thrown out, you'd get laughed out of court.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lars Erlkonig

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Logan Feynman
Originally by: Lars Erlkonig
So far I have yet to see an action by which CCP has ameliorated the problems and issues of the player base regarding the initial and resulting complaints.

And if you don't?

How long must issues like this go on. I want to recommend EVE to my friends, because it is an enjoyable game, but if the playing field isn't going to be level, why should I. Instead it becomes: "There's a great game I play and that I'd like to show you, but right now it's broken because the company that runs it has no care if their employees or players cheat. So make sure to give them your credit card info and B-day when you sign up."

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Maze La'Zie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Omega Bloodstone
Edited by: Omega Bloodstone on 07/02/2007 17:32:48
20 freaking pages, read about 10. Has CCP commented on the alledged BPO's in this thread yet? If not, then clearly the player base knows the answer Silence is a golden saint when trying to learn some things and silence speaks louder then one might imagine.

Please CCP, if you have not commented yet, please advise to the playerbase the truth, fix the issue, and get back to making the game fun and EQUAL to all.

We appriciate your efforts, but at least update us on anything you might have learned thus far in regards to the BPO's.

Nope. No official comments other than the OP.
___________________
Chief Scientific Officer
Technology La'Zie
Author of The End

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Omega Bloodstone

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:35:00 +0000
Edited by: Omega Bloodstone on 07/02/2007 17:32:48
20 freaking pages, read about 10. Has CCP commented on the alledged BPO's in this thread yet? If not, then clearly the player base knows the answer Silence is a golden saint when trying to learn some things and silence speaks louder then one might imagine.

Please CCP, if you have not commented yet, please advise to the playerbase the truth, fix the issue, and get back to making the game fun and EQUAL to all.

We appriciate your efforts, but at least update us on anything you might have learned thus far in regards to the BPO's.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gibmundur

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:33:00 +0000
If you think everyone and his mother @ ccp is in bob you should just ctrl q

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Amiable Quinn

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:33:00 +0000
Edited by: Amiable Quinn on 07/02/2007 17:30:04
Originally by: Logan Feynman

He left BPOs. There was a finite and precise number of BPOs of each type given. Each BPO in game is accounted for. Especially those owned by dev characters. We can be pretty sure they were not "a bunch of marked bills", so the argument should just stop there.

Note highlighted text.

How do you know this Logan? CCP has not said word one about how they monitor Dev accounts (even after we have asked them to repeatedly).

Do you have access to some information you are not sharing?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fred0

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Bizarre
GG community, you are looking like a bunch of asshats.

Nobody looks like a bunch of roses in this ordeal.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tanis Bastar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Torshin
While most people in this thread believe that the response by Kieron isn't enough, they also believe that the information posted on a 3rd party site is true. So taking these two things into account, if Kieron came back later today and said that they have throughly investigated claims of T2 BPOs that were attained ILLEGALLY...and found no evidence of foul play would you stop flaming bob?

Does the word of Mr. K mean more to you then the word of CCP just because of your hate for BOB?

Well that is exactly the point--CCP has not said anything about the BPOs, or whether Devs cheated.

I don't hate BoB--in fact don't care about it at all--but CCP's post has not addressed any of the key issues. I think their approach is incredibly short-sighted and has only served to stoke suspicions which might well be completely unfounded...but I guess we'll never know...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by WKandinsky

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:30:00 +0000
I am troubled that any CCP employee is participating in any corp or major alliance in the game. If they feel the desire to play the game they should do so in a seperate alliance and keep their interactions to a minimum with the general players.

Removing the players has not fixed the situation. If BPO/BPC/Ships, etc., have been given they should also be removed from the corp/alliance they were given to. If the game is not allowed to evolve without manipulation, it is simply Mario Brothers with exploits to look for.

My opinions only and not those of the corp.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Bizarre

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:29:00 +0000
All you folks want BoB to prove they are not guilty. Yet, you all base yourself on a bunch of forumposts by Kugutsumen which you consider irrefuted proof.

GG community, you are looking like a bunch of asshats.
*snip* Signature does not relate your in-game persona - Kreul Intentions

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:28:00 +0000

Originally by: Lars Erlkonig
So far I have yet to see an action by which CCP has ameliorated the problems and issues of the player base regarding the initial and resulting complaints.

And if you don't?
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fred0

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:28:00 +0000

Originally by: BobGhengisKhan
This IS a witch hunt, xirt. And you have just become one of the sheep.

With the witches apparently hunting back or atleast stating they are and are gonna continue it :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lars Erlkonig

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:26:00 +0000
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Juvenal, Satire IV lines 347-8

As long as the temptation and ability to cheat exists, it will be taken--by devs, players, and people in general. It is the job of any well run corporation to formulate a system by which both the temptations and ability are tempered to render both a non-issue. So far I have yet to see an action by which CCP has ameliorated the problems and issues of the player base regarding the initial and resulting complaints.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Logan Feynman
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 07/02/2007 17:10:08
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
To be completely frank with you, I don't find it odd at all. That might be because I've only ever existed in one corp, which works on a communist model. Our members regularly kill officer spawns and hand over the modules for sale for corp benefit. In the last week we have been running at 100% corp tax and in the history of Evolution I would estimate that up to 50% of our BPOs have come from our members winning them in the lottery and presenting them to the corp. That's how we work.

So to reiterate, no I don't find it odd. Not everyone is motivated by personal gain in this game.

1. That sort of asset distribution is the exception, not the rule.

2. Whether or not the assets became personally-owned after the transfer, the assets were still valuable. If the assets were improperly acquired, the alliance in question would have received substantial improper advantage.

3. It has been alleged that there were payments made to alts of the dev in question by the alliance in question for use of the BPOs that were turned over. If these allegations are true, the dev in question continued to profit from the relationship with the alliance in question even after the relationship was formally dissolved.

As to 1) RKK is a communist corp. As to 2) and 3) ... that's a lot of ifs.

1. RKK may be a communist corp, but it has been alleged that payments were made to an alt of the dev in question anyway.

As for 2 and 3, you're right, that is a lot of "if"s. However, if you work for the US Mint and the police finds $10,000 in marked bills in your house, the police should start making allegations and asking questions that involve "if", shouldn't they?

The fact of the matter is that a dev with the power to create and destroy in-game assets was forced to leave an in-game alliance and allegedly transferred in-game assets to corp members before he left, assets which he allegedly continued to profit from after his separation with the corp.

Explain to me why exactly I should give the dev in question the benefit of the doubt.

He left BPOs. There was a finite and precise number of BPOs of each type given. Each BPO in game is accounted for. Especially those owned by dev characters. We can be pretty sure they were not "a bunch of marked bills", so the argument should just stop there.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fortior

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:25:00 +0000
Nope, not enough. OP said that actions have been taken for two different things - none of which are actually the most burning issue. I've almost always defended CCP, but I can't help but feel that the trust has been tarnished. The OP didn't really do anything to remedy this.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Andrus Delai

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:24:00 +0000

Originally by: FGxHalsey
Please address the blueprint issue.

Also may I suggest that CCP employees should be forbidden from becoming part of the leadership of any major corp or alliance in the game. I think that goes too far into removing their objectivity and tempts them too much to abuse their position.

I agree. These are the two issues that I am the most disturbed about. The BPO issue needs to be explained. How did the Dev get all of those BPOs so fast? And if they were obtained through questionable means, what will be done to rectify the situation?

And I'll repeat this for emphasis. No CCP employee should be allowed to become part of the leadership of a major corp or alliance. It would tempt abuse by some, but there is an even larger problem. CCP employess are likely to have information about the game to which the rest of the players have no access. In addition, they may also be privy to changes that are scheduled for the game long before they even make it to the patch notes. How can decisions not be affected by this knowledge?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by BobGhengisKhan

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:24:00 +0000

Originally by: XirtamVotf
Kcel what are you on about Sir Molle posted his name and where he worked,where he lived and was going to get him fired from his real life job.

These were numerous postings by Sir molle, so it isnt what you say, evidently you didnt read all of them.

To CCP and fact based, this has been going on for over a year, accusations about devs in BOB.
BOB totally denied that this was true, now later the IPs that BOB denied have removed those devs from the game that the player base KNEW were in BOB, but CCP didnt investigate at the onset of the allegations until Knug exposed it.

Everyone has stated proof or stfu stance, but how does the community prove its feelings of "if it walks like a duck , it is a duck".

So many instances can be directed towards the short comings , and I mean fact based instances, that it smacks of either ignorance, or they just dont care by CCP employees.

I truly love this game,it has been the most enjoyment I have ever had in a MMO.
So I dont think the community as a whole is on a witch hunt, I know Im not.
I just want to play the game with an even playing field, thats all.. anyone wants.

This is not the case .. the devs involved,and the players in BOB KNEW well before this came out that they were Devs, and CCP did nothing way back when.

Ask yourself a few questions before you accuse me of being a "digger" or a BOB hater.

How did Sir Molle obtain that critical information in the first place?
Why did a Dev in BOB and Dianabolic have open messages on their forums looking for the IP?

You can call this a witch hunt all you want, but it is NOT a witch hunt.

Either Sir Molle hacked this info, or the dev gave it to him.

More Proof was in the messages between Diana and Ishos and Lord Stone RKK part 4 that is hard evidence listing all the Ips that the players knew that they had multiple devs in their allaince

The community cant be spoon fed, they must read for themselves in Knugs posting of the BOB forum and see what there, and transpiring.
I dont think ANYTHING was altered or MADE up, for what end did Knug do this?
Maybe because other players in this game have taken advantage of the game and he was sick of it?

NO witch hunt gentlemen

This IS a witch hunt, xirt. And you have just become one of the sheep.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Logan Feynman
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 07/02/2007 17:10:08
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
To be completely frank with you, I don't find it odd at all. That might be because I've only ever existed in one corp, which works on a communist model. Our members regularly kill officer spawns and hand over the modules for sale for corp benefit. In the last week we have been running at 100% corp tax and in the history of Evolution I would estimate that up to 50% of our BPOs have come from our members winning them in the lottery and presenting them to the corp. That's how we work.

So to reiterate, no I don't find it odd. Not everyone is motivated by personal gain in this game.

1. That sort of asset distribution is the exception, not the rule.

2. Whether or not the assets became personally-owned after the transfer, the assets were still valuable. If the assets were improperly acquired, the alliance in question would have received substantial improper advantage.

3. It has been alleged that there were payments made to alts of the dev in question by the alliance in question for use of the BPOs that were turned over. If these allegations are true, the dev in question continued to profit from the relationship with the alliance in question even after the relationship was formally dissolved.

As to 1) RKK is a communist corp. As to 2) and 3) ... that's a lot of ifs.

1. RKK may be a communist corp, but it has been alleged that payments were made to an alt of the dev in question anyway.

As for 2 and 3, you're right, that is a lot of "if"s. However, if you work for the US Mint and the police finds $10,000 in marked bills in your house, the police should start making allegations and asking questions that involve "if", shouldn't they?

The fact of the matter is that a dev with the power to create and destroy in-game assets was forced to leave an in-game alliance and allegedly transferred in-game assets to corp members before he left, assets which he allegedly continued to profit from after his separation with the corp.

Explain to me why exactly I should give the dev in question the benefit of the doubt.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Secret Santa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:22:00 +0000
First off, I think that Eve benefits greatly from the fact that the Devs play it "after work" so to speak. I have played many games where the people working on the game did not care about the finished product, just sales. I believe CCP/Eve is different than other publishers in that respect. IMO this situation is different than someone being petitioned for exploiting and more detail is needed. As it stands I am not satisfied with the side-stepping of the issues that has taken place in the OP.

I think that it is time that the T2 BPO Lottery be abolished. It is very apparent that it does not work, and after this incident there will be very few Eve players that put any faith in it.

Kieron, we need more details than you have provided. A lot of us understand that making any kind of statement about something like this is no easy task. To be honest though, you have not really told us anything concrete. Your subscribers need to know specifics about what was or was not given to players by Devs, the actions taken against those GM/Devs (if required) and what is going to be done to fix the issue in the future.

I truly hope we get more than this. Knowing that the players have the full attention of CCP is what separates Eve and CCP from failures like SWG etc.

Will we get more information? Or will this thread simply continue until it becomes another Eve-O flame-fest?

IBTL?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starfinder

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:22:00 +0000
I for one am very disappointed with the response from CCP to the alleged dev misconduct. There is a complete lack of information and concern for the customers concerns. CCP seems to be more concerned that devs were outed, than with any charges of dev misconduct. After reading their response, I have no idea if they actually found misconduct, what specifically was done and what is being done in the future to prevent this type of potential abuse. TBH, it looks like they spent more time crafting their carefully worded statement for PR, than actually doing any serious investigation. I guess it is their game and they can do what they want to, but it is my money and I don't have to send it to them each month. I can't imagine why anyone who is not addicted would continue to play this game unless CCP provides a lot more details of the investigation and the countermeasures being put in place.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by XirtamVotf

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:20:00 +0000
Kcel what are you on about Sir Molle posted his name and where he worked,where he lived and was going to get him fired from his real life job.

These were numerous postings by Sir molle, so it isnt what you say, evidently you didnt read all of them.

To CCP and fact based, this has been going on for over a year, accusations about devs in BOB.
BOB totally denied that this was true, now later the IPs that BOB denied have removed those devs from the game that the player base KNEW were in BOB, but CCP didnt investigate at the onset of the allegations until Knug exposed it.

Everyone has stated proof or stfu stance, but how does the community prove its feelings of "if it walks like a duck , it is a duck".

So many instances can be directed towards the short comings , and I mean fact based instances, that it smacks of either ignorance, or they just dont care by CCP employees.

I truly love this game,it has been the most enjoyment I have ever had in a MMO.
So I dont think the community as a whole is on a witch hunt, I know Im not.
I just want to play the game with an even playing field, thats all.. anyone wants.

This is not the case .. the devs involved,and the players in BOB KNEW well before this came out that they were Devs, and CCP did nothing way back when.

Ask yourself a few questions before you accuse me of being a "digger" or a BOB hater.

How did Sir Molle obtain that critical information in the first place?
Why did a Dev in BOB and Dianabolic have open messages on their forums looking for the IP?

You can call this a witch hunt all you want, but it is NOT a witch hunt.

Either Sir Molle hacked this info, or the dev gave it to him.

More Proof was in the messages between Diana and Ishos and Lord Stone RKK part 4 that is hard evidence listing all the Ips that the players knew that they had multiple devs in their allaince

The community cant be spoon fed, they must read for themselves in Knugs posting of the BOB forum and see what there, and transpiring.
I dont think ANYTHING was altered or MADE up, for what end did Knug do this?
Maybe because other players in this game have taken advantage of the game and he was sick of it?

NO witch hunt gentlemen

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Vasiliyan

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:16:00 +0000
And what of the T2 BPOs?

Because of the closed way the "lottery" is run, there is no way to retrospectively discover whether those devs that had them had them fairly or not. They should not be transferred to the corps those devs have been forced to leave, that just perpetuates the injustice.

(CCP should have run the lottery in public with some sort of public random number generator, so it could be seen to be fair. It's too late for this now)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Frostbyt

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:16:00 +0000

Quote:
Posted - 2007.02.07 09:54:00 - [158] - Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I host a paying customer. My work is quite separate from my in-game associations, but think what you will :D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

So basicially, you're saying that ccp is capable of separating characters and responsability but he isn't? Do you see the problem?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Iva Soreass

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:15:00 +0000
You know when i first started this game i became aware of the anti bob brigade cause ppl i knew in game always talked **** about em and every one on the forums slagged em off, i won't deny i kinda leaned that way to for abit, untill i started reading into them myself, talked to a few of them and relised they were genuinely nice ppl who were just good at what they do. I soon relised its just a bad case of envy and have laughed tiredlessly at the anti bob brigade since, who try to pin and point everything at them.

BoB are guilty untill proven guilty! cause some one with NO credentials who hacks sh*t to stir up trouble said so!
BoB must of got free T2 bpo's cause some idiot said so ! how about PROOF OR STFU? hows that?

So what if a few devs were in BoB, what better place to try n test the game they are contiunly trying to improve then in the probley the best alliance in game.

Like some one else said, cause of this retard who hacked up **** now a dev//devs who are PEOPLE TO, who played the game they made and loved and built char's up for years now have nothing cause of this retard. I hope he never gets to play eve again, **** him and his retarded crusade.

-----------------------------------------------
"Your momma is so fat, BoB thought she was a region and took her!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyer

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Dr Smythe
Edited by: Dr Smythe on 07/02/2007 16:56:34
OMG you anti-BoB haters are all n00bs.

Seriously, I know we all put a lot of time and effort into this game but get real.
You are taking this way too seriously.

I hear calls for peoples jobs, I hear calls for CCP to leave well enough the game alone, I hear calls for people to have characters deleted and their possessions along with them.

I have not been in BoB long enough to know any of the particular parties but it does not even matter. It's the principle of the matter that counts and obviously most of you guys have 0 principles.

How dare you accuse people of things you have no clue about, how dare you ask for someones job when you have no idea of what their background is and who they are supporting. How dare you ask for characters to be deleted and possessions taken back.
What right have you? Do you think you have a right because you pay 15 per month or how ever many multiples there maybe? You have no right. I rent my house do I have a right to knock it down. Do I have a right to blow in the windows and doors and not replace them to my landlords standards. NO.

CCP is your landord while you play this game. It is not a democracy. Your views are valued but beyond that you are what makes CCP rich.

If you can not get these points in to your heads then you are way too involved in EVE and possibly need physciatric help.

Get real, get lives outside of EvE.

OMG get laid this weekend to relieve all of the stress that all of you seem to be suffering from.

That is the Doc's orders

You can read the forums with your head that far up your new masters a**e, omg!!
Wait this is part of the entrance exam isnt it, thats ok then.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:13:00 +0000
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 07/02/2007 17:10:08
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
To be completely frank with you, I don't find it odd at all. That might be because I've only ever existed in one corp, which works on a communist model. Our members regularly kill officer spawns and hand over the modules for sale for corp benefit. In the last week we have been running at 100% corp tax and in the history of Evolution I would estimate that up to 50% of our BPOs have come from our members winning them in the lottery and presenting them to the corp. That's how we work.

So to reiterate, no I don't find it odd. Not everyone is motivated by personal gain in this game.

1. That sort of asset distribution is the exception, not the rule.

2. Whether or not the assets became personally-owned after the transfer, the assets were still valuable. If the assets were improperly acquired, the alliance in question would have received substantial improper advantage.

3. It has been alleged that there were payments made to alts of the dev in question by the alliance in question for use of the BPOs that were turned over. If these allegations are true, the dev in question continued to profit from the relationship with the alliance in question even after the relationship was formally dissolved.

As to 1) RKK is a communist corp. As to 2) and 3) ... that's a lot of ifs.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jane Spondogolo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:12:00 +0000
BOB guys. Chill man. NOBODY is suggesting that rank and file BOB members are corrupt. The community isnt going to go "in that little gate fight I just had, I got pwned by a bob and OH GOD CORRUPTION UP TO THE TOP". Infact arguably, this isnt about BOB at all.

Furthermore, I'd suggest that all things being equal, theres devs in ALL of the "big 5" (bob, D2, redswarm, LV, AAA) alliances or federations.

Thing is, I *personally* want them ALL out. Yes, it means the devs get a good view of the game. Problem is, MORALLY, the downfalls outweigh the benifits. Frankly I'd rather wait another extra two weeks for the lag to be fixed , hell its been there for 2-3 years anyway, rather than know this game has god 'toons' monstering about foobaring the natural flow of gameplay.

SURELY theres a way for devs to enjoy the game (As I suggested before, how about Concord 'special forces') , without favoring players, AND ALSO , being able to monitor stuff. Stick a GM in fleet battles. Keep a constant feedback sticky thread in the forum (transparancy and free speech is GOOD believe it or not!) , whatever. Its not the only solution.

This is a crisis of confidence. The first step to recovery is this thread itself, and lets give CCP three cheers for letting this thread exist. But the next step is LISTENING to us. And the step after that is ACTION. We know you guys adore this game as much as we do. Lets work together to keep this game great. You dont *HAVE* to do this alone!

And BOB, chill out. This lynch mob isnt after you, its just irate that your so damn defensive about it.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 07/02/2007 16:58:38
You should put a leash on your boys. This type of post will further reinforce the negative stereotypes of BoB that I assume Avon and Dian are here to try to spin away from. "How dare you say anything bad about us" when there is a scandal afoot has never been a wise PR move, just ask any politican, ever.

You must hang out at debate and discussion alot. Since you know about PR moves so well, explain what you are doing to yourself and goonfleet and please.. be honest

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80

Let's be honest Avon. If you were never intending to return to a game; why not make some RL money out of it? After all the only risk would be the killing of an account and a game that you never want to play again.

No, I can honestly say I wouldn't.

I have SWG, EQ2, MxO, UO, and DDo accounts which I could probably shift for a hefty sum of money.
Haven't yet, don't plan on doing so.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Sally Va
Hi, my name is Simon, i'm 32 years old and i'm a BoB hater.

It started a few years ago when I first came into contact with them. They promptly podded me for no apparent reason flying in their T2 ships and smacktalking poor old noobish me. Later on, I discovered they were manipulating the markets by hoarding T2 bpo's and selling overpriced T2 mods/ships to everyone else, and making them at cost or giving them away to their own members.

Jealousy quickly turned into hate.

I'm no longer jealous now. It feels like a great burden has fallen off my shoulders to finally realize the truth. I just feel sorry for all the time I've played this game and payed for it. Now EVERYBODY knows how CCP favors BoB and has been secretly helping them all along.

I wouldn't believe it in the past, when people said BoB were being helped by CCP DEVS. It seemed so incredibly far fetched it just couldn't be true. Tinfoil hattery and what not. How disappointing to find out it's all true afterall.

In a way, I am thankful though. It's finally opened my eyes and I can now say 'I QUIT and will never return'.

And yep, you can have my stuff, cause i feel sorry for you if you still don't realize you're being played like a tool by 'CROWD CONTROL PRODUCTIONS'

Cheers!

This would be very funny... if it had /sarcasm at the start.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
To be completely frank with you, I don't find it odd at all. That might be because I've only ever existed in one corp, which works on a communist model. Our members regularly kill officer spawns and hand over the modules for sale for corp benefit. In the last week we have been running at 100% corp tax and in the history of Evolution I would estimate that up to 50% of our BPOs have come from our members winning them in the lottery and presenting them to the corp. That's how we work.

So to reiterate, no I don't find it odd. Not everyone is motivated by personal gain in this game.

1. That sort of asset distribution is the exception, not the rule.

2. Whether or not the assets became personally-owned after the transfer, the assets were still valuable. If the assets were improperly acquired, the alliance in question would have received substantial improper advantage.

3. It has been alleged that there were payments made to alts of the dev in question by the alliance in question for use of the BPOs that were turned over. If these allegations are true, the dev in question continued to profit from the relationship with the alliance in question even after the relationship was formally dissolved.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Frostbyt

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:10:00 +0000
Sorry if this is a revisiting of something previously mentioned, but replies are coming in faster than I can read (and disappearing just as fast, whole posts, not just snips, what's up with that?)

Allow me to start this off by saying that I have always laughed at the tin foil theories, and have friends on all sides of the game, including BoB. That is until the 2nd to last Alliance PvP Tournament.

Lamond was being interviewed in a live segment. They asked him what kind of PvP he enjoyed most. He went into a detailed description of how he loves to gank mission runners. Immediately after that interview there was supposed to be a match, but for one reason or another, the match was delayed, so they went to a pre-record. That pre-record included an interview with Lamond. He was describing how much time and work he puts into being the LEAD MISSION DESIGNER.

That was enough for me to atleast be open to consider the theories. I immediately started asking my alliance if they all heard what I heard and most of them laughed at me and called me paranoid etc. Of course, I'm an American and more likely to be skeptical of "status quo" activity than my mostly UK alliance mates, as reflected in history :P.

There have clearly been wrong doings. There has been cheating. There are clearly Dev's posting in this thread on "anonymous" names (I'm sure you can point out a few of the most prolific and obvious). It's clear that this scandal reaches to the top of the company; and I might even be reading some passive aggressiveness in Kieron's post like "I wish there was more we could do but we've been told to shut up about it."

Quote:
If there are more concerns that have not been addressed, please forward them to me. I will ensure they are thoroughly investigated. As for the recent investigation, I do not know anything more about it than what is in the above statement.

The above tells me NOTHING substantial is planned or will be done, ever, to change the way the game works or is handled. Devs will still have the uber chars, BOB and other alliances/players will still maintain their ill gotten gains, and the game will continue to be a cheaters and oldest players' paradise.

2 Accounts cancelled here - and I don't even pay my own money; but it is SOMEONE's money buying those GTC's that I fund my accounts with.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Riddari

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:09:00 +0000
It is a shame to see t20 being primary target.

There is no doubt in my mind that he got these BPOs through lottery or purchases, not through nefarious means as a lot of people seem to think.

His mistake was to acknowledge his DEV identity and in not trying to mask himself by using gmail address for example.

Sounds unfair to call for dismissal for that.

+
a history
The fall of ASCN

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Goran
Goonswarm are the alliance who hacked the Eve client to show standings in local chat before it was part of the game right? Moral highground? Heh!

t1 goonies no respect tbqh

YARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: FireFoxx80

If I was leaving Eve permanently then yes, I might give items to friends. Or probably just eBay them if I intended never yo return.

Let's be honest Avon. If you were never intending to return to a game; why not make some RL money out of it? After all the only risk would be the killing of an account and a game that you never want to play again.

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Digioso

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Dr Smythe

How dare you accuse people of things you have no clue about

Please, enlighten us then.
--------------------------------------
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sally Va

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:08:00 +0000
Hi, my name is Simon, i'm 32 years old and i'm a BoB hater.

It started a few years ago when I first came into contact with them. They promptly podded me for no apparent reason flying in their T2 ships and smacktalking poor old noobish me. Later on, I discovered they were manipulating the markets by hoarding T2 bpo's and selling overpriced T2 mods/ships to everyone else, and making them at cost or giving them away to their own members.

Jealousy quickly turned into hate.

I'm no longer jealous now. It feels like a great burden has fallen off my shoulders to finally realize the truth. I just feel sorry for all the time I've played this game and payed for it. Now EVERYBODY knows how CCP favors BoB and has been secretly helping them all along.

I wouldn't believe it in the past, when people said BoB were being helped by CCP DEVS. It seemed so incredibly far fetched it just couldn't be true. Tinfoil hattery and what not. How disappointing to find out it's all true afterall.

In a way, I am thankful though. It's finally opened my eyes and I can now say 'I QUIT and will never return'.

And yep, you can have my stuff, cause i feel sorry for you if you still don't realize you're being played like a tool by 'CROWD CONTROL PRODUCTIONS'

Cheers!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Dr Smythe
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Dr Smythe
Edited by: Dr Smythe on 07/02/2007 16:56:34
OMG you anti-BoB haters are all n00bs.

Seriously, I know we all put a lot of time and effort into this game but get real.
You are taking this way too seriously.

I hear calls for peoples jobs, I hear calls for CCP to leave well enough the game alone, I hear calls for people to have characters deleted and their possessions along with them.

I have not been in BoB long enough to know any of the particular parties but it does not even matter. It's the principle of the matter that counts and obviously most of you guys have 0 principles.

How dare you accuse people of things you have no clue about, how dare you ask for someones job when you have no idea of what their background is and who they are supporting. How dare you ask for characters to be deleted and possessions taken back.
What right have you? Do you think you have a right because you pay 15 per month or how ever many multiples there maybe? You have no right. I rent my house do I have a right to knock it down. Do I have a right to blow in the windows and doors and not replace them to my landlords standards. NO.

CCP is your landord while you play this game. It is not a democracy. Your views are valued but beyond that you are what makes CCP rich.

If you can not get these points in to your heads then you are way too involved in EVE and possibly need physciatric help.

Get real, get lives outside of EvE.

OMG get laid this weekend to relieve all of the stress that all of you seem to be suffering from.

That is the Doc's orders

Ahhh yes.... name-calling makes it all better...

name calling < false accusations with out substantial evidence

Ok, I see... the lesser of two evils defense.

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:06:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80

If I was leaving Eve permanently then yes, I might give items to friends. Or probably just eBay them if I intended never yo return.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Goran

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:05:00 +0000
Goonswarm are the alliance who hacked the Eve client to show standings in local chat before it was part of the game right? Moral highground? Heh!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dr Smythe

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Dr Smythe
Edited by: Dr Smythe on 07/02/2007 16:56:34
OMG you anti-BoB haters are all n00bs.

Seriously, I know we all put a lot of time and effort into this game but get real.
You are taking this way too seriously.

I hear calls for peoples jobs, I hear calls for CCP to leave well enough the game alone, I hear calls for people to have characters deleted and their possessions along with them.

I have not been in BoB long enough to know any of the particular parties but it does not even matter. It's the principle of the matter that counts and obviously most of you guys have 0 principles.

How dare you accuse people of things you have no clue about, how dare you ask for someones job when you have no idea of what their background is and who they are supporting. How dare you ask for characters to be deleted and possessions taken back.
What right have you? Do you think you have a right because you pay 15 per month or how ever many multiples there maybe? You have no right. I rent my house do I have a right to knock it down. Do I have a right to blow in the windows and doors and not replace them to my landlords standards. NO.

CCP is your landord while you play this game. It is not a democracy. Your views are valued but beyond that you are what makes CCP rich.

If you can not get these points in to your heads then you are way too involved in EVE and possibly need physciatric help.

Get real, get lives outside of EvE.

OMG get laid this weekend to relieve all of the stress that all of you seem to be suffering from.

That is the Doc's orders

Ahhh yes.... name-calling makes it all better...

name calling < false accusations with out substantial evidence

-----------------------------------
Help Dr Smythe get a Corvus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dragutinovic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Dr Smythe
Edited by: Dr Smythe on 07/02/2007 16:56:34
OMG you anti-BoB haters are all n00bs.

Hows Montezuma ?

Oh wait thats right .......
_____________

Im back !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:05:00 +0000
Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 07/02/2007 17:03:08
Originally by: Logan Feynman
Originally by: FireFoxx80
Originally by: Logan Feynman
Originally by: FireFoxx80
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

Don't you just find it slightly odd that a corp member would give several billion ISK worth of T2 BPO's to a corp? I mean, most people would quote happily kill to get one T2 BPO, let alone ten (unsure of precise number, I cba to find it)

This is not an accusation, just an observation.

If he was leaving, what else could he do with them? Give it to one of his alts and then to a new character he was about to create? Hmmm?

I would.

And this would not be cheating?

How?

As a player, if my character was banned, then all my assets and ISK would be seized.

As a player, if I was killing off a character and starting afresh, I would most definitely give him billions of ISK.

If I was leaving Eve permanently then yes, I might give items to friends. Or probably just eBay them if I intended never yo return.

Edit: only we now know from CCP that 'discovered' employees just have to change their character name.

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Depp Knight

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:04:00 +0000

Quote:
Don't you just find it slightly odd that a corp member would give several billion ISK worth of T2 BPO's to a corp? I mean, most people would quote happily kill to get one T2 BPO, let alone ten (unsure of precise number, I cba to find it)

This is not an accusation, just an observation.

-----
Hope I got the quote right, very sleepy. But just to remind you RKK is a commie corp and to top it all off, if you were to pass on wouldnt you give what your financial investments to your love ones?

Heck some of us will donate their body parts if we had passed on. Same principal, if you leaved a game and plan not to return wouldnt you pass on your earnings to your pals in game? If your answer is no, then I find that odd to me and maybe many others as well.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Depp Knight

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:57:00 +0000
"We have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations."

Pretty much that just says that CCP couldnt find any evidence to provide if the party was guilty or innocent, in other words not guilty.

Yet the tread lights up with finger pointing and players yelling out 'bob are cheats' Yes we all want a clear statement but till we get it why not remain civil? Instead a lot of you must believe in a conspiracy of some sorts. You dont lose that much faith over night, this is something you have thought about often and if you have gone that deep in the spiral then its time to look to spend your gaming time elsewhere because your yelling and finger pointing is getting nowhere and to be honest it kinda makes you look very naive.

It reminds me of religion. Though I dont want this to backlash on me but its proven that there are many sections in the bible that have been proven false. People believe in religion because they do, its a way of comfort just like how is very comfortable to accuse BoB as cheaters, you believe it cause you do despite what has been stated.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:57:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

Don't you just find it slightly odd that a corp member would give several billion ISK worth of T2 BPO's to a corp? I mean, most people would quote happily kill to get one T2 BPO, let alone ten (unsure of precise number, I cba to find it)

This is not an accusation, just an observation.

If he was leaving, what else could he do with them? Give it to one of his alts and then to a new character he was about to create? Hmmm?
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:56:00 +0000
Us mere subscribers wouldn't get advanced warning before we were banned to transfer stuff. We want these devs to get the normal player experience, right?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

Don't you just find it slightly odd that a corp member would give several billion ISK worth of T2 BPO's to a corp? I mean, most people would quote happily kill to get one T2 BPO, let alone ten (unsure of precise number, I cba to find it)

This is not an accusation, just an observation.

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

Would you ask questions if an employee of the US Mint died and left his descendants stacks of consecutively-numbered $100 bills?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

It appears to be less ethical than not giving them your stuff.

Interesting.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Torshin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

this is interesting to here discussion of ethics from a turncoat

-----------------------------------------------

Offical Tardz Poo-litical Anal-yst

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Seamus O'Flannery

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

Just like it's not okay for a dev to leave his character in a corp once he's outed, neither is it okay to leave his billions of isk worth of T2 BPOs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Jacob Majestic
Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

What is unethical about giving your corp your stuff?

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fi T'Zeh

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:52:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani

It appears that BoB has the most devs in it, compared to any other organization in the game

From evidence what do you deduce that BoB has the most devs in it?

Originally by: TheMittani

your vehement defense of their right to fly with you is little more than the keening demands of someone who wishes to keep the game rigged in their favor. It is childishly easy to see through your hollow protestations and see the motives underlying them, and that is why you see such outrage from the community.

No. I play internet space games for a challenge. I don't want it rigged in my favour.

Originally by: TheMittani

There should not be devs on Tranquility, and there certainly should be no devs in 0.0 alliances.

That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. I happen to disagree and so, at the moment, do CCP. Maybe this fiaso will change that policy. I hope it doesn't because I beleive it will be detrimental to the quality of the game. Maybe it would lead to less damage in other ways such as improved player confidence, but somehow i doubt it. Would the screaming loonies beleive CCP if they said "we have changed our policy. Devs no longer play on TQ accounts" ?...On the basis of todays hysteria I suspect not.

Originally by: TheMittani

There absolutely, utterly, should never be any devs leading the capital fleet of a 0.0 alliance who also happen to donate all their t2 bpos to their corporation after being outed as a dev and forced to leave.

Again that is your opinion, and my response lies above. However since my opinion coincides with the current position of CCP i suspect you will discount it immediately.

Originally by: TheMittani

Really, that bit shouldn't even bear mentioning, it's so blindingly obvious. It's pathetic that CCP apparently did not understand that.

No, what is pathetic is that they did not come up with something better than this sorry excuse for a statement, which as many of my alliance mates predicted has lead to further patheticness from certains section of the community.
....

Playing EVE on easy mode since May 2003.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

You don't think CCP devs should be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to their interaction with in-game alliances?

Interesting.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Amiable Quinn
Originally by: Logan Feynman

This remains to be seen. The impact of this event will be far less than average poster in this thread believes. For a short while, eve will have slightly less lag and slightly less paranoid people in. Most people "outraged" at this "inconcievable breach of conduct" will continue playing, and forget about this until the next time someone accuses anyone of being a dev. Then the story will repeat itself, this time mentioning this "incident", as well.

Eh, you may well be right. I can only speak for myself, and I know if this isn't handled adequately, it will have an effect on my decision to re-up.

As for BoB: I really feel bad for you guys, you are in a no-win situation. I would reccomend being at the forefront of more disclosure,as opposed to being supportive of the stonewalling, but its your call.

I don't support stonewalling. I support the company I see no reason to distrust for now. From my current position, I believe it would have been better to offer more in the way of facts, especially since it appears that the facts would clear BoB of endless accusations of cheating and being devs. However, this is how they handle these incidents, and I am sure they have their reasons.

However, what I am mainly in favour here is that the devs should have the right to play this game, and that the idea that they are cheating and helping their respective alliances is absurd.

I also hate withchunts and conspiracy theories.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Michayel Lyon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:51:00 +0000
Non-BoB

BoB

---
Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied?
Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:49:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Avon

I think we have all stated that we would be in favour of more disclosure.
Read back.

Well then!

Kindly disclose your defense of T20 donating his 10 t2 bpos from his character Ishos to Reikoku, once he was forced to leave the corp?

Let's assume for the moment that those t2 bpos were legitimately gained through legitimate game mechanics. No 'spawning bpos' argument or any of that nonsense.

Just a simple transaction: one of the main developers of the game is forced to leave RKK with his character, and as he leaves he just happens to donate thousands of dollars worth of the rarest items in the game to his beloved corp out of the goodness of his heart.

Your reasoning as to why this is peachy keen, and doesn't reek of an ethical violation?

If I was leaving Eve I would give my stuff to BNC.

What would you do with your stuff?

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:48:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

I think we have all stated that we would be in favour of more disclosure.
Read back.

Well then!

Kindly disclose your defense of T20 donating his 10 t2 bpos from his character Ishos to Reikoku, once he was forced to leave the corp?

Let's assume for the moment that those t2 bpos were legitimately gained through legitimate game mechanics. No 'spawning bpos' argument or any of that nonsense.

Just a simple transaction: one of the main developers of the game is forced to leave RKK with his character, and as he leaves he just happens to donate thousands of dollars worth of the rarest items in the game to his beloved corp out of the goodness of his heart.

Your reasoning as to why this is peachy keen, and doesn't reek of an ethical violation?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacque Custeau

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:48:00 +0000
Wow admittedly I did read everything, but I too found Kieron's response inadequate. However, I will offer some constructive criticism here:

1. Not being able to investigate misconduct in an event arc because of the passage of time is a big problem here. Putting the 'free' mothership and BoB aside, I have been hearing more and more about alliances knowing about events ahead of time. Not just BoB, but ASCN and others. The Aurora team has a leaky faucet and perhaps some new auditing technique needs to be implemented there.

2. If the Devs are going to play the game for the benifit of the players, then they need to experience all aspects of the game instead of just joining a major alliance. I've often said that if CCP producers/devs had to mine ice for a full hour, they would likely create a macro 10 minutes into the event.

3. I'm actually not surprised by the number of BPO's Lord Stone had. He could have easily scored the Sabre and used the revenue from that to buy the other BPO's there. The other ones sell for jump change (400-800mil) and could have been easily acquired. However, if the characters are being deleted, then their posessions, including the bpo's, should be removed as well. No one should be able to keep their 'stuff'

If the devs did nothing wrong except reveal their identities, then I do feel sorry for them. Starting from scratch sucks. I hope they learn their lesson.
-------------------

Looking for Amarr Mission Runner

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:47:00 +0000
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 16:46:02
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 16:45:30
Originally by: Gneiss Phace
Originally by: kieron

In both cases, these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game. Many of them have been around since the creation of EVE and it is most unfortunate that these developers are now forced to end their relationships with their in-game friends, but that is our policy when the anonymity of staff members has been compromised.

Oh noes! Devs will have to buy new uber characters and rejoin their old corps! With un-traceable and unaccountable character names!

The horror. The horror.

Like relationships end when toons die....

Oh yea, and if they have cash flow problems, they can spawn officer-fitted Scorpions and fly them into a BoB gatecamp!

Not like CCP GMs would ever consider doing something like that.

Oh wait.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hedgie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:46:00 +0000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianabolic
...hell even t20 secret infos i had in the past, i trusted u all with those. Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:09 pm

Taken from one of the recent rkk leak posts *snip* Please don't post RL names -Eldo Davip(mods@ccpgames.com). Speaks for itself really.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gneiss Phace

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Amiable Quinn

This is why it is vitally important for CCP to address some fundamental questions:

1. How was this investigation undertaken?

2. Was any malfeasance discovered?

3. What specifically are the rules for CCP employee participation in EvE? (Eg.. Are they allowed to scam? Are they allowed to win T2 BPO's? If discovered are they allowed to transfer their assets?)

4. How is CCP employee oversight handled?

/signed

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Amerame

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:37:00 +0000
Devs playing the game cannot be just regular players, no matter how you look at it. Their vision is just as twisted if they are all (or most) playing in BoB as if they were not playing the game. Kieron stated there were devs in BoB, RA and ASCN. Is that it ? then it means there are 95%+ devs in bob 1 or 2 in RA and ASCN no longer exist, don't you think it would be a BIG issue if it were the case ?

Maybe having some statistic telling us that not only there is 1 odd dev playing with RA (spy ?)but that actually a large majority of devs playing in alliance warfare are NOT in BoB. (BoB is less than 10% of the players involved in alliance warfare, so anything about 50% of the devs in BoB would be disturbing).

It's especialy a problem if said alliance (BoB) is the most succesfull one at the moment. From my point of view I would just like to know the # of devs playing in each alliance (with their main character).

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rob Graves

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
No Mittani, we are defending the right of Devs to be in ANY alliance they choose. Not only BoB. Important difference.

That all of them happens to reside in BoD and earn director roles through advice and donations is completely irrelevant.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:37:00 +0000
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 07/02/2007 16:34:26
Originally by: Jacob Majestic
How long are you going to be satisfied "playing BoB's game" when there is evidence that the game has been rigged?

What evidence? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Borasao
I'm sure that any number of gaming magazines (online and paper) would love to run a story about the possibility of developers in/of an MMOG played in the game and manipulated it to their advantage in any number of ways.

This remains to be seen. The impact of this event will be far less than average poster in this thread believes. For a short while, eve will have slightly less lag and slightly less paranoid people in. Most people "outraged" at this "inconcievable breach of conduct" will continue playing, and forget about this until the next time someone accuses anyone of being a dev. Then the story will repeat itself, this time mentioning this "incident", as well.

BoB will still be hated, accused of cheating and being 90% developers. Devs will still play this game in all major alliances. The only thing I hope is that there will be no more hackers to "expose" any of them.

Imagine your best friend in eve being a dev, without you knowing it. Then a self-righteous RL criminal on his "quest for justice" reveals that he is actually (gasp!) a developer. You never see that person again in eve, regardless of the fact that you spent 3-4 hours each day with this person for the last three years and is actually closer to you than many people you know in RL.

I am sickened by some of the people here, and am especially dissapointed with the Black Lance crowd. You're not good people.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jacob Majestic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:34:00 +0000
Edited by: Jacob Majestic on 07/02/2007 16:34:17
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Prydeless
I dont see how anyone can say how nothing was found. Kierons original post might as well of been locked for no content...

If a glass is empty it's empty, it can't magically be full just because you wish it is.

Without "spamming corp members" this misconduct would have never been brought to light. How long are you going to be satisfied "playing BoB's game" when there is evidence that the game has been rigged?

Originally by: The Mittani
There absolutely, utterly, should never be any devs leading the capital fleet of a 0.0 alliance who also happen to donate all their t2 bpos to their corporation after being outed as a dev and forced to leave.

It should also be noted that these events were alleged to occur in 2005. Anyone who plays EVE knows that it takes money to make money. Any ill-gotten gains that were worth X in 2005 probably have made an impact of 2X or even 3X now that we're in 2007.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Seamus O'Flannery
This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.

Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.

Please, do take the rest of your spamming corpmembers with you.

Ironic considering the number of your content free posts in this thread.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Prydeless
I dont see how anyone can say how nothing was found. Kierons original post might as well of been locked for no content...

If a glass is empty it's empty, it can't magically be full just because you wish it is.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fred0

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
No Mittani, we are defending the right of Devs to be in ANY alliance they choose. Not only BoB. Important difference.

Any dev or ccp employee though who tells anyone else he is in that position should just be fired and all accounts deleted. It's a serious breach and it ruins the GAME.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
No Mittani, we are defending the right of Devs to be in ANY alliance they choose. Not only BoB. Important difference.

It appears that BoB has the most devs in it, compared to any other organization in the game; your vehement defense of their right to fly with you is little more than the keening demands of someone who wishes to keep the game rigged in their favor. It is childishly easy to see through your hollow protestations and see the motives underlying them, and that is why you see such outrage from the community.

You can continue trying to pass this off as mere 'BoB hate', but what is really happening is an anti-CCP backlash. There should not be devs on Tranquility, and there certainly should be no devs in 0.0 alliances.

There absolutely, utterly, should never be any devs leading the capital fleet of a 0.0 alliance who also happen to donate all their t2 bpos to their corporation after being outed as a dev and forced to leave.

Really, that bit shouldn't even bear mentioning, it's so blindingly obvious. It's pathetic that CCP apparently did not understand that.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Maze La'Zie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Fry Fortune
A lot of people are just playing the same old record (bob guys, and anti bob fanboys.)

As such I believe the collective response of the community to Kieron's post is that it isn't enough. Some people will never be happy with what ccp say, in that I agree, but when 95% of the people are not satisfied, and the only guys who seem to be satisfied are either biased(bob leadership), or enjoy a close relationship with ccp (Ifni) the general consensus seems to be that we want more details/ and a stance on issues from Kieron or whoever is in charge of clearing CCP's name of corruption.

Agreed.

Please kieron/Oveur/Hellmar/whoever. Give us clarification on whether or not any CCP employee cheated and, if so, that you dealt with it appropriately.
___________________
Chief Scientific Officer
Technology La'Zie
Author of The End

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Seamus O'Flannery
This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.

Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.

Please, do take the rest of your spamming corpmembers with you.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Ebil Kinebil
Originally by: Captain Thunk

So you're confirming that the chatlogs Kugu posted were actually legitimate, not fabricated and DPB did indeed intend to buy the character for real life currency disregarding the EULA entirely?

So why isn't he banned then?

If I think about murdering my boss/flatmate/cat do I get life in prison? No, unless I actually carry it out or attempt to.

Well considering he repeatedly attempted to make the bank transfer after swapping bank details then he more than "thought" about it, now didn't he?

so....why isn't he banned now Dianabolic and yourself have confirmed those mails to be real external from kugu and direct from the original source?

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Auri Hella

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:30:00 +0000
This thread does not deliver.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Eldo Davip

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Seamus O'Flannery
This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.

Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.

If you have problems with our moderation email us at mods@ccpgames.com and one of our leads will explain any problems you have.
___

Email Us | Forum Rules | Our Website

EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Borasao

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:26:00 +0000
I'm sure that any number of gaming magazines (online and paper) would love to run a story about the possibility of developers in/of an MMOG played in the game and manipulated it to their advantage in any number of ways.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:26:00 +0000
I dont see how anyone can say how nothing was found. Kierons original post might as well of been locked for no content...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:25:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani

And you wonder why the community are convinced that there is misconduct here: BoB posters such as yourself are falling all over themselves desperately defending the rights of Devs to be in BoB.

No, I defend the right for the Devs to be in any corp / alliance that they so choose.
We know that when this kicked off that there were player characters of Devs in several alliances (as stated by kieron).
Did we demand that they be made to leave those alliances and join BoB?

Silly boy.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Seamus O'Flannery

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:25:00 +0000
This is me canceling my subscription. Heavyhanded ISD moderation sure doesn't help alleviate any suspicions.

Note to moderators: If you edit my post, please leave the first sentence. Thanks in advance.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:24:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 16:22:50
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Rod Blaine

CCP play Eve, they will continue doing that no matter what you think. I think most of us agree that that's a good thing. Kieron also stated tha they will NOT limit them in freedom within the gameplay. Both dev aaccoutns as well as private accounts seem to be audited, so that gives some reassurance that everythign will be ok.

That mean these options remain:

public chars
sekrit chars

Option one isn't chosen because in effect it would do NOTHING to alleviate tinfoilhattery.

Option two *is* chosen to protect said devs from *you* and not vice versa.

And you wonder why the community are convinced that there is misconduct here: BoB posters such as yourself are falling all over themselves desperately defending the rights of Devs to be in BoB.

If you are innocent, simply separate yourself from CCP and play the game like everyone else, neh?

Failing that, anything you do, ever, will be written off as Dev-backed cheating. BoB cheers on devs, devs cheer on BoB, community says 'screw this' and takes the news of the incestuous relationship to the gaming press.

The only sensible solution to any of this nonsense that will actually remove the stink of impropriety from the game is for CCP to ban devs on Tranquility, or at the very least remove them from any 0.0 alliances.

I dont care if there's no devs in BoB, I care wether they play their game. Imo they should, more people still think they should, CCP themselves are convinced they should according to Kieron.

We can debate the use of live playing by devs all night, but it's not goign to change the fact that they will play on tq, and be in your, mine, and anyone else alliance when doing it.

So, that comes down to CCP caring less about the 'stink of impropriety' as you call it, and their conviction that they need to be playing on tq. I fully agree with them there, because that stink is always goign to be there anyway, the tinfoil is strong.

[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

It's in the logs of the forums and pms he posted, Shin, where dbp and Judicator finally decided that no real life cash would change hands for it. I don't have the logs, I'm sure you can sign up to kugs sight for them if you wish.

Either way, dbp says no money changed hands, I believe him, ccp haven't banned him, proof enough for me.

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

Jud left the game and gave the character, gratis, to dbp.

So you're confirming that the chatlogs Kugu posted were actually legitimate, not fabricated and DPB did indeed intend to buy the character for real life currency disregarding the EULA entirely?

So why isn't he banned then?

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Urban II

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:16:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianabolic
...hell even t20 secret infos i had in the past, i trusted u all with those. Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:09 pm

More fabricated evidence from Mr K right?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:15:00 +0000
*snip* This is not appropriate for the eve-o forums, and also has no relation to it, do not post it again - hutch

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Susan Acid
Originally by: Dianabolic
Edited by: Dianabolic on 07/02/2007 15:20:50
We don't play with Devs. We play with characters, normal eve pilots - if one of those pilots turns out to be a dev, I really don't care, because they never got treated any different by me, or anyone else.

This is not about how you treat Devs.I don't know why your defending CCP seeing as they just allowed your Alliance to be perceived as a bunch of cheaters when they could have exonerated you and put this whole Pantomime to rest once and for all.All CCP have done is pour more blood in the water for the conspiracy theorists.

we're used to that, it's only going to get worse rather then better too as the fanboys seem to somehow continue to play for years even tho they're so desillusioned and all.

It would have been nice if kieron had posted with a bit mroe detail, and a bit more forcefull in exonerating the employees and players involved. But all in all we probably don't see this as much different from past and future tinfoilhattery.

Not saying we don't care, just saying we see it as a given that people will try score cheap points every time.

[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by D'onryu Shoqui

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:14:00 +0000
rofl! rod blaine , yea accounts are audited so its obviously okay!

FUNNY HOW THEY DIDNT FIND ALL THIS STUFF OUT UNTIL A REGULAR EVE USER BROUGHT IT TO THERE ATTENTION.
obviously there auditing isnt good enough , it will be intresting to see what pcgamer UK make of all this

------------------------------
My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Herculite

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Berious

That same hacking shows the dev in question was quite open about his employment status, in contravention of CCPs policies. If you accept the hacking was real then we know some funny business went on, we just don't know how deep it goes.

Being open about your status with people in game doesn't mean anything funny is going on.

I read some of the hacked info threads, but most likely not all of them, but from what I read I didn't see anything that really spelled out cheating. Likewise I couldn't trust such information as it would be very easy to put a faked email in with all the real hacked stuff.

This is where you need game logs, but as someone who has had some experiance with this sort of thing checking logs in another game for cheating, unless the logs are desgined to show cheating, its VERY difficult and time consuming, even if you had every keystroke logged to find it amoung the giggabytes of information they can contain. Most logs are not every keystroke of course, and as such they might not have been set to record actions that were required to either make a bpo or 'trigger' an agent. Therefore you could never prove or disprove cheating in this case.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyer

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Laythun
The press release says nothing at all.

No content, nothing. Just marketing words for 'we banned him, we think wat he did was bad, we like to make money, we are giving you no answer'

Im pretty disappointed.

This statement will not put the issue behind us because its a cop out. Basically he was banned and thats it, no word on anything else that happened.

As someone who works in marketing
tut tut CCP.

No ban, his chars got deleted because people discovered his ccp identity, not because he actually did something wrong.

It's the usual policy, and there's mroe devs affected then those in bob too afaik.

How do you know there are more Devs involved? May I ask where this is public knowledge?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:13:00 +0000
Edited by: Shin Ra on 07/02/2007 16:10:49
I'm not taking K's ramblings as gospel by any means. He raised a controversial point, showed evidence (which is easy to fabricate as its just computer text). This strated a chaing of events. Now the key factor here which gives the whole argument at least some credabilitiy, is that we have admissions that K did gain access to RKK forums and did have access to such information. Still, that doesn't make it true, he could have found nothing and made it all up. But its enough to make me ask questions and its certainly enough to make all the haters ask questions. Furthermore, the alleged Bob threats to K as a response is futher fueling the flames. And K's posts of the incident don't proove or disproove the event happened. It just shows intent. Combine these 3 factors and you have the makings of a stronger case. Granted the internet spaceship tribuneral would probably give a "not proven" verdict without any more evidence. So I will finish posting here (yes my last post on this subject) with a quote from a Scottish tour gide on the "not proven" thing:

We know you did it, we canna proove it, so away ya go and don't do it again!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by 31i73

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:13:00 +0000
I wonder if this is related: I'd like to see how long I have paid my current sub, but I Can't. Maybe too many are trying to do it at once?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:13:00 +0000

Originally by: Travis Raven
Originally by: Drakma
Is this a court of law?

No no it's clearly MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.

To be honest, you win.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:12:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Drakma

Is this a court of law?

lol, clearly not.

If it was this case wouldn't be getting heard, that's for sure.

I OBJECT!

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Susan Acid

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Edited by: Dianabolic on 07/02/2007 15:20:50
We don't play with Devs. We play with characters, normal eve pilots - if one of those pilots turns out to be a dev, I really don't care, because they never got treated any different by me, or anyone else.

This is not about how you treat Devs.I don't know why your defending CCP seeing as they just allowed your Alliance to be perceived as a bunch of cheaters when they could have exonerated you and put this whole Pantomime to rest once and for all.All CCP have done is pour more blood in the water for the conspiracy theorists.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
Can someone explain to me what on earth makes people think that "Dont tell wont ask" is a good idea re Devs in alliances.

Being sneaky doesnt solve conflict of intrest. It merely hides it.

Either NO devs in alliances (my personal prefered options), or it should be made public knowledge WHO those devs are.

Or should we just have this same drama over and over again everytime an "anthonyz/kugutsu/wtf hes called today" turns up and blows the lid off it all?

CCP play Eve, they will continue doing that no matter what you think. I think most of us agree that that's a good thing. Kieron also stated tha they will NOT limit them in freedom within the gameplay. Both dev aaccoutns as well as private accounts seem to be audited, so that gives some reassurance that everythign will be ok.

That mean these options remain:

public chars
sekrit chars

Option one isn't chosen because in effect it would do NOTHING to alleviate tinfoilhattery.

Option two *is* chosen to protect said devs from *you* and not vice versa.

[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dfgdfgerdv

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:07:00 +0000
This discussion all boils down to, "We are jelouse of BOB, therefore they must cheat"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:07:00 +0000
A couple of handy quotes, for those that missed them:

Originally by: kieron
We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

Originally by: Virtuozzo
Look, for all those who think Kieron is going to post again with more investigation results, read what he said. The matter is closed. This is it.

Originally by: kieron
Long and short of it, you either believe the Devs and continue to play EVE, or you don't believe the Devs and you chose whether or not to continue playing EVE.

Originally by: Dianabolic
Decide to stay and play, or don't

Originally by: Logan Feynman
The only ones that will know the entire story are CCP, and you can either:
a) trust them and STFU
b) not trust them and leave the game

.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:05:00 +0000
So I wonder if any devs are going to respond about the t2 bpos and other stuff of relevence that everyone is waiting for or if this post will be the last and they will try and sweep it under the carpet, which after 15 pages I think might be the case which is utter crap.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jane Spondogolo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:04:00 +0000
Can someone explain to me what on earth makes people think that "Dont tell wont ask" is a good idea re Devs in alliances.

Being sneaky doesnt solve conflict of intrest. It merely hides it.

Either NO devs in alliances (my personal prefered options), or it should be made public knowledge WHO those devs are.

Or should we just have this same drama over and over again everytime an "anthonyz/kugutsu/wtf hes called today" turns up and blows the lid off it all?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Amiable Quinn

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

Is this a court of law?

Does it matter? Are you saying the burden of proof should be different... just because you say so?

This is not a court of law. If this WAS a court of law the prosecution would have something called "discovery" where they would be able to use subpoena power (well if they worked for the government) to:

1. Gain access to all of CCP's computer records.
2. Gain access to all of BoB's records
3. Gain access to all of Kug's computer records
4. Depose all relevant individuals.

Quite frankly this is not a court of law (and not a case that any court of law in any country would be remotely interested in). As such our only source of information are what we see in the blogs and what we get from CCP.

Those of you arguing that "this would never convict someone in a court of law completely miss the point. We can only go on the evidence that is presented to us. If CCP refuses to address this information or show any transparency then any ensuing tin-foil hattery is on their heads, because they refuse to honestly address the issue.

As someone who deals with "burden of proof" on a daily basis allow me to say that MOST cases (especially white collar crimes) are decided on circumtantial records, especially e-mail logs. Why? Because non-circumstantial evidence requires a witness, and often there are no witnesses in these cases.

This is why it is vitally important for CCP to address some fundamental questions:

1. How was this investigation undertaken?

2. Was any malfeasance discovered?

3. What specifically are the rules for CCP employee participation in EvE? (Eg.. Are they allowed to scam? Are they allowed to win T2 BPO's? If discovered are they allowed to transfer their assets?)

4. How is CCP employee oversight handled?

Quite frankly Kieron, CCP's response is wholly inadequate and this is rapidly turning into a "jump the shark" moment for CCP.

And no offense Avon, but your dogged defense of BoB and the Devs is succeeding in doing nothing but convincing the general public that Bob was complicit in developer misconduct.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Candy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Travis Raven
Originally by: Drakma
Is this a court of law?

No no it's clearly MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.

Hey dude, don't make jokes, EVE is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Also, UKM Thorgrim, a real man deletes his characters in protest. That'll show em!

------------------------------------

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dragutinovic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 16:01:00 +0000

Originally by: XirtamVotf
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found? From Sir Molle

I think that you personally posting player personnel
Info on the forums is a bannable offense correct?
You editing and removing AFTER half of the EVE community already read the post says alot that your still in game eh ?

Its like i said CCP are biased towards certain people in this game .
They cant be fair and neutral wich has been proven time and time again .
_____________

Im back !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:56:00 +0000

Originally by: Herculite
Without reading every page of this soon to be epic thread, what I see happened was this.

The fact that a dev was playing in BoB at one time came out from the illegal hacking.

Lots of tinfoil hats were donned.

CCP investigated if there was cheating involved but the logs were not adiquate to prove it or disprove it.

For the good of the game the characters involved in all this get deleted even though it may have been grossly unfair to those involved.

Based on what t2 bpo's he had, for a guy who started playing at the start of the game, it seems quite possible that they were legit. Now being a dev would mean you would know how to 'play the r&d game' before everyone else, so it might have been 'unfair' in that way, but in terms of mechanics I'd be willing to bet no cheating went on. If I were cheating to get t2 bpo's I'd have had much better ones.

But if people have lost their characters just to keep the vultures happy thats pretty sad.

That same hacking shows the dev in question was quite open about his employment status, in contravention of CCPs policies. If you accept the hacking was real then we know some funny business went on, we just don't know how deep it goes.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Navdaq

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:55:00 +0000

Cheating CCP employees.

A new low.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Sophie Aubrey
Edited by: Sophie Aubrey on 07/02/2007 15:48:31
Why are there so many BoB posts? You are in essence trolling since you are encouraging arguments instead of just directing your responses to Keiron and CCP. Quit trying to be moderators and let CCP handle it.

Agreed go home mods

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 15:23:13
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2460/bobspacesg3.jpg

LOl - Suggested alterations to the alliance map.

You need a warzone.

And, for my final post on this thread (as sophie is ofc quite correct):

Decide to stay and play, or don't
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by HatePeace LoveWar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:54:00 +0000
Its harsh for the dev's who have to change their characters, unless they did of course abuse their position and assisted their alliance, in which case i have no pitty for them.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

Is this a court of law?

Does it matter? Are you saying the burden of proof should be different... just because you say so?

Nope, what I am saying is that this is clearly not a legal venue, and as such, legal posturing should be left out of it. This is CCP's game and CCP's decision to make, not yours nor anybody elses. How they choose to communicate that decision is totally up to them and they have to live with their decisions.

To borrow a Goonism.... just sayin.

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sophie Aubrey

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:52:00 +0000
Edited by: Sophie Aubrey on 07/02/2007 15:50:16
Edited by: Sophie Aubrey on 07/02/2007 15:48:31
Why are there so many BoB posts? You are in essence trolling since you are encouraging arguments instead of just directing your responses to Keiron and CCP. Quit trying to be moderators and let CCP handle it.

The reason why this thread has exploded is cause of you. Quit trolling for no good reason YOU won't change anyone's mind. Hopefully CCP will settle this.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
So at the very least this shows that, other than someones word, there is no proof available to any of us. So I think that your statement about the accusation being proven to be complete rubbish, is infact, ironically, complete rubbish.

Except there IS proof, Shin. In fact, the same logs that you are using to say that he DID pay cash for it... later show that he did not. So, the proof of transfer comes from the same source.

You've believed it thus far, but now it's in contradiction you claim it is "absolute rubbish"? I appreciate your attempt to being neutral mate, you can either take us at our word or not, or go register on those forums and see where the pm convos end.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Herculite

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:50:00 +0000
Without reading every page of this soon to be epic thread, what I see happened was this.

The fact that a dev was playing in BoB at one time came out from the illegal hacking.

Lots of tinfoil hats were donned.

CCP investigated if there was cheating involved but the logs were not adiquate to prove it or disprove it.

For the good of the game the characters involved in all this get deleted even though it may have been grossly unfair to those involved.

Based on what t2 bpo's he had, for a guy who started playing at the start of the game, it seems quite possible that they were legit. Now being a dev would mean you would know how to 'play the r&d game' before everyone else, so it might have been 'unfair' in that way, but in terms of mechanics I'd be willing to bet no cheating went on. If I were cheating to get t2 bpo's I'd have had much better ones.

But if people have lost their characters just to keep the vultures happy thats pretty sad.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Travis Raven

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:49:00 +0000

Originally by: Drakma
Is this a court of law?

No no it's clearly MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:48:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra

You admit that Judicator was transferred from the original owner to dbp.
If this was done gratis, then we have only your word to say so.
This would imply that there is no possible way for CCP to proove that cash was/wasn't exchanged.

So at the very least this shows that, other than someones word, there is no proof available to any of us. So I think that your statement about the accusation being proven to be complete rubbish, is infact, ironically, complete rubbish.

So if there is no proof but a baseless accusation, why are we still going on about it ?
The facts are simple, judicators acc was transfered to dbps account and it was paid by judicator. Both were corpm8s at that time and apart from some "could be dbps mails" from a forum hacking (ack illegal information obtaining) we have nothing to actually backup this claim.

In short ure telling us here Shin that if i would come around and tell you some random allianceleader or highprofile poster on these forums received one of his known chars via moneyfunded chartransfers you would jump right away onto it and believe me ? Especially if i back it up with some cheesy quotes or screenshots ?
Seems rather easy to accuse ppl of stuff these days without any proof i guess....

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Drakma
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

Is this a court of law?

Does it matter? Are you saying the burden of proof should be different... just because you say so?
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Drakma

Is this a court of law?

lol, clearly not.

If it was this case wouldn't be getting heard, that's for sure.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

Not what I said at all.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

Is this a court of law?

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Prydeless

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:41:00 +0000
This is what I figured would happen, no real answer from ccp just spin.

And for the people in BOB who benifited from this, I hope you burn in EVE for it....

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lin Dze

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: jamesw
Devs are people too

Indeed, grats to all cheating devs! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

Fixed it for you.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

It's in the logs of the forums and pms he posted, Shin, where dbp and Judicator finally decided that no real life cash would change hands for it. I don't have the logs, I'm sure you can sign up to kugs sight for them if you wish.

Either way, dbp says no money changed hands, I believe him, ccp haven't banned him, proof enough for me.

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

Jud left the game and gave the character, gratis, to dbp.

Ok, again plausable, though apparently decreasingly so...

I'm trying to be pretty objective here dude and even after this statement, I will try and be so. I would not expect so many other people to believe this though.

You admit that Judicator was transferred from the original owner to dbp.
If this was done gratis, then we have only your word to say so.
This would imply that there is no possible way for CCP to proove that cash was/wasn't exchanged.

So at the very least this shows that, other than someones word, there is no proof available to any of us. So I think that your statement about the accusation being proven to be complete rubbish, is infact, ironically, complete rubbish.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

The "prosecution" doesn't need conclusive proof, but the defense does?

Seriously Shin, get a grip mate.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: The Mittani
Occam's razor simply says that you are a liar. It is the simplest explanation, and the best. Just as the simplest explanation of Anthonyz is that he is a malicious hacker, and that this 'he was given a db dump' of RKK's forums is utter nonsense. All the parties in this lovely little tiff have blood all over their hands.

It is the simplest because you want it to be, Mittani, that doesn't make it correct.

Kugs needed sensationalism, you didn't have this kind of drama sitting within your boards, so why would he need to be?

AnthonyZ doesn't need to be smart to sensationalise a story, it's something anyone that reads a tabloid newspaper can do.

If Kugu goes for sensationalism, and we didn't have this kind of drama within our boards, your argument suggests that he would fabricate allegations to get that sensationalism he needs. You also state than anyone can sensationalize something, that they don't need to be 'smart'.

Except that his drivel about us was raw, unedited copy&pastes from our forums. Not spiced up. Not spruced up. Not 'tabloidized' to make it more interesting.

If I am to believe your explanation, Kugu has suddenly grown the ability to not only lie, but also convincingly imitate your particular style of posting. That while he did not bother sensationalizing the leaks from goonfleet, but he did with yours.

It is much more reasonable, given the ferocity with which you mash the post button and the way in which you are flailing, to accept that you are simply a liar.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:36:00 +0000

Originally by: XirtamVotf
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found? From Sir Molle

I think that you personally posting player personnel
Info on the forums is a bannable offense correct?
You editing and removing AFTER half of the EVE community already read the post says alot that your still in game eh ?

Still trying to get in cheap digs i see ?
Fyi the info Molle posted (and edited) contained no direct rl information apart from a town in a certain country. The nickname Molle used to call him, which the mods removed from all further posts was the one used by Mr.K himself both on the goon forums and how he identified himself on various occasions.

As for the rest of your accusations, an edited post before a mod looks is as good as a non existant post, one can always see the light of his own wrongdoings....

As for the request to kieron i oddly agree with you.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Saint Juniper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:35:00 +0000
"The objective of an internal enquiry is not to find the truth but rather to clear those involved"

Good to know all it's been done about this is toss red tape all over it.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Phoenix Pryde
LOL @ all these dimwitted BoB haters and other slightly biased folk ...

The one issue were most of you guys cling on is that some Char who was seemingly played by a dev handed his BPOs to his former corp before leaving. If anybody would try to look objectively at that he d know that having 10 BPOs (even gaining them from lottery) is by far no single event, i know plenty of people to who that applies. If one reads Kieron's statement one sees that everything is logged and can be checked upon.

Naturally, if one isnt interested in truth or fact, but simply cares about making somebody (BoB seems to be the target of choice here) look bad then this a perfect opportunity for one hell of a flamefest, isnt it ? :P

Who in his right mind trying to be somewhat objective and using his brain could not assume that CCP as a rather serious company, and by now also not so small anymore, has the measures and means to prevent and/or verify any misconduct.

The sheer biased-ness and hypocricy of many posters is quite obvious and anything but productive. You guys only ruin your own gameplay if you actually start to believe what you write.

The statement isnt all-encompassing nor giving too many details. Quite right. But thats not needed. One has the choice to actually read it and take it as it is. Or to ignore it a ramble about what one would have liked to see. From what i read here most ppl's choice was the latter. I for one am content with it

I guess i might be called a BoB alt now, but well, i ve been called a G alt before too, and i can assure you neither is true :P

Thank you. You have restored my faith in humanity.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Liet Traep

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...
Ah morals. We had a laugh on vent about a BoB member mentioning that word. I'm assuming you didn't choke or catch on fire when saying it? Just curious. As for cancelling my subscriptions. I will wait and see if CCP makes an open disclosure. If I don't feel they are I might take a break. Check out what else is going on in the MMORPG world. Read a book. Do something else. My response is based on how I feel CCP handles this situation.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stahlregen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:29:00 +0000
Edited by: Stahlregen on 07/02/2007 15:28:33
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ayd_OAOsAgs

f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:28:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani
Occam's razor simply says that you are a liar. It is the simplest explanation, and the best. Just as the simplest explanation of Anthonyz is that he is a malicious hacker, and that this 'he was given a db dump' of RKK's forums is utter nonsense. All the parties in this lovely little tiff have blood all over their hands.

It is the simplest because you want it to be, Mittani, that doesn't make it correct.

Kugs needed sensationalism, you didn't have this kind of drama sitting within your boards, so why would he need to be?

AnthonyZ doesn't need to be smart to sensationalise a story, it's something anyone that reads a tabloid newspaper can do.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gummi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:26:00 +0000
It's times like these where you see how low this community has fallen. It's all very sad really.

I think kieron underestimated the amount of information it would take to settle this, because 6-12months ago this is all it would have taken.

But I think he said it best 7 months ago..
Originally by: kieron

If you are a part of the community that believes the Devs are cheating/hacking/, then there is not really much any representative of CCP can do to disuade you from that line of thinking. Accusations and responses can be posted until the thread is in the hundreds of pages and there will still be one more "what about this..." to address.

Long and short of it, you either believe the Devs and continue to play EVE, or you don't believe the Devs and you chose whether or not to continue playing EVE.

Oveur has stated that Dev cheating and abuse won't be tolerated. I've echo'ed the same for the vols. We are all fervent supporters of EVE and don't want to risk our jobs over a small game advantage.

Linkage

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: The Mittani
I'm sure that Dianabolic would tell us all sorts of amazing lovely things that could exonerate him, but of course he's been "Sworn to Secrecy".

Band of Developers.

Just sayin'.

You do realise, Mittani, that that particular quote is one that I've never said?

That it's made up?

"CCP" have never spoken to me in any other capacity than moderator mails or kieron replying to my mails.

They've certainly never sworn me to secrecy

It's a great (mis)quote tho, I may even use it in a sig. It's just one example of poor old kugs flowering up his "data" a bit too much.

AnthonyZ is practically an Asperger's syndrome test case. He has no formal education and English is his second or possibly third language. He has no social skills to speak of, despite all he spews forth about 'social engineering'. When he splattered the contents of our forums all over here, it was a direct copy and paste... and quite boring. If he was the faking type, he could have gone for a much more convincing 'big lie' that the nauseating hypocrites that inhabit this forum would buy hook line and sinker, perhaps something about Remedial killing babies or worshipping Satan.

I have no reason to believe, given his past behavior, that he has suddenly been granted the ability to convincingly fake english language and diction, much less match your own personal style of speaking.

Occam's razor simply says that you are a liar. It is the simplest explanation, and the best. Just as the simplest explanation of Anthonyz is that he is a malicious hacker, and that this 'he was given a db dump' of RKK's forums is utter nonsense. All the parties in this lovely little tiff have blood all over their hands.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

It's in the logs of the forums and pms he posted, Shin, where dbp and Judicator finally decided that no real life cash would change hands for it. I don't have the logs, I'm sure you can sign up to kugs sight for them if you wish.

Either way, dbp says no money changed hands, I believe him, ccp haven't banned him, proof enough for me.

That is, of course, entirerly possible. But its not excalty conclusive proof that will shut up everyone is it? So passing it off like that in an arrogant sort of way isn't really helping is it?

Also, Judicator is still in Reikoku. What happened?

Jud left the game and gave the character, gratis, to dbp.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:24:00 +0000
Edited by: Dianabolic on 07/02/2007 15:20:50
Originally by: Nyack
so you say blacklight, sirmolle etc have no value what so ever and that is the collective bob that does the magic.. of course 5 people have impact in an allliance if they are part of the leadership.. it isnt a matter if they did all the difference it is a matter of tipping the scale..

Nyack, dear chap, that's a mighty big "etc".

Without molle would we be as effective? Surely not. Without BL? Surely not. Without reath? Surely not. How about Valora? Surely not.

If we lose ANY of our pilots, it effects our effectiveness, but so much that we aren't what we are?

Are you serious?

When we first hit Delve and left the north, we did so without molle or BL (iirc, I know he took a long sabbatical for some time around then). Over time we've gone without many of our "Major" players, and many of our "minor" but JUST as important players.

I said...

"Yes, it must be that the devs are the only reason BoB win, that must be it."

We don't play with Devs. We play with characters, normal eve pilots - if one of those pilots turns out to be a dev, I really don't care, because they never got treated any different by me, or anyone else.

Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tomic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:24:00 +0000
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 15:23:13
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2460/bobspacesg3.jpg

LOl - Suggested alterations to the alliance map.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Enjolras

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:19:00 +0000
What the heck, bro? http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ was my favorite blog, why was it replaced?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:18:00 +0000

Originally by: The Mittani
I'm sure that Dianabolic would tell us all sorts of amazing lovely things that could exonerate him, but of course he's been "Sworn to Secrecy".

Band of Developers.

Just sayin'.

You do realise, Mittani, that that particular quote is one that I've never said?

That it's made up?

"CCP" have never spoken to me in any other capacity than moderator mails or kieron replying to my mails.

They've certainly never sworn me to secrecy

It's a great (mis)quote tho, I may even use it in a sig. It's just one example of poor old kugs flowering up his "data" a bit too much.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Nyack

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:16:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 14:47:52
Originally by: Dianabolic
We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us

Too good? or too many devs?

I suppose its a chicken and egg situation.

Yes, it must be that the devs are the only reason BoB win, that must be it.

Out of 1k characters, 200 active pilots, those 5 surely must make alllllll the difference...

so you say blacklight, sirmolle etc have no value what so ever and that is the collective bob that does the magic.. of course 5 people have impact in an allliance if they are part of the leadership.. it isnt a matter if they did all the difference it is a matter of tipping the scale..

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by gofoi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Auman
Originally by: UKM Thorgrim
Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 07/02/2007 14:48:32
Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

End of march for UKM Thorgrim. I wont renew it

Also As a member of UKM i wont condone Cheating.. it spoils the Game for every one ELSE.

(thats from an adult, not some Kiddy that plays agame).

Well thats very sad to see someone leaving the game over this kudos for being honest though. I do think the evidence you base all of this on is very suspect and a better statement from CCP would clear this up.

I'm sure something like:

dbp buying accounts : untrue (add proof)
molle having fun with ebayers : untrue - they weren't ebayers (add proof)
diana beeing informated of ig events : true - diana banned, assets deleted (add proof)
10 bpos given by dev to BOB : true - all BPOS removed, 100B fee to x y and z (add proof)

... would be just great.

(ofc this is all untrue, was giving an example)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by fuze

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:13:00 +0000
Sack dev(s) and ban characters involved (including mr K.).

Nuff said

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by The Mittani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:12:00 +0000
I'm sure that Dianabolic would tell us all sorts of amazing lovely things that could exonerate him, but of course he's been "Sworn to Secrecy".

Band of Developers.

Just sayin'.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by XirtamVotf

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:12:00 +0000
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found? From Sir Molle

I think that you personally posting player personnel
Info on the forums is a bannable offense correct?
You editing and removing AFTER half of the EVE community already read the post says alot that your still in game eh ?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sable Schroedinger

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:12:00 +0000
bah! Grow the hell up you guys!!!

If you didn't read the actual allegations, you have no place in screaming foul here. Cos the 3rd + hand made up drivel is just plain counter productive.

As a note, I've seen 1 player gain more BPOs than the ones here through the lottery! Its not unknown. And this tin hat rubbish is just plain childish!

Grow the hell up!

Whatever CCP say at this point doesn't matter. There are people out there that want blood, and even if they get it, they're still going to whine because they didn't benefit from whatever was done!

And to all you emo [hand stapled to forehead], "I'm going to leave and so are all my friends" foot stompers. Leave already and stop bleating!

Companies don't reveal internal personell issues to customers. So all this "wah wah wah I'm a paying customer, gimme everything I want" is just fantasy talk. Get over it.

Either you trust CCP to sort the issue: Shut up and get on with playing

or

You don't: Shut up and leave.

14 pages of whining is just plain sickening!

--------------------------------------------

Join Now

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kaeten

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:11:00 +0000
The exployees shoudl of been fired, whats to stop this from happening again.

Pwnage PvP Recruitment

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Stahlregen
Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 14:47:52
Originally by: Dianabolic
We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us

Too good? or too many devs?

I suppose its a chicken and egg situation.

:MASTERSTROKE:

Don't you have other forums to spam Stahlregen? shoo.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stahlregen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:11:00 +0000
Edited by: Stahlregen on 07/02/2007 15:11:11
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Laythun
The press release says nothing at all.

No content, nothing. Just marketing words for 'we banned him, we think wat he did was bad, we like to make money, we are giving you no answer'

Im pretty disappointed.

This statement will not put the issue behind us because its a cop out. Basically he was banned and thats it, no word on anything else that happened.

As someone who works in marketing
tut tut CCP.

No ban, his chars got deleted because people discovered his ccp identity, not because he actually did something wrong.

It's the usual policy, and there's mroe devs affected then those in bob too afaik.

Are you ignoring the fact that it was the Devs themselves that ignored their own rules and were the ones that revealed themselves as being Devs, Or is this like some kind of Bizarro world where accountability is polarised and shifted from the ones responsible to the ones who called them on it?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shinoobie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 14:47:52
Originally by: Dianabolic
We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us

Too good? or too many devs?

I suppose its a chicken and egg situation.

Yes, it must be that the devs are the only reason BoB win, that must be it.

Out of 1k characters, 200 active pilots, those 5 surely must make alllllll the difference...

All were asking for is an honest and detailed reply from CCP. The only reason you guys are getting slated now is because your trying to defend the situation, which you can't do being part of the alleged party.

People need to hear it from CCP not you guys.

Elite Scouting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Kaeten
The exployees shoudl of been fired, whats to stop this from happening again.

Why, they did nothign wrong ?
[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:10:00 +0000
Grr

there is no proof in virtual environments. We're dealing with two factors: pixels and human nature. Neither is exactly bug free.

So folks put a lid on it. Want to be mad? Direct it at the ones who fuel the fire, the fire which ties up a lot of good people from other more pressing affairs, as well as a great many others who's perceptions and game perspectives are at stake.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Juan Andalusian

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Therem Harth
I also feel that bobbits per se should stop doing a cyvok and acknowledge the fact that at least partially they themselves brought it onto the heads of their friends.

I agree only to the point that we underestimated the malevolance and idiocy of certain members of this community.

This reminds me of people blaiming counterstrike or other fps games when some maniac goes into a killing spree.

I already stated that our ingame stance is harsh and arrogant to put it mildy but that not how we'd face a real situation like this one, unless of course it would spiral down to what we are reading now :(.

Is it really our fault that people are unable to separate the two?

**Pain is meant to be felt**

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 14:47:52
Originally by: Dianabolic
We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us

Too good? or too many devs?

I suppose its a chicken and egg situation.

Yes, it must be that the devs are the only reason BoB win, that must be it.

Out of 1k characters, 200 active pilots, those 5 surely must make alllllll the difference...
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

It wasn't.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by gofoi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

Please do.

Diana, either we are not on the same level of information, in wich case you should post the proof you have, either it's a bad lie.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Irrilian

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:07:00 +0000
It is vital for the game that Devs/GMs/ISD/etc play the game, however Eve is a Machiavellian sand box of player rivalries, politics and warfare. Whatever the truth of them, just the allegations alone that the playing field might not be level has rocked the credibility of the game. Thus a suggestion on how to move forward from this in the long term:

Issue: You don't just have to be fair, you need to be seen to be fair.

Problem: The possibility of a conflict of interests of Devs/GMs/ISD between their alt accounts in corporations and alliances and their privileged knowledge, abilities, etc.

Problem: Paid employees (Devs and GMs) must be kept in touch with the real game. Additionally it is unreasonable to expect player volunteers to forfeit their accounts and not actually play the game.

Factional warfare has been muted, players belonging to the empires actually being able to effect the fortunes of their empires by doing things to assist them, be it missions or even raiding other members of opposing empires. A problem with this is that it could be a rather amorphous thing lacking any real sense of leadership and direction. Why not place Devs/GMs/ISD as the leadership of such factions: a couple of devs and a group of lieutenants drawn from GMs/ISD helping to provide focus and direct the energies of the broader more casual non alliance player base? Its no small thing to ask a Dev or volunteer to resign their position in their corporation or alliance, but such a move would help both draw a line under recent events and help kick start a new element in the game.
- - -
PIs and Forensic Accountants: adding risk vs reward for scams and thievery

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

It's in the logs of the forums and pms he posted, Shin, where dbp and Judicator finally decided that no real life cash would change hands for it. I don't have the logs, I'm sure you can sign up to kugs sight for them if you wish.

Either way, dbp says no money changed hands, I believe him, ccp haven't banned him, proof enough for me.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Laythun
The press release says nothing at all.

No content, nothing. Just marketing words for 'we banned him, we think wat he did was bad, we like to make money, we are giving you no answer'

Im pretty disappointed.

This statement will not put the issue behind us because its a cop out. Basically he was banned and thats it, no word on anything else that happened.

As someone who works in marketing
tut tut CCP.

No ban, his chars got deleted because people discovered his ccp identity, not because he actually did something wrong.

It's the usual policy, and there's mroe devs affected then those in bob too afaik.

[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Auman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:06:00 +0000

Originally by: UKM Thorgrim
Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 07/02/2007 14:48:32
Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

End of march for UKM Thorgrim. I wont renew it

Also As a member of UKM i wont condone Cheating.. it spoils the Game for every one ELSE.

(thats from an adult, not some Kiddy that plays agame).

Well thats very sad to see someone leaving the game over this kudos for being honest though. I do think the evidence you base all of this on is very suspect and a better statement from CCP would clear this up.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?

Show me where this was proven to be complete rubbish.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Thon Enay

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:01:00 +0000
http://eve-files.com/dl/86717

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Severian Maura

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:58:00 +0000
I recently caught one of my empolyees givng our product away at a discoutn to a friend of hers. I docked her pay the difference and sent her home for the week with no pay. Here is an individual who was giving away real money to a friend of hers and new if she got got caught she would get in trouble.

How easy do you think it is for some in CCP who is BoB to give away virtual money and property especially when they dont get punished for it.

CCP change your policy, Hell it would eve be nice if BoB changed theres but then they wouldnt have anymore adavantages in the game in more.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stahlregen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Tomic
Edited by: Tomic on 07/02/2007 14:47:52
Originally by: Dianabolic
We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us

Too good? or too many devs?

I suppose its a chicken and egg situation.

:MASTERSTROKE:

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Skrypt

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:56:00 +0000
This is a witch hunt and it's asinine. Seems to be there's an assault on a name in such a fashion simply because the war can't be waged in-game.

While I appreciate the response of CCP in this matter, I personally find their actions extreme. This isn't to say I don't understand their policy.
----------

"I know. I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men."
Malcom Wallace (Braveheart)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Laythun

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:55:00 +0000
The press release says nothing at all.

No content, nothing. Just marketing words for 'we banned him, we think wat he did was bad, we like to make money, we are giving you no answer'

Im pretty disappointed.

This statement will not put the issue behind us because its a cop out. Basically he was banned and thats it, no word on anything else that happened.

As someone who works in marketing
tut tut CCP.

CEI's own Undercover Brother [MIA]
It's great being Amarr, aint it?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ather Ialeas

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:53:00 +0000
This thread is interesting, every time I hit F5 the content changes dramatically even though the amount of posts doesn't.

Oh and seems like BoD controls eve-files too, I uploaded a picture of t20's site there before it was changed to pi and all I got was

You have received a Warning!

Reason:
This is a warning for uploading non Eve related files. A ban will be used on the next offence. Eve-Files rules: http://eve-files.com/removed

Ban in effect until Expired [current: 2007-02-07 15:46:48] [BAN ID:960]

I do get the message though. I'm out.
---
Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances.
---

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Virtuozzo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:53:00 +0000
Avon, Kcel, Rod > your approaching is not working, you're dealing with human nature here. All you are effectuating is reinforcing the direct result of Kieron's post failing to address both actual and factual matters, events and trends.

Look, for all those who think Kieron is going to post again with more investigation results, read what he said. The matter is closed. This is it.

For those who still aim for damage control by means of reason, reason does not apply to human nature. Say a thank you to CCP for seeding a new batch of fuel for the campfire with this post. Now it is up to you to throw it on, or not. Regardless of the content of the post each message equals fuel. I can only say that those who do care and want to put the factual data on the table have an opening in Kieron's message.

Look folks, this topic will get locked soon, as Kieron has made it clear that the matter is now closed, so how is any response here going to change that. All you have now is more fuel for more witchhunts and the interesting confirmation that the metagaming and social engineering entaglements within and beyond terms of agreements are fine once enough time has passed for the logs to expire IN THE PERCEPTION of those who care less then some of us about this game.

This thread, and the topic of it, now only deals with attempts to control perception. Time to wake up then, because you can't control perception, it is a human element. It could be argued that with silencing that kugu guy this might be possible, but this topic has gone so far and deep now that this is not the case. It will only be possible to predetermine perception on the matter for a new batch of subscribers to EVE say around 6 months from now. So stop wasting time on it.

So CCP failed to deliver. Fine, that is up to them to either have decided on, or to act on. Move along. It affects any and all sides in the debate, as well as the big majority of silent people who are only now waking up to things (and as EVE attracts folks with minds of their own they are folks who dig for themselves largely). Yes, it could be said that anyone involved and affected feels a bit screwed over here as the core issues (not the event arcs, but the core issues) have now been polarised to an extent which may very well take the situation to a point of no repair.

Corporate mumbo jumbo does not help when dealing with issues around topics and environments people care about. You either address the core issues, or you do not bother. But polarising the matter is even worse.

Virtuozzo

RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!"

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by ceaon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:52:00 +0000
CCP why edit t20 web page ?
give us the old web page and wee are "happy"
+
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Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Tomic
Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Quote:
however it is rather obvious that BoB reap what they sow.

At no point did any BoB director or leader ever deny the possibility of CCP employees of any level or station being part of the alliance.

A Dev identity being disclosed doesn't contradict any of the statements made by BoB.

Any chance we'll get back to page one with this ? Backpedalling 4tw.

Lack of memory for the win?

We've said it countless times, we're too good at this game for the devs NOT to watch us
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Razor Jaxx
My take on this :

- Outed Devs :

It is my understanding that Devs are allowed to play the game under the proviso that their CCP identity remains hidden at all times, including to their in-game friends and corpmates. The Devs that have been outed brought this upon themselves by failing to comply to this capital rule (if you can't understand why this rule is in place, you need a functional brain). The how and why the information became known to the general public is irrelevant - the general public wouldn't have known anything if said Devs had kept a low profile in the first place. Character recycling is normal under the circumstances.

- Dev corp policing :

I've read here and there people complaining about Dev characters not policing their alliance when witnessing borderline (or EULA-violating) actions. This is bull****. You can't ask of Devs to play and act as regular players on one hand, and ask them to play as Devs when they witness suspicious actions. This, however, exposes one of the "grey areas" of letting Devs play as general community members : What is a supposedly secret Dev character to do when faced with EULA violations on his player account? Act as a Dev? Block the info out with a mind eraser? You see the problem.

- BPOs allegations :

Nowhere have I seen the slightest evidence that these BPOs were acquired malevolently. This is pure urban myth and speculation. It is not uncommon to hear of players who have won several T2 BPOs in the lottery. As far as we can tell, those BPOs were acquired legitimately, and if their rightful owner's decision is to donate them to his corporation upon leaving, then so be it, there is nothing wrong with this, it is actually quite common.

- ISD allegations :

Even though those haven't been addressed, Kenshin's revelations were by far the most disturbing to me, in the sense that is was an actual acknowledgement of unpunished foul play by its very own perpetrator. What is CCP going to do about this, and what assurances will we be given?

- CCP's handling of the issue :

It's been said countless of times in this thread, so I won't elaborate needlessly. Where the audience was expecting clear answers, it received a vague statement instead, that not only does very little to help, but actually makes the issue worse by creating more speculation while failing to clear the innocent of any wrongdoings. As for the bit about internal auditing - I'll play the devil's advocate here : this is an oxymoron. Serious auditing is never internal. I mean, who's going the audit the auditeers' playing accounts? (yes, I'm being cheeky, but you see my point).

imma gonna use that, thanks Razor.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

End of march for UKM Thorgrim. I wont renew it

Also As a member of UKM i wont condone Cheating.. it spoils the Game for every one ELSE.

(thats from an adult, not sone Kiddy that plays agame).

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tomic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Quote:
however it is rather obvious that BoB reap what they sow.

At no point did any BoB director or leader ever deny the possibility of CCP employees of any level or station being part of the alliance.

A Dev identity being disclosed doesn't contradict any of the statements made by BoB.

Any chance we'll get back to page one with this ? Backpedalling 4tw.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by MrTriggerHappy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:43:00 +0000
Firstly: Wow this topic is flying!!!

Secondly:

Quote:
We hope that this statement will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community.

I'm sorry but I do not believe that you've actually answered anything to prove that this topic should be left behind Kieron.

Why?

Well in your post you mentioned about the allegations to what have been made, you also go onto mention that devs have to leave their in game friends and make new characters.
However this isnt addressing the issue as to what was done with the original allegations.

Was there any proof?
Was anyone punished if there was?

I have no issues with the devs playing the game, it's their game, they change things by all means. However it could be seen as a conflict of interest if they are in the major alliances and will eventually lead to further distrust in the player-ccp relathionship, to which reading from other posts is really minimal at the minute.

What I would like to see, as i believe many others is a conclusion to this, if the investigation is over and what CCP's results were and what has/will happened to the people involved.
--------------------------------

My Comments in no way reflect my corp or alliance

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Betty Rubble

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:42:00 +0000
If a dev got a series of BPOs and gave them to BoB then that's PROOF that BoB has an advantage through cheating. Here's how:

1 - Dev KNEW before any regular player what skills, what standing and what other resources would be necessary for the upcomming "lottery" that would grant T2 BPOs.
2 - Dev obtained these skills KNOWINGLY before other players knew the same details.
3 - Dev worked on their standings KNOWINGLY before other players knew how beneficial they would be.
4 - Dev KNEW which fields of science would produce what would likely be the most profitable and useful of all BPOs distributed, and KNEW better than any regular player which fields had what chances of getting such BPOs.
5 - Dev had a head start on gaining BPOs above and beyond any player who does not have access to dev information, that is, regular customers.
6 - Dev obtains BPOs using his advantageous information and ends up giving them to BoB for his own PERSONAL reasons.
7 - BoB has obtained valuable in-game items through the advantage granted to them by having such dev in their alliance, an advantage over other alliances in the game of which are competetive.

Conclusion - BoB has an advantage over other alliances due to the fact that a dev joined them.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by gofoi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:42:00 +0000
lucky for BOB i got the whole thing sorted out.

On a more serious note,

BOB members are saying that K. haxed their forums, but still we had Diana saying that the whole story was made up.

I realy hope that we also have devs in our alliance (COL have lots of icelandic people so why not) this is no big deal, they should always participate in the game operations as it is a way to enhance the gaming experience.

They should, however, have a line not to cross, between participating and making a difference. Leading or beeing lead.

Anyways, much more accusations have been thrown at BOB's leader's face and, as Rod stated, I would like to see a bigger answer going from each accusation to each accusation, even if it should take one month.

But please, BOB, don't come here as a victim, as Rod also stated, RA has always been called E-bayers, AAA exploiters and so on (personnal experience) so don't come here crying as a victim.

No one hates you, hate doesn't belong here, we're all indignated. Some don't understand towards who the indignation should point but this ain't our fault, considering that we have some amazing answers of the devs considering this issue.

I don't have time to hate BOB, I'm way too selfish, I would just like to see the devs put more heart into a Public Report that could have the force to change EVE's face.

Bring us all facts, may it be a 10 page report, I don't care.

I'm sure that I'm in the exact same situation of some BOB members (if not all - appart from Molle who still didn't understood the situation), awaiting for answers, real concrete answers.

But, what amazes me the most, is think that some people in BOB actualy thought (if true) that they would need that cheating to win when, as a matter of fact, they had all cards in hand to achieve what they've done in a normal way.

I will still be looking at this thread hoping that we'll get some more answers.

Until then, no one is guilty for anything.

I'm very sorry for my english grammar.

/Omeega

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:42:00 +0000
I don't see how anything urban II has posted is in any way controversial or against EULA?

I'd also love to hear what EULA RKK has broken, considering the only one that anyone has accused us of (buying a char for cash) was subsequently proven to be complete rubbish?
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Razor Jaxx

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:41:00 +0000
My take on this :

- Outed Devs :

It is my understanding that Devs are allowed to play the game under the proviso that their CCP identity remains hidden at all times, including to their in-game friends and corpmates. The Devs that have been outed brought this upon themselves by failing to comply to this capital rule (if you can't understand why this rule is in place, you need a functional brain). The how and why the information became known to the general public is irrelevant - the general public wouldn't have known anything if said Devs had kept a low profile in the first place. Character recycling is normal under the circumstances.

- Dev corp policing :

I've read here and there people complaining about Dev characters not policing their alliance when witnessing borderline (or EULA-violating) actions. This is bull****. You can't ask of Devs to play and act as regular players on one hand, and ask them to play as Devs when they witness suspicious actions. This, however, exposes one of the "grey areas" of letting Devs play as general community members : What is a supposedly secret Dev character to do when faced with EULA violations on his player account? Act as a Dev? Block the info out with a mind eraser? You see the problem.

- BPOs allegations :

Nowhere have I seen the slightest evidence that these BPOs were acquired malevolently. This is pure urban myth and speculation. It is not uncommon to hear of players who have won several T2 BPOs in the lottery. As far as we can tell, those BPOs were acquired legitimately, and if their rightful owner's decision is to donate them to his corporation upon leaving, then so be it, there is nothing wrong with this, it is actually quite common.

- ISD allegations :

Even though those haven't been addressed, Kenshin's revelations were by far the most disturbing to me, in the sense that is was an actual acknowledgement of unpunished foul play by its very own perpetrator. What is CCP going to do about this, and what assurances will we be given?

- CCP's handling of the issue :

It's been said countless of times in this thread, so I won't elaborate needlessly. Where the audience was expecting clear answers, it received a vague statement instead, that not only does very little to help, but actually makes the issue worse by creating more speculation while failing to clear the innocent of any wrongdoings. As for the bit about internal auditing - I'll play the devil's advocate here : this is an oxymoron. Serious auditing is never internal. I mean, who's going the audit the auditeers' playing accounts? (yes, I'm being cheeky, but you see my point).

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Juan Andalusian

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:40:00 +0000
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 07/02/2007 14:43:36
Quote:
however it is rather obvious that BoB reap what they sow.

At no point did any BoB director or leader ever deny the possibility of CCP employees of any level or station being part of the alliance.

A Dev identity being disclosed doesn't contradict any of the statements made by BoB.

And yes we will smack and we will belittle the people who doubt us ingame and on the COAD forums. One cannot claim that it's the same with a real life issue though, such as this, and pretend to be unable to distinguish between being a d*ck ingame and being mature in face of serious matters.

Look at Shin Ra for example, notoriously known for laying down the ego boosting and smack, but fully capable of talking sense and seriously when the situation calls for it.

**Pain is meant to be felt**

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:40:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 14:40:57
Goons, I know you probably dont care, but the bit you keep quoting contains personal information about a ccp employee. You know, the stuff that you aren't allowed to post according to the eula.

I don't doubt CCP are going to run out of patience on that at some point. Names don't matter, and besides that name it doesn't prove a thing does it ?

The points about char resale and eula abuse are conjecture. I happen to know that the ones mentioned aren't true. You think they are, CCP thinks theyT not.

quit or stfu ?

[center]
Old blog

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Obivan Efa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:40:00 +0000
What a resonance...
CCP should solve this problem and quickly or it will be the sunset of the EVE. Who will play a card game for money with the known card-sharper and cheater?

As soon as CCP admited those facts of BoD they should

1. Find all involved in cheating chars/corps/alliances and punish them all hard as an example for the future. Make the results of this actions public.
2. Take effective actions to prevent such crisis in future. This system should be open for community and unbiassed. Nobody will take on trust what CCP will say in such cases anymore.

We are paying customers and have rights to demand a good game service for our money including good CCP/community interaction.
If CCP will spit upon the community it will be not a big deal but if our community will spit upon CCP - it will be lost.
____________________________

Die, but perish! - viking's war-cry

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Juan Andalusian
Originally by: Shin Ra
Its a grey area. AFAIK there are no rules regarding the specifics of such an occurance. You or I might not care, but plenty of people do. There are various ways to look at it. For example, lets say Khatred was a dev in burn eden. He gets caught and leaves us 1 trillion isk worth of t2 bpos. We then buy 10 titans. Fair? Not really. The case with BOB is clearly on a much lower scale but its arguable that the same principal could apply.

Not quite.

To carry on with your example:

You mean all this time from the point Khatred joined BE to the point he was exposed as a dev, since caught would imply he did something wrong, that BE wouldnt have benefited from his bpos?

Well maybe in your corp members dont help each other in any way, but what if it was a commie corp? would it matter? The corp or alliance would have benefited from that trilion isk either way wether the dev identity had been compromised or not.

The issues are the legality of the isk and assets, which you yourself didnt doubt, and the question of whether the corp or alliance benefited exclusively from communication with the dev which Kieron's reply didnt clarify much unfortunately.

Yes and I think given the potential for unfair on unbalanced effects, it we seem to be common sense that all assets be deleted along with the character. Just because an argument is put forward saying it didn't make any difference, doesn't mean it couldn't have made any difference. Even if everything you guys are saying is true, surely you can admit that this situation has the potential to be unfair and at the very least, clearer rules are needed on this topic.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Viktor VonCarstein

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:33:00 +0000
Remaining neutral on the fence as it were, however.....

More in depth details are required before the player base will be satisfied. This is a serious issue that requires a serious response.

Not some brush off statement such as we see from the military trying to cover things up.

If this issue is not cleared up I will also cancel my accounts and hand my stuff to my corp mates. (if any remain)

60% if not more of the people I have spoken so have said they will cancel their accounts if this issue is not sorted.(many of these are over 2 and 3 years old) While this would help lag it certainly won't help CCP's wallet.

http://sprayandpray.xippy.co.uk

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Therem Harth

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine

That they are always referred to as ebayers says nothing. Half of RA is referred to as ebayers, yet that doesn't mean we really believe them to be when we say it. And it most certainly doesn't mean you're not buying their **** ingame does it ?

Could it mean that perhaps it would serve everyone better if they said less things they do not believe in (know to be false) out loud?

I do not subscribe to the blatant dribbling witch-hunt in progress here; however it is rather obvious that BoB reap what they sow. It is rather futile to try and say you are reveling in the "bad guys" image ingame and then put on "mature guys" posture when cornered on forums. The stain of the first kind of inevitably leaks through and mars the latter. Therefore, it is readily apparent that not very much loyal understanding of your pain because of possibly unfounded accusations is to be found around here.

Getting back on topic, I understand that all of this is probably quite painful and discomforting for CCP; however being a company which not only develops, but also runs the game (that is, as a commercial MMOG operator), there is only one way to handle this: unspin. Go full disclosure on violations (of course when you have taken your time to really investigate), and apply all rules for everyone squarely. If, say, dbp is found to be not guilty of anything - say it out loud, costs you nothing and is a definitive authoritative statement (as opposed to public gnawing at cliffhangers). If SirMolle publicly posts RL information about a player and is proved to - ban him, on common grounds, without all the childish countdowns on who hacked who first. Acting firmly, decisively and openly will minimize the hurt for the company, and, after all, we know you can do that, as evidenced before (4S naming crisis, anyone?).

And as to the allegations flying around in this thread, I suggest people come to their senses. It is rather obvious that machinations with T2 BPOs and other instanced objects (including isk) in the game are very easily traced. What IS the problem is the inside/early information leaking. In this game knowing something is the key, and knowing something earlier, or something others don't - gives you a very real and substantial edge (say, POS towers price change in RMR, as a fleeting example). However, it is impossible to fully control and/or investigate. How'd you imagine that? Require a sworn affidavit "I haven't told anyone anything" from every dev, to be witnessed in Hallgrimskirkja? What if s/he blurted something out on #eve-chaos and forgot about it the next day? This can't even be monitored properly. The only thing that can be done is internal CCP cultivation of "don't leak stuff" policy, done in an explanatory way conducive to internal company culture. And all you people crying cheatshaxomgusuck can't do that anyway, so maybe take a napkin and step back a few steps? :)
--

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Urban II

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:31:00 +0000
Edited by: Urban II on 07/02/2007 14:32:28
Edited by: Urban II on 07/02/2007 14:30:40
29 Jun 2005, Thryr Merim register with the e-mail address vincent@ccpgames.com

He rejoined as Ishos on Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:03 pm

http://merim.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot...=Thryr%20Merim

Corporation History Reikoku First activity: 2006-02-25 15:10:00

http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?...=Thryr%20Merim
2005-04-19 01:36:00 Thryr Merim Developmental Neogenics Amalgamate
2004-09-25 22:53:00 Thryr Merim m0o Corp

Quote:

Pilot: Ishos Rerajan (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Amarr
Licenced: Amarr BS, Amarr BC, Amarr Command Ships, Amarr Interdictors, Amarr Cloakers, Amarr HAC, Amarr Interceptors
Notes: Maxed out Armored Warfare + Command ships + mindlink

Pilot: Thryr Merim (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Caldari
Licenced: Caldari BS, Caldari BC, Caldari Interdictors, Caldari HAC, Caldari Freighters, Caldari Transport Ships, Caldari Interceptors
Notes: Maxed Out Missile Operation Skills
funny thread where he gives away that he's a dev in the general membership forum

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimensionZ
How counter the fake mails ?

Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:56 am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galavet
cycle the passwords more frequently to cut off people who may have stolen access. Create a password generator that kicks out a mail to all CEOs on a set day of the month.

Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:56 am
Quote:

Originally Posted by dimensionZ
The new killboard will allow ppl to use "free" versions, and only have to pay for advanced features (such as alliances killboard and stuff ...).

So, once opened to public, and with, probably, a general ranking, ppl will try to cheat.
How can we prevent that.

Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:42 am
Quote:

Originally Posted by haze
I have thought about this a lot and not been able to come up with any solution.

Its the same problem with the game lots, as CCP dont do any kind of auth on the logs there is no way to authenticat them.

A simple md5 like hash on each log/killmail would be a nice and simple way for ccp to auth the logs, would make pettitions a lot dam simpler as well.

as it stands though I guess we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

H

Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:16 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
we read your evemail

Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:52 am
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
the system as it is today is a bit obsolete, it's a generated text and the logs only store the one that did most damage as a killer ... we've got plans to store everything in the logs ... more on that later ... low priority atm

Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:53 am
Quote:

Originally Posted by dimensionZ
Thryr Merim wrote:
we read your evemail

Eh ?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:54 am
Quote:

Originally Posted by dimensionZ
Easy way to deal with it.
One click ban.
Delete every killmails posted by this user.
Remove from rankings the username.

Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:55 am
Now if you search for vincent@ccpgames.com you find posts on french forums as t20.

Originally Posted by t20
Vincent. CCPgames Hf. vincent@ccpgames.com
t20 even mentions that he losts his chars.

Now someone leak in that **** thread that:

t20 was Ishos
t20 was in charge of RKK Capital Ship Command
t20 when forced to leave RKK, left 10 T2 BPO behind him.
t20 witness all the RKK EULA abuse, char resale, etc.
t20 is really close to Oveur and they are often seen together on Sisi in local.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Hoshi
If one RKK member found out who was a dev and kept it to himself this would never have happened but the member that found these devs where not ethical enough to do so and spread the knowledge to others in RKK and so here we are.

Actually, it would still have happened, as much of the supposed correspondence was between the accused dev characters and non-dev characters, so your point is moot, and rod is right - it's irrelevant.

You miss the point. If the member in RKK where not ethical enough to keep the knowledge to him/her self how can we be expected to believe they (he and the people he spread it to) would be ethical enough not to try to take advantage of the knowledge?

The minute the knowledge of these devs started to spread among the RKK leadership was the minute these dev chars should have been pulled out, not months later.

The question is relevant because if the answer is "yes they knew" then it means that both the rules and the audit concerning dev chars needs to be revised.

No, I'm afraid it is you that is missing the point.

Read my post again, please.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Eolais

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:30:00 +0000
I think deleting the posts right now is probably the quickest way to remove any plausible deniable stances on this issue. The fact that references to said person (if I even mention it this post will be deleted), the post is deleted.

Seriously, you're sending mixed messages and really just irritating the userbase in the process--adding fuel to the fire, strenghtening the mob. Whether or not it's true, it's not exactly the smartest PR stance to take.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Auman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:29:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

U said morals LMAO a BoB said morals that *****s me up...so u would like us all to cancel out subscriptions??? who would pay your wages??? cheating isnt enough for u so u want everyone to quit so u can say we won? is that it? u make me laugh.

So that's a no? You'll continue to pay for and play a game in which you believe CCP and BoB collectivetly cheat?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Berious

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:25:00 +0000
Hey CCP, deleting posts doesn't make the issue go away. Just sayin'

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tomic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Yes Tomic, that probably was it. I mean, obviously we'd shut up about it not to protect a corpmate from losing his characters and his 3 years of gameplay effort because we like the guy, but so we can have him put his job and dreams on the line for us so we can pwn ASCN in a day or two less (example).

Right.

Grow the **** up

I will try, but I've endured far too much BOB smack in recent months for that to be too likely :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stahlregen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:22:00 +0000
The Dev in question is t20, correct?
I assume so seeing as the expose of him back on page 10 or whatever was deleted.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hoshi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Hoshi
If one RKK member found out who was a dev and kept it to himself this would never have happened but the member that found these devs where not ethical enough to do so and spread the knowledge to others in RKK and so here we are.

Actually, it would still have happened, as much of the supposed correspondence was between the accused dev characters and non-dev characters, so your point is moot, and rod is right - it's irrelevant.

You miss the point. If the member in RKK where not ethical enough to keep the knowledge to him/her self how can we be expected to believe they (he and the people he spread it to) would be ethical enough not to try to take advantage of the knowledge?

The minute the knowledge of these devs started to spread among the RKK leadership was the minute these dev chars should have been pulled out, not months later.

The question is relevant because if the answer is "yes they knew" then it means that both the rules and the audit concerning dev chars needs to be revised.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Susan Acid

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:21:00 +0000
I genuinely feel sorry for the Dev/GM involved but most of the questions raised by Kugu seem to have been sidestepped.Allegations were made against an Alliance and a Dev/GM.The only thing CCP seem to have investigated or commented on is the Dev/GM.They have not adressed the issues brought up by Kugu.
I'm sure that all the Bob members would have preferred a statement absolving them of any wrong doing but CCP never supplied it.The OP does not say that there was no wrong doing by the Dev/GM only that he lost his char because his account was disclosed(which is standard practice)For the sake of the community CCP need to say "Nobody broke the EULA and nobody gained an advantage".
Until they do this will hang around Bobs neck until the servers close.Which imo is unfair to them.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Juan Andalusian

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Its a grey area. AFAIK there are no rules regarding the specifics of such an occurance. You or I might not care, but plenty of people do. There are various ways to look at it. For example, lets say Khatred was a dev in burn eden. He gets caught and leaves us 1 trillion isk worth of t2 bpos. We then buy 10 titans. Fair? Not really. The case with BOB is clearly on a much lower scale but its arguable that the same principal could apply.

Not quite.

To carry on with your example:

You mean all this time from the point Khatred joined BE to the point he was exposed as a dev, since caught would imply he did something wrong, that BE wouldnt have benefited from his bpos?

Well maybe in your corp members dont help each other in any way, but what if it was a commie corp? would it matter? The corp or alliance would have benefited from that trilion isk either way wether the dev identity had been compromised or not.

The issues are the legality of the isk and assets, which you yourself didnt doubt, and the question of whether the corp or alliance benefited exclusively from communication with the dev which Kieron's reply didnt clarify much unfortunately.

**Pain is meant to be felt**

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Auman
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

U said morals LMAO a BoB said morals that *****s me up...so u would like us all to cancel out subscriptions??? who would pay your wages??? cheating isnt enough for u so u want everyone to quit so u can say we won? is that it? u make me laugh.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Gandolf

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:18:00 +0000
the statment was poor in my opinion and asking for this witch hunt of a thread it has turned out to be i would have prefered to wait longer for a better responce from CCP

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kristanna

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Ather Ialeas
To say what I think as simply as I can: Not enough.

Signed

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Pellaeon DuGalle

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:15:00 +0000
Edited by: Pellaeon DuGalle on 07/02/2007 14:12:28
I blink and we're up to 12 pages already.

Personally I wish that if T2 BPOs were not spawned by a Dev, then they would spawn a couple more ASAP. More BPOs will hopefully mean cheaper goods, and even better, one day one of those BPOs will end up in *my* hands. Yum.

edit: grammar

-------------------
"There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra

Your assesment depends on knowing whether or not RKK got 100% of the bpo profits beforehands? If the dev kept some of the profits for himself to buy stuff or whatever, then RKK would still not be recieveing 100% of the bpo profits, as I assume they are doing now. So no, in that sense things are not equal. Of course, you can add things like if we had another pilot here we would have done xyz, but thats apples and oranges.

Its not unlikely that a guy who spends x months in an alliance donates his stuff to them if he knows he has to leave and will never return.

It doesnt matter if its t2 prints like in this case or just ships, mods, chars or other possessions.
If i would leave the game and know i would never return why would i care what happens to my stuff, best give it to the close friends and m8s.

So if the bpos, like you argued above, are legit its also legit to threat them like regular bpos of a quitting customer. Especially since a dev player account is in no way different from a regular player account when it comes to terms of iskies, lootchances, r&d or clientfunctions.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tomic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
If RKK keeping that info to themselves shows anything, it is that they, as opposed to alot of people, can actually be considerate and ethical enough to stfu about it. Why, what a surprise, thought they were all cheating lying lowlifes...

Or they knew having a dev in their corp was a major advantage and giving that info out would remove that advantage and they decided they enjoyed having the advantage.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by R'adeh

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:13:00 +0000
Edited by: R''adeh on 07/02/2007 14:09:24
Disappointing
_______________________________________________

My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Betonela

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:12:00 +0000

Originally by: bioqaz eylee
Originally by: Callistus
Originally by: Apocryphai
http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ Says "t20" in several places there.

Hmm when I first clicked that link it just showed a white page with the CCP logo and the words "Under Construction"

Then it showed a big poster for an old film called "Clue". Beneath it was written in small print "Get one." (lol btw)

Now its just a black page with an exclamation mark.

when i looked, when it was first posted, it was a blog that just had a link to someone's bf2 score card. hehe they edited that quickly.

saved this http://bf2s.com/player/43339543/

---------
join on New Movement of Market Traders

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:12:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 14:10:18
Shin Ra, RKK are alot like Evol, they're maybe not as extreme as we are with our 100% corptax, but they're definately in the "filthy commie" category. So my guess would be that your question would be answered affirmatively.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:10:00 +0000
"others", if it happened at all btw, consists of maybe 3 people in this case. I don't think it happened at all tbh, but even if, that's the extent of it right there.

If RKK keeping that info to themselves shows anything, it is that they, as opposed to alot of people, can actually be considerate and ethical enough to stfu about it. Why, what a surprise, thought they were all cheating lying lowlifes...

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Tomic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Dianabolic
Actually, it would still have happened, as much of the supposed correspondence was between the accused dev characters and non-dev characters, so your point is moot, and rod is right - it's irrelevant.

Keep digging guys :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Shin Ra.

I'd look at this (bpo) issue from the following viewpoint:

Would things have been any different if the character in question had been a regular normal non-dev guy ?

Answer in this case: most likely not, it's fairly customary within certain BoB corps that t2 bpo's end up corp property, especially when people quit or take breaks.

So, assuming ths guy in question would have been any regular trusted longtime member, things would have ended up the same, hence I see no issue.

People that distuinguish dev-owned player chars from paying cutomer chars and assert that only the latter should be allowed to own tech2 bpo's need to scratch themselves behind their ears and wonder if that would then need to go for being allowed to run 10/10 complexes, own outposts, motherships or titans, be ceo or director or whatever else we have in Eve that is available in limited quantity and thus can only exist in so and so large numbers.

Honestly, that's going way too far, and as Kieron stated CCP are not about to stop their devs from playing or limiting what they can do. So ...

Your assesment depends on knowing whether or not RKK got 100% of the bpo profits beforehands? If the dev kept some of the profits for himself to buy stuff or whatever, then RKK would still not be recieveing 100% of the bpo profits, as I assume they are doing now. So no, in that sense things are not equal. Of course, you can add things like if we had another pilot here we would have done xyz, but thats apples and oranges.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by bioqaz eylee

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Callistus
Originally by: Apocryphai
http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ Says "t20" in several places there.

Hmm when I first clicked that link it just showed a white page with the CCP logo and the words "Under Construction"

Then it showed a big poster for an old film called "Clue". Beneath it was written in small print "Get one." (lol btw)

Now its just a black page with an exclamation mark.

when i looked, when it was first posted, it was a blog that just had a link to someone's bf2 score card. hehe they edited that quickly.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Br0wn 0ps

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Kyoko Achura
Not fired over this and that alliance still keeps all the t2 bpo's and all the isk made off this.... This is a great game, but its run like crap, I am canceling all my accounts and taking my 90 bucks a month to a different game that is Fair to all its player base.

Can I have your stuff?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Auman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:05:00 +0000
Presumerbly all the Black Lance members going mental over the last few pages have cancelled their subscriptions? I mean you'd have to have zero morals to continue playing if you truly believed these allegations and that a cover up was going on...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Hoshi
If one RKK member found out who was a dev and kept it to himself this would never have happened but the member that found these devs where not ethical enough to do so and spread the knowledge to others in RKK and so here we are.

Actually, it would still have happened, as much of the supposed correspondence was between the accused dev characters and non-dev characters, so your point is moot, and rod is right - it's irrelevant.
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fubear

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
For example, lets say Khatred was a dev in burn eden. He gets caught and leaves us 1 trillion isk worth of t2 bpos. We then buy 10 titans. Fair? Not really. The case with BOB is clearly on a much lower scale but its arguable that the same principal could apply.

If Khatred obtained the T2 BPO's fairly through the lottery or market as any other player can, then yes it would be completely fair.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Hoshi

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine

Quote:

- Did BoB know they were devs?

Not relevant. A good ethical player that finds out about the player identity of a dev shuts the **** up and lets the dev get one with his gameplay. Yes it creates an awkward situation because you don't want a dev to be put in a position where his interests collide. It's when the retards get hold of dev identities and use it to further their omgh4x crusades that things start stinking and characters get deleted. Serves noone.

This not irrelevant, it's the only really relevant thing in this case. The rules for Dev chars exist because players can not be expected to be good and ethical. And if the the logs posted are true the RKK leadership have not been good and ethical as they have passed on the knowledge of who these devs are among them selfs.

If one RKK member found out who was a dev and kept it to himself this would never have happened but the member that found these devs where not ethical enough to do so and spread the knowledge to others in RKK and so here we are.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Wodanonline

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:02:00 +0000
Ban them and end their relations to their in game friends/relations because their identity as a ccp employee is discovered?
Because they abused their position thats why they got discovered.

how about fire them since they abused their position as dev or gm or whoever got that access to "help" their ingame relations ?
such a person cant REALLY like this game if he has to do such stuff.

And it has a great impact to the ppl who DO like this game and pay MONEY for this game.

grtz

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Callistus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:01:00 +0000

Originally by: Apocryphai
http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ Says "t20" in several places there.

Hmm when I first clicked that link it just showed a white page with the CCP logo and the words "Under Construction"

Then it showed a big poster for an old film called "Clue". Beneath it was written in small print "Get one." (lol btw)

Now its just a black page with an exclamation mark.
--------------

[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Bertram Russel

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:01:00 +0000

Originally by: Madelchai
Can I have your stuff (all of you)?
quote]

Why? You guys don't seem to need it. Ask a dev for some if your in need

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:01:00 +0000
Shin Ra.

I'd look at this (bpo) issue from the following viewpoint:

Would things have been any different if the character in question had been a regular normal non-dev guy ?

Answer in this case: most likely not, it's fairly customary within certain BoB corps that t2 bpo's end up corp property, especially when people quit or take breaks.

So, assuming ths guy in question would have been any regular trusted longtime member, things would have ended up the same, hence I see no issue.

People that distuinguish dev-owned player chars from paying cutomer chars and assert that only the latter should be allowed to own tech2 bpo's need to scratch themselves behind their ears and wonder if that would then need to go for being allowed to run 10/10 complexes, own outposts, motherships or titans, be ceo or director or whatever else we have in Eve that is available in limited quantity and thus can only exist in so and so large numbers.

Honestly, that's going way too far, and as Kieron stated CCP are not about to stop their devs from playing or limiting what they can do. So ...

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Phoenix Pryde

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:59:00 +0000
LOL @ all these dimwitted BoB haters and other slightly biased folk ...

The one issue were most of you guys cling on is that some Char who was seemingly played by a dev handed his BPOs to his former corp before leaving. If anybody would try to look objectively at that he d know that having 10 BPOs (even gaining them from lottery) is by far no single event, i know plenty of people to who that applies. If one reads Kieron's statement one sees that everything is logged and can be checked upon.

Naturally, if one isnt interested in truth or fact, but simply cares about making somebody (BoB seems to be the target of choice here) look bad then this a perfect opportunity for one hell of a flamefest, isnt it ? :P

Who in his right mind trying to be somewhat objective and using his brain could not assume that CCP as a rather serious company, and by now also not so small anymore, has the measures and means to prevent and/or verify any misconduct.

The sheer biased-ness and hypocricy of many posters is quite obvious and anything but productive. You guys only ruin your own gameplay if you actually start to believe what you write.

The statement isnt all-encompassing nor giving too many details. Quite right. But thats not needed. One has the choice to actually read it and take it as it is. Or to ignore it a ramble about what one would have liked to see. From what i read here most ppl's choice was the latter. I for one am content with it

I guess i might be called a BoB alt now, but well, i ve been called a G alt before too, and i can assure you neither is true :P

TRUST Shop // Infinite Improbability Inc [3-I]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Ifni

For those wanting to know whether the BPO's were gathered legitimately or otherwise, reread the above quote.

For a character to give an item to someone else an item transfer would be conducted through a trade window (transactional history). If you drop it into a hangar, it would be in the corporation logs, and if you leave it in a tin in space for someone else to loot that would also come under a transaction log.

Since the BPO's were part of the original accusation, I'm sure they were examined in the course of the investigation.

It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

The "GMs spawned t2 bpos" was never likely to be true. There was never any evidence that it happened. The accusations spawned as a result of chinese whispers.

The accusation that the GM/DEV/whatever gave his legit t2 bpos to RKK when he deleted/renamed his char was not answered.

So get off the horse.

If they're legit, what does it matter?

Its a grey area. AFAIK there are no rules regarding the specifics of such an occurance. You or I might not care, but plenty of people do. There are various ways to look at it. For example, lets say Khatred was a dev in burn eden. He gets caught and leaves us 1 trillion isk worth of t2 bpos. We then buy 10 titans. Fair? Not really. The case with BOB is clearly on a much lower scale but its arguable that the same principal could apply.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Masochistic Cannibal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:54:00 +0000
Edited by: Masochistic Cannibal on 07/02/2007 13:51:22
Originally by: Dianabolic
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sign up to your local witch hunta >>>>>>>>>>>> THATTAWAY!!!

:D

Must make a new sig now, laughing my sweet ass off at all of you haters.

muahahahahahahahaha

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< THAT WAY TO THE SPECIAL BUS!

Dont dribble on the seats

Cannibal

I eat babies ! [Hauling services available Contact ingame]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Br0wn 0ps

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:53:00 +0000

Originally by: Merciless1

I'm speculating here, but there's no way that I'm aware of that would allow sombody to find out who a dev is unless the the dev did somthing stupid like tell sombody or use thier "dev magic" to the point where it became obvious or suspicious. If thier behaving as they should then they should just blend in with the rest of us mere mortals.

I'm guessing that it would be easy enough if a dev logged onto a corp/alliance forum from the office, and an underhanded forum admin looked up the IP addresses of everyone to see which ones belonged to CCP...or if you had ever heard a dev speak, and then heard him on TS/Vent

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dianabolic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:53:00 +0000
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sign up to your local witch hunta >>>>>>>>>>>> THATTAWAY!!!

:D

Must make a new sig now, laughing my sweet ass off at all of you haters.

muahahahahahahahaha
Quote:
2006.12.18 23:46:04 Notify Phoenix belonging to nOrAb self-destructs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Travis Raven

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:53:00 +0000
By Christ you lot, listen to yourselves - this is a GAME!

You realise that you pay thousands in taxes to governments that $*&% you over day in, day out, don't you? If you put half as much effort into moaning about them as you do moaning about this game then democracy might not be as wholly screwed up as it's become.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Masochistic Cannibal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:52:00 +0000

Originally by: spurious signal
Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: spurious signal
...I feel that people like BoB are always going to get all the goodies. T2BPOs in the lotteries, rigged events that give them motherships, whatever.

FYI, that wasn't BOB. But its nice to see Chinese whispers at work.

Well, given that Kugutsumens blog is now private and that nobody is able to discuss the specifics on the EVE forums without getting moderated is it any wonder that the information flow isn't clean & clear?

What I'd been told was that it was RKK who had the T2 BPOs given to them by a dev. RKK are part of BoB yes? If it wasn't RKK then who was it? I don't want to be misinformed but with such limited access to information those of us who aren't in big alliances are left scratching around for the truth.

The accusations regarding that Event where not aimed at BoB, It was another alliance that mysteriously knew to move thier ships and equipment to a certain area before the event even took place. I cant remember which alliance and I cant be bothered to check But it wasn't BoB!

And you can still view Mr K's site you just need to have registered an account (at your own risk) before registrations where suspended which he did at CCP's request.

I still want to know as we know KNOW that T20 was in BoB why was account sharing and violations of the EULA ignored/swept under the mat ? Guesse we will never know, this will turn into the RA complex issue all over again. CCP will release a load of bullocks such as "we banned 2000 accounts last month"

Ie a vague comment open to interpritation. Where 2000 RA members banned ?

Or where 2000 Ebay spamming trial accounts / macro miners etc banned in that month.... oh I wonder

I eat babies ! [Hauling services available Contact ingame]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sadao

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:49:00 +0000
Seriously CCP

All of the above

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:46:00 +0000
Also, to those of you unaware, BOB in no way benefitted from any alleged rigged events.

The story here related to an event held in Curse in which players were required to bring around 4-5 freighter loads worth of various items to a station in that region. The winning team, who recieved a Hel mothership for their troubles, allegedly only needed one freighter to transport all these goods, or so the story goes. Around that time, Nebulai, leader of Aurora was talking about some ISD Aurora member leaking information about an unspecified event that took "6 months of planning". Whether these are related or someone just put 2+3 together and came up with 4 is another story, but it was not BOB that were involed.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by spurious signal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: spurious signal
...I feel that people like BoB are always going to get all the goodies. T2BPOs in the lotteries, rigged events that give them motherships, whatever.

FYI, that wasn't BOB. But its nice to see Chinese whispers at work.

Well, given that Kugutsumens blog is now private and that nobody is able to discuss the specifics on the EVE forums without getting moderated is it any wonder that the information flow isn't clean & clear?

What I'd been told was that it was RKK who had the T2 BPOs given to them by a dev. RKK are part of BoB yes? If it wasn't RKK then who was it? I don't want to be misinformed but with such limited access to information those of us who aren't in big alliances are left scratching around for the truth.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ifni

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:43:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Ifni

For those wanting to know whether the BPO's were gathered legitimately or otherwise, reread the above quote.

For a character to give an item to someone else an item transfer would be conducted through a trade window (transactional history). If you drop it into a hangar, it would be in the corporation logs, and if you leave it in a tin in space for someone else to loot that would also come under a transaction log.

Since the BPO's were part of the original accusation, I'm sure they were examined in the course of the investigation.

It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

The "GMs spawned t2 bpos" was never likely to be true. There was never any evidence that it happened. The accusations spawned as a result of chinese whispers.

The accusation that the GM/DEV/whatever gave his legit t2 bpos to RKK when he deleted/renamed his char was not answered.

So get off the horse.

If they're legit, what does it matter?

You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by 31i73

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni
Edited by: Ifni on 07/02/2007 13:35:52
Originally by: spurious signal
...I feel that people like BoB are always going to get all the goodies. T2BPOs in the lotteries, rigged events that give them motherships, whatever.

FYI, that wasn't BOB, supposedly. But its nice to see Chinese whispers at work.

well, actually, there was one yesterday Sister of eve or something, and just happened to go right were bob were.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shin Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:41:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni

For those wanting to know whether the BPO's were gathered legitimately or otherwise, reread the above quote.

For a character to give an item to someone else an item transfer would be conducted through a trade window (transactional history). If you drop it into a hangar, it would be in the corporation logs, and if you leave it in a tin in space for someone else to loot that would also come under a transaction log.

Since the BPO's were part of the original accusation, I'm sure they were examined in the course of the investigation.

It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

The "GMs spawned t2 bpos" was never likely to be true. There was never any evidence that it happened. The accusations spawned as a result of chinese whispers.

The accusation that the GM/DEV/whatever gave his legit t2 bpos to RKK when he deleted/renamed his char was not answered.

So get off the horse.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:40:00 +0000

Originally by: Astasia Orian
Can I have your stuff (all of you)?

Just ask a DEV for anything u want, u dont need our stuff

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Madelchai

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:38:00 +0000
All I know is, I've already fashioned a tin foil hat from a Minmatar ship after reading this thread.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ifni

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:38:00 +0000
Edited by: Ifni on 07/02/2007 13:35:52
Originally by: spurious signal
...I feel that people like BoB are always going to get all the goodies. T2BPOs in the lotteries, rigged events that give them motherships, whatever.

FYI, that wasn't BOB, supposedly. But its nice to see Chinese whispers at work.

You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Semtex'o

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:37:00 +0000
Too many questions remain unanswered.
Like others I am also not that pleased with kieron's statement.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Astasia Orian

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:36:00 +0000
Can I have your stuff (all of you)?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Apocryphai

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Ather Ialeas
I tried another method; http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ Says "t20" in several places there.

So all those months we went without working character portraits because t20 was too busy playing with BoB and his illegal T2BPOs?

Says it all really.

Welcome to BoB-Online.

Originally by: Victor Valka
What the skull-chick said.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:28:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni
It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

i cant hear it anymore !!!

the "paying customers" want open investigations and demand the proof of a level playfield and get - nothing.
and some guys tell me that i have to care about "ingame lives" of devs on my payroll ?
just put on your customer-boots and forget for a second that you know that guy and that other guy personally !
is it so hard to see the non-dev-friend-but-just-ordinary-customer perspective ?

sure i like(ed) what they've created - i wouldnt post here if not.
sure i like them to have fun at work as this will improve my experience.
sure i like them to know about the game as it helps developing.

still, the game must be fair and now there are reasons for doubt.

CCP has to go forward and play open information politics - its the only way to sort this mess !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Betonela

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Danny Hawk
this is already news on other mmorg sites, they need to sort this yesturday

Link?

Linkage

---------
join on New Movement of Market Traders

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Evil Thug

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:25:00 +0000
Not enough.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shadowsword

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Danny Hawk
this is already news on other mmorg sites, they need to sort this yesturday

Link?
------------------------------------------
Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by spurious signal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:23:00 +0000
Since I first read about these allegations I've found myself with no desire to play EVE any more. I've been logging on to change skills but that's it.

This response from Kieron hasn't changed that. EVE feels pointless to me now. I can't see the point in playing when I feel that people like BoB are always going to get all the goodies. T2BPOs in the lotteries, rigged events that give them motherships, whatever.

This response smacks of coverup and does nothing to make me want to play any more.

Bye.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Frogzuk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:22:00 +0000
TBH the whole thing is a joke.

Sounding like a 'kangaroo court' of sorts

CCP will lose a fair percentage of the player base over this issue. The point is this, whilst any alliance has a dev/gm within the ranks there is always going to be a area of concern regarding 'fairness' across the board. And any confidence/reassurance to the paying consumer who pay to play a transparent, fair and balanced game has been thrown out of the window.

I wonder if the boot had been on the other foot would bob sit quietly as a result of the response from K & CCP - i doubt it tbh.

I suggest that any alliance who received things as a result of gm/dev wrong doing should be penalized - e.g. have bpos taken away. Any character in game caught in the involvement of these matters should receive perma bans.

None of this slap on the wrist stuff, it sends out the wrong message to the community, it would also be useful to actually notify us the paying customer that X person / X alliance has had x removed or has had character x perma banned as a result of x investigation. You get to read about investigations in the tabloids, see it in the news why shouldn't the same apply to EVE ? I bet this would restore a hell a lot of confidence in the paying customer. This should also apply to those using exploits in game x alliance/player has been warned re use of x exploit. Future use of x exploit will result in perma ban across all of the eve community.

Thats my 2 cents, i will continue to play eve albeit not with the same confidence as before, but i will watch closely on any developments - i will cancel my account if CCP dont do something to address the real issues and answer the questions and implement the punishments accordingly where due.

Froggy

p.s. sad day for eve

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:21:00 +0000
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 13:18:58
Originally by: UKM Thorgrim

MMMMM not that a DEV or a GM could change the logs in anyway form or manner..

SORRY But it now comes down to Not what who or Where but how long left till the GAME Dies..

You have a seriously skewed sense of reality. Just wait until Kieron makes an update and hopefully he will give us a Yes or No on the allegations.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: kieron
Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

For those wanting to know whether the BPO's were gathered legitimately or otherwise, reread the above quote.

For a character to give an item to someone else an item transfer would be conducted through a trade window (transactional history). If you drop it into a hangar, it would be in the corporation logs, and if you leave it in a tin in space for someone else to loot that would also come under a transaction log.

Since the BPO's were part of the original accusation, I'm sure they were examined in the course of the investigation.

It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

MMMMM not that a DEV or a GM could change the logs in anyway form or manner..

SORRY But it now comes down to Not what who or Where but how long left till the GAME Dies..

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by bioqaz eylee

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:15:00 +0000
Edited by: bioqaz eylee on 07/02/2007 13:13:05
Originally by: Captain Thunk
I can't find any google match for "vincent@ccpgames.com"

But if those conversations are legitimate then it underscores the point. Devs are supposed to keep their identity secret, not just secret from the general public. It highlights the on tap info that people think is giving BoB the edge, particularly when the server is understrain and BoB seem to know how to act best to alleviate for themselves.

All alliances may have devs in them, but how many of those devs are incharge of the capital fleet? If I had my personal dev I'd put him in charge of the capitals too - can't think of safer hands to be honest.

CAPTAIN THUNK

try searching without the .com, i see one link on a french site. but not lots

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ather Ialeas

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:14:00 +0000
Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 07/02/2007 13:10:36
Originally by: Captain Thunk
I can't find any google match for "vincent@ccpgames.com"

But if those conversations are legitimate then it underscores the point. Devs are supposed to keep their identity secret, not just secret from the general public. It highlights the on tap info that people think is giving BoB the edge, particularly when the server is understrain and BoB seem to know how to act best to alleviate for themselves.

All alliances may have devs in them, but how many of those devs are incharge of the capital fleet? If I had my personal dev I'd put him in charge of the capitals too - can't think of safer hands to be honest.

CAPTAIN THUNK

I tried another method; http://staff.ccpgames.com/vincent/ Says "t20" in several places there.
---
Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances.
---

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ifni

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:12:00 +0000

Originally by: kieron
Areas of investigation include, but are not limited to: messaging history, financial and transactional history, combat and corporation logs, item and cash transfers and IP logs.

For those wanting to know whether the BPO's were gathered legitimately or otherwise, reread the above quote.

For a character to give an item to someone else an item transfer would be conducted through a trade window (transactional history). If you drop it into a hangar, it would be in the corporation logs, and if you leave it in a tin in space for someone else to loot that would also come under a transaction log.

Since the BPO's were part of the original accusation, I'm sure they were examined in the course of the investigation.

It sickens me to see so many people harping on about them; get off your high horses and realise that in your quest for "justice" and "truth" you've successfully destroyed the ingame lives of some of the people that work to improve the game that you're all addicted to. I hope you're pleased with yourselves.

You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Liet Traep

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Harpr Shodokai

I hope CCP seriously change their ways or this could really affect their actual business (journalists getting involved).
At this point i'm half hoping that journalist do get involved. I'm not sure i trust CCP to do an honest job of this without someone holding their feet to the fire.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:09:00 +0000
I can't find any google match for "vincent@ccpgames.com"

But if those conversations are legitimate then it underscores the point. Devs are supposed to keep their identity secret, not just secret from the general public. It highlights the on tap info that people think is giving BoB the edge, particularly when the server is understrain and BoB seem to know how to act best to alleviate for themselves.

All alliances may have devs in them, but how many of those devs are incharge of the capital fleet? If I had my personal dev I'd put him in charge of the capitals too - can't think of safer hands to be honest.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by James Snowscoran

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:05:00 +0000
Would be nice with a more comprehensive explanation providing more details and leaving less room for speculation.

Apart from that, barring a few select posters the quality of EVE-O posting has dropped to an all-new low. It remains a mystery to me why modding policies allow this to occur while they insist on cracking down hard on minor oversights and profanity.
-----

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:05:00 +0000
this is already news on other mmorg sites, they need to sort this yesturday

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 12:52:35
Originally by: Harpr Shodokai

Oh my.

I hope CCP seriously change their ways or this could really affect their actual business (journalists getting involved).

Noooo not the journalists! OMGRUNFORTEHHILLS!!111

If you threaten someone make it less obvious ;)

haha "threaten someone make it less obvious"

what like this threat?

Just an extract from an earlier dev post on these eve information portal (Dec 2006)

Originally by: CCP t20
(I hope for your sake it's an accidental figuring-out of, otherwise if you're actively hunting dev identities, i can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die ... )

The last part,"i can only speak for myself, but you'd be on my alts' sh*tlist till the day I die"

nice threat by a CCP Developer, dont you think?

BTW.. i like the pic, BOB mentality

Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:55:00 +0000
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 12:52:35
Originally by: Harpr Shodokai

Oh my.

I hope CCP seriously change their ways or this could really affect their actual business (journalists getting involved).

Noooo not the journalists! OMGRUNFORTEHHILLS!!111

If you threaten someone make it less obvious ;)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Harpr Shodokai

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:54:00 +0000

Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:26:15
29 Jun 2005, Thryr Merim registered with RKK [BoB] with the e-mail address vincent@ccpgames.com

He rejoined as Ishos on Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:03 pm

Quote:

Pilot: Ishos Rerajan (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Amarr
Licenced: Amarr BS, Amarr BC, Amarr Command Ships, Amarr Interdictors, Amarr Cloakers, Amarr HAC, Amarr Interceptors
Notes: Maxed out Armored Warfare + Command ships + mindlink

Pilot: Thryr Merim (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Caldari
Licenced: Caldari BS, Caldari BC, Caldari Interdictors, Caldari HAC, Caldari Freighters, Caldari Transport Ships, Caldari Interceptors
Notes: Maxed Out Missile Operation Skills

The below posted on RKK internal forum: Thryr Merim announces he is a dev:
(re. conversation about anew killboard)
Quote:
Originally posted by:haze

I have thought about this a lot and not been able to come up with any solution.

Its the same problem with the game lots, as CCP dont do any kind of auth on the logs there is no way to authenticat them.

A simple md5 like hash on each log/killmail would be a nice and simple way for ccp to auth the logs, would make pettitions a lot dam simpler as well.

as it stands though I guess we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
the system as it is today is a bit obsolete, it's a generated text and the logs only store the one that did most damage as a killer ... we've got plans to store everything in the logs ... more on that later ... low priority atm

Now if you search for vincent@ccpgames.com you find posts on french forums as t20.

t20 was Ishos
t20 was in charge of RKK Capital Ship Command
t20 when forced to leave RKK, left 10 T2 BPO behind him.
t20 witness all the RKK EULA abuse, char resale, etc. (alleged)
t20 is really close to Oveur and they are often seen together on Sisi in local.

Oh my.

I hope CCP seriously change their ways or this could really affect their actual business (journalists getting involved).
<3

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by jeffb

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:50:00 +0000
Edited by: jeffb on 07/02/2007 12:48:09
Unban AnthonyZ, if it wasnt for him we would still all be in the dark.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:49:00 +0000

Originally by: Shadowsword

- Bob's denials: They repeated over and over that ALL the allegations were false. And some of them turn out to be true. This makes everyone wonder about wether the others are indeed true, whatever Bob say, or not. I'm won't throw those allegations at Bob's face, until they're proved, one way or another, but the doubts remains...

I think CCP need to give a more complete answer, of those doubts will plague Eve's future. Even if it's only a "about this particular BPO allegation, we can't prove it was or wasn't done".

Good and well thought out reply.
However one minor thing i would like you to think about:
The allegations cant turn true because the only trustworthy source of information is ccp and they havent unclosed anything (yet).

I hope kieron adds another statement to clear up all the other allegations because it damages gameplay for a good bunch of ppl however as you can see in some of the replies its obvious that no matter of who says what in the longrun the hatemongers will not believe it anyways. We can only hope for the majority of the public that another statement is issued.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by ceaon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:47:00 +0000
i was expecting more clue like if the accusation was true
dear CCP you have failed to me
u needed the "help" of one hacker to get the alarm on. sad that u don't detect that earlier
+
@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shadowsword

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:45:00 +0000
My view on the whole thing:

- Devs playing in secret: Perfectly normal. CCP loves their game, so they want to play it, and they damned have the right to enjoy it. If CCP wasn't passionated by Eve, Eve would be a Wow in space by now...

- Devs playing in Bob: Bother me a bit. Bob is already so powerfull, so full of hardore gamers that it tend to attract still more veterans, from other alliances. The health of political balance in 0.0 certainly doesn't need CCP helping to it, if only by their presence in Bob.

- Bob's denials: They repeated over and over that ALL the allegations were false. And some of them turn out to be true. This makes everyone wonder about wether the others are indeed true, whatever Bob say, or not. I'm won't throw those allegations at Bob's face, until they're proved, one way or another, but the doubts remains...

I think CCP need to give a more complete answer, of those doubts will plague Eve's future. Even if it's only a "about this particular BPO allegation, we can't prove it was or wasn't done".
------------------------------------------
Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Liet Traep

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:45:00 +0000
For a long time allegations have been made over and over again about BoB getting special favours and treatment from CCP. I remember hearing complaints as far back as when Xelas got kicked out of the north. Now a 3rd party reveals that Devs have alts in Bob and reveals who they are. He also reveals (allegedly) that higher ups in BoB were in the know about which devs where in their alliance. He also alleges that they benefitted materially from free t2 bpos and inside knowledge about upcoming events.

CCP needs to open about everything they find. Politics and passions in this game run extremely high. Just having a dev playing as such a high level character in Bob is damaging enough. If they don't honestlyand openlyaddress these rumours and release all the results of their investigation in a timelyfashion their reputation is going to suffer mightily for it.

I want to know.

1. Did this Dev give BoB t2 bpos. If he did what's going to happen to them. Even if they were acquired legitamately it seems unseemly. I suggest if they did receive them from the dev that they be taken away and reseeded even if they were acquired legitamately. To protect CCP's reputation and to show that they take the community's concerns seriously. Sucks for BoB but they can polish the free motherships and corvus' and storms' they got from the Alliance tourney's to console themselves.

2. Did any Bob members know he was a dev? Did they get information about upcoming events and changes from him. Did they profit through their connection with a dev?

3. How long was this dev in BoB? Where any questionable decisions made where BoB benefitted from having a Dev buddy ease things over?

4. If BoB players are proven to have benefitted from a Dev's cheating on behalf. If they knewa dev was cheating on their behalf what happens to them. Do they get banned or do they get a slap on the wrist and are told not to get caught again?

CCP you have a problem. You've been accused of favortism when it comes to BoB and now Dev characters have been found in BoB. You need to respond and respond fast. Your customers are losing faith in your impartiality and I don't think the forum mods can keep up with the posts you're getting on this.

BoB, everything you've accomplished since this dev has joined alliance is now suspect. People accuse you of cheating in the alliance tourneys. Guess what? You can't prove you didn't. You cheated in turning off ASCN's pos. You say you didn't you had the capability of doing so. It'd be simple for a dev to do. Cyvok claims you cheated in killing Steve. Guess what? You can't prove that you didn't cheat there either. You are screwed. Everything you have accomplished is tainted by this.

CCP needs to be open and honest with it's player otherwise you risk losing them. If BoB players benefitted by cheating you better drop the hammer on them just to clear yourselves of any favoritism. Honestly I believe you do favor BoB. They have a very large percentage of long term characters in their alliance. I think they probably have the highest concentration of CCP employees playing amongst them as a result of that. I think BoB has gotten more than their fair share of lucky breaks. These are things I felt before. I didn't know but I felt that this was true. Now I see there might be some truth to these feelings. That maybe I wasn't wrong in thinking you liked BoB more than the rest of us. And I doubt i'm the only one who feels this way now.

If I feel you haven't done an honest investigation. If I feel you're covering up and hoping this will go away. if I feel that I can't trust you. If I feel that anything I do in this game doesn't matter because I'm not in the elite Band of Brothers alliance then why should I play? if you say you investigated and found no impropriety, that no wrong doing was done I'll believe you. But you better outline EVERY STEP YOU TOOK. Your ball.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fi T'Zeh

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:44:00 +0000

Originally by: UKM Thorgrim
Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:29:40
Can a dev/anyone confirm that it was t20 who designed/implemented the t2 BPO lottery?

well if did this will really bugger things up for CCP, i can see the allocations now.

Alligations do they really need more ..

Ban all that have been Cought cheating..

I agree, anyone who has been caught cheating should be banned.
....

Playing EVE on easy mode since May 2003.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:42:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:29:40
Can a dev/anyone confirm that it was t20 who designed/implemented the t2 BPO lottery?

well if did this will really bugger things up for CCP, i can see the allocations now.

Alligations do they really need more ..

Ban all that have been Cought cheating..

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Xendie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:41:00 +0000
CCP has done nothing except to ban kugutsumens accounts.

the so called dev just had his characters renamed.

CCP havent done anything at all to get a grip on the cheating done by some devs and the leaders of the bob alliance.

Quote:
Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?

Quote:
jake sisko > its f-e's bob dev alt making lag

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:39:00 +0000
Edited by: SNeAkYbRiT on 07/02/2007 12:37:42
Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:29:40
Can a dev/anyone confirm that it was t20 who designed/implemented the t2 BPO lottery?

well if did this will really bugger things up for CCP, i can see the posts rolling in on this one.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Severian Maura

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:37:00 +0000
This is a fairly sad statement. You did not adress whether there was any wrond doing with T2 Equipement. Or misuse of there positions to create favorable out comes for bob.

Most importantly if the Developers want to play the game there should be a developer only corp located in empire. Leave 0.0 to paying players.

This is a competive game and what assurances that a developer wont abuse his power. Power Corupts and there is always that tugging on someone to cheat whether there a developer or not. CCP should not allow itslelf to put in a position where me the paying custumer goes oh this is a crock, the game developers help out one Alliance over the other.

This shows a clear biased towards BoB. Thanks CCP for helping and showing favortism to one alliance while penalizing everyone else. Becuase thats what you do when you all join that alliancee. In sports team players are not allowed to bet on there games and thats exactly what your doing in this case.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Masochistic Cannibal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:36:00 +0000

Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:18:26
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point.

Cheers,
dbp

I think it's more likely that it's impossible to prove if you sold the account/character or not. And the fact that you are still here is testiment to their being something fishy as CCP's current practice regarding illegal character sales is simply to ban the offending party immidiatly.

Do I know this for a fact ? Why yes I do and would be happy to explain somewhere it wont get moderated.

Your character was sold to you by a friend, it's the easiest thing in the world to make a change of hands look 100% Legit, The fact your still here is no proof of innocence at all. There's certainly enough proof in Mr K's blogs for CCP to launch investigations and silence certain parties. I think most of us that are not half blinded by ignorance can assume that there is also proof in the allegations regarding your character!

As a side note why was DigitalCommunist given the IP address's BY A GM regarding to a character that was hacked allegedly by Mr K ?

Cannibal

I eat babies ! [Hauling services available Contact ingame]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ather Ialeas

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:33:00 +0000
To say what I think as simply as I can: Not enough.
---
Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances.
---

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Shinoobie
Originally by: DB Preacher

Blah...

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

Is that what you do for all your problems? Petition it?

You see if we got a clearer message from CCP what has found/not found things like this wouldn't crop up anymore.

Thats all these guys in this thread are asking for, and all I see is the accused trying to defend themselves AND ccp. Makes it look worse imho.

Reveal the truth, and stop allegations.

/signed.

Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth!

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by bioqaz eylee

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Hedgie
Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:26:15
29 Jun 2005, Thryr Merim registered with RKK [BoB] with the e-mail address vincent@ccpgames.com

He rejoined as Ishos on Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:03 pm

Quote:

Pilot: Ishos Rerajan (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Amarr
Licenced: Amarr BS, Amarr BC, Amarr Command Ships, Amarr Interdictors, Amarr Cloakers, Amarr HAC, Amarr Interceptors
Notes: Maxed out Armored Warfare + Command ships + mindlink

Pilot: Thryr Merim (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Caldari
Licenced: Caldari BS, Caldari BC, Caldari Interdictors, Caldari HAC, Caldari Freighters, Caldari Transport Ships, Caldari Interceptors
Notes: Maxed Out Missile Operation Skills

The below posted on RKK internal forum: Thryr Merim announces he is a dev:
(re. conversation about anew killboard)
Quote:
Originally posted by:haze

I have thought about this a lot and not been able to come up with any solution.

Its the same problem with the game lots, as CCP dont do any kind of auth on the logs there is no way to authenticat them.

A simple md5 like hash on each log/killmail would be a nice and simple way for ccp to auth the logs, would make pettitions a lot dam simpler as well.

as it stands though I guess we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
the system as it is today is a bit obsolete, it's a generated text and the logs only store the one that did most damage as a killer ... we've got plans to store everything in the logs ... more on that later ... low priority atm

Now if you search for vincent@ccpgames.com you find posts on french forums as t20.

t20 was Ishos
t20 was in charge of RKK Capital Ship Command
t20 when forced to leave RKK, left 10 T2 BPO behind him.
t20 witness all the RKK EULA abuse, char resale, etc. (alleged)
t20 is really close to Oveur and they are often seen together on Sisi in local.

quotin dis

omg, this makes me cry its a sad day in eve if this is true.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:33:00 +0000

Originally by: krystal eyes
Edited by: krystal eyes on 07/02/2007 12:26:15
29 Jun 2005, Thryr Merim registered with RKK [BoB] with the e-mail address vincent@ccpgames.com

He rejoined as Ishos on Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:03 pm

Quote:

Pilot: Ishos Rerajan (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Amarr
Licenced: Amarr BS, Amarr BC, Amarr Command Ships, Amarr Interdictors, Amarr Cloakers, Amarr HAC, Amarr Interceptors
Notes: Maxed out Armored Warfare + Command ships + mindlink

Pilot: Thryr Merim (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Caldari
Licenced: Caldari BS, Caldari BC, Caldari Interdictors, Caldari HAC, Caldari Freighters, Caldari Transport Ships, Caldari Interceptors
Notes: Maxed Out Missile Operation Skills

The below posted on RKK internal forum: Thryr Merim announces he is a dev:
(re. conversation about anew killboard)
Quote:
Originally posted by:haze

I have thought about this a lot and not been able to come up with any solution.

Its the same problem with the game lots, as CCP dont do any kind of auth on the logs there is no way to authenticat them.

A simple md5 like hash on each log/killmail would be a nice and simple way for ccp to auth the logs, would make pettitions a lot dam simpler as well.

as it stands though I guess we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
the system as it is today is a bit obsolete, it's a generated text and the logs only store the one that did most damage as a killer ... we've got plans to store everything in the logs ... more on that later ... low priority atm

Now if you search for vincent@ccpgames.com you find posts on french forums as t20.

t20 was Ishos
t20 was in charge of RKK Capital Ship Command
t20 when forced to leave RKK, left 10 T2 BPO behind him.
t20 witness all the RKK EULA abuse, char resale, etc. (alleged)
t20 is really close to Oveur and they are often seen together on Sisi in local.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by krystal eyes

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:26:00 +0000
29 Jun 2005, Thryr Merim register with the e-mail address vincent@ccpgames.com

He rejoined as Ishos on Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:03 pm

Quote:

Pilot: Ishos Rerajan (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Amarr
Licenced: Amarr BS, Amarr BC, Amarr Command Ships, Amarr Interdictors, Amarr Cloakers, Amarr HAC, Amarr Interceptors
Notes: Maxed out Armored Warfare + Command ships + mindlink

Pilot: Thryr Merim (main / RKK)
Specialisation: Caldari
Licenced: Caldari BS, Caldari BC, Caldari Interdictors, Caldari HAC, Caldari Freighters, Caldari Transport Ships, Caldari Interceptors
Notes: Maxed Out Missile Operation Skills

The below posted on RKK internal forum: Thryr Merim announces he is a dev:
(re. conversation about anew killboard)
Quote:
Originally posted by:haze

I have thought about this a lot and not been able to come up with any solution.

Its the same problem with the game lots, as CCP dont do any kind of auth on the logs there is no way to authenticat them.

A simple md5 like hash on each log/killmail would be a nice and simple way for ccp to auth the logs, would make pettitions a lot dam simpler as well.

as it stands though I guess we are just going to have to deal with it the best we can.

Originally Posted by Thryr Merim
the system as it is today is a bit obsolete, it's a generated text and the logs only store the one that did most damage as a killer ... we've got plans to store everything in the logs ... more on that later ... low priority atm

Now if you search for vincent@ccpgames.com you find posts on french forums as t20.

t20 was Ishos
t20 was in charge of RKK Capital Ship Command
t20 when forced to leave RKK, left 10 T2 BPO behind him.
t20 witness all the RKK EULA abuse, char resale, etc. (alleged)
t20 is really close to Oveur and they are often seen together on Sisi in local.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Shinoobie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:26:00 +0000

Originally by: DB Preacher

Blah...

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

Is that what you do for all your problems? Petition it?

You see if we got a clearer message from CCP what has found/not found things like this wouldn't crop up anymore.

Thats all these guys in this thread are asking for, and all I see is the accused trying to defend themselves AND ccp. Makes it look worse imho.

Reveal the truth, and stop allegations.

Elite Scouting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:25:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT

well you've called me and you go on about growing up...think u need to take a spoon full of ya own medicine.

You know, the way your whole corp seems to act you're the last person who should give that advice.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Wizzkidy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +0000
It's kinda true though is it not

All these months people have laughed at the fact BOB cheat and now although it aint be "proved" it's looking more and more likly that it DID happen.

Do you really think CCP would turn around and say "Oh yes we have checked the logs and one of the devs (or 2) cheated?"

Of course there not going too, it seems all too simple for them to turn around and say "it was too long ago we don't take logs that far back"

That is BS, I do not beleave that for a second and as ar as I am concerned they are either lying or they maybe didn't set them up to go that far back which is no excuse.

Something DID happen and CCP are unwilling to find otu what DID happen.

CCP you are a disgrace tbh and it proves that BOB DID need help in there wars and those thigns that happened, i.e POS's going offline or whatever at the time where ALL down to CHEATING and i'm FED up with it.

and there was people laughing 7 months ago about it lol well tbh its terrible.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +0000
This thread is going downhill fast

I would quote this guy who posted something a few pages back which was calm and considered and hit the nail on the head, but I've lost where it was and it's a lot of effort to go find - chances are everyone's read it and can guess which one I'm thinking off.

I remain optimistic that in this dark hour, CCP will act to restore faith and credibility to the greatest MMORPG ever made (something I'm sure we can all actually agree on).

It'd be nice if people can try to post constructively no matter how angry they are, under the circumstances it's understandable to be angry but unconstructive posts could possibly just make the situation worse.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Maze La'Zie
I count myself as neutral in this. It wasn't hard to track down Kugutsumen's forums from the allegations posted on these forums, and his allegations were very interesting.

We need a categoric statement on whether CCP employees cheated or not.

If CCP employees cheated, then we need to know that they were suitably punished.

Thanks.

NO Compensation for all That have Worked hard in this game to get the Stuff they wanted not Given to them....

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by shimmyckus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +0000
This statement is joke, right?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by 31i73

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:24:00 +0000
I missed the part what does first [insert shiptype] kill monument[s] have to do with dev misconduct?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Maze La'Zie
I count myself as neutral in this. It wasn't hard to track down Kugutsumen's forums from the allegations posted on these forums, and his allegations were very interesting.

We need a categoric statement on whether CCP employees cheated or not.

If CCP employees cheated, then we need to know that they were suitably punished.

Thanks.

Atleast someone gets it right

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Zzleeper

STFU.. Cheater!!

Mature

BOB alt?

well you've called me and you go on about growing up...think u need to take a spoon full of ya own medicine.

No, someone who thinks you should grow up. Shouting 'shut he **** up cheater' doesnt really make you look good you know?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Starblizz

if you want to count the first freighter (which was renbursed as it was classed as an login trap (btw i have both sides of that little story in my corp and allience to conferm my facts from)), to try and show your version of the truth is correct - even though it's not - go right ahead. selective memory 4tw i guess...

you my friend have the ability of selective reading. I told you a few posts above already that it is NOT about the size of the ship AT ALL. Neither if it was the biggest ship at one time.

I gave you 2 reasons why a Titan should get a momument and a dread not.

a) the uniqueness and manhours / efford it requires to be build by an alliance.
b) the storyarc in which titans were always mentioned as flying stations - superships.

Dreads or any other capital ship are just regular ships which every pilot will one day fly. If any ship deaths apart from the titan, atleast to my personal opinion, would require a monument it would be the gold magnate, the silvermangates and the impocs/impageddons. Since most of them are unique and unlikely to spread and die in a daily fashion. Like dreads do these days.

Losing or killing the first dread just means killing the first ship of a newly implemented class while killing a titan will be not a day to day event like killing 10 dreads or capitals these days is.
As far as im concerned every titan kill should get a monument since it will always mark and outstanding event regardless of who did it.

Keep trolling tho.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Maze La'Zie

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:21:00 +0000
I count myself as neutral in this. It wasn't hard to track down Kugutsumen's forums from the allegations posted on these forums, and his allegations were very interesting.

We need a categoric statement on whether CCP employees cheated or not.

If CCP employees cheated, then we need to know that they were suitably punished.

Thanks.

___________________
Chief Scientific Officer
Technology La'Zie
Author of The End

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:20:00 +0000

Originally by: Zzleeper
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Zzleeper

STFU.. Cheater!!

Mature

BOB alt?

No, someone who thinks you should grow up. Shouting 'shut he **** up cheater' doesnt really make you look good you know?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Zzleeper
Edited by: Zzleeper on 07/02/2007 12:11:33
Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

STFU.. Cheater!!

quoted for truth

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:18:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Zzleeper

STFU.. Cheater!!

Mature

BOB alt?
Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:17:00 +0000
Edited by: UKM Thorgrim on 07/02/2007 12:15:25
Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

petition it bud ya never what you'll get from it

YOU Might GET A DREAD BPO For you Petitions. as the DEv's & GM's Love ya DB Preacher..

mod THIS for the truth hurts..

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Zzleeper

STFU.. Cheater!!

Mature

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fry Star

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:16:00 +0000
The whiners can't win. If ccp is corrupt, it's not only 1 rogue dev, it's the whole culture and company. New players to the game get such a rude shock, when CCP advertises the skill and courage of Band of Brothers, and thats what all alliances should look up to, and when people actually start playing the game, they find themselves treated as nothing, flamed to hell and back on the forums, and with a huge uphill struggle because of certain mechanics, like t2 bpo's.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Dreads were never titans.
Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon.

The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.

does the whole first cap ship kill and the largest ship in the game being killed (at that time) mean nothing?

sorry to me the whole killing a logged off titan means nothing to me as well

youre right killing the biggest ship at a time means nothing.
The titan, regardless of how it was killed, was always supposed to be the uberendgame ship and since it requires a whole alliance and alot of manhours to fly its just natural that its considered a major achievement. Far above the first dread which took 1 person 2 hauls in a freighter, a bpo and back then a 1.0 empire station to build. A freighter which btw was the first capital ship ingame not the dread class. Which also means that the first dread kill wasnt even the first kill of "a new class of ships".

if you want to count the first freighter (which was renbursed as it was classed as an login trap (btw i have both sides of that little story in my corp and allience to conferm my facts from)), to try and show your version of the truth is correct - even though it's not - go right ahead. selective memory 4tw i guess...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:15:00 +0000
Edited by: Zzleeper on 07/02/2007 12:11:33
Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

STFU.. Cheater!!

Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:14:00 +0000

Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

by petitioned u mean corp mailed?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:12:00 +0000

Originally by: DB Preacher
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

petition it bud ya never what you'll get from it

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:11:00 +0000
ok then if thats ure stance the first freighter kill was by rat via a loggin trap the olny one theve ever used so weres the rat monument?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dj lightning

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Dreads were never titans.
Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon.

The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.

does the whole first cap ship kill and the largest ship in the game being killed (at that time) mean nothing?

sorry to me the whole killing a logged off titan means nothing to me as well

youre right killing the biggest ship at a time means nothing.
The titan, regardless of how it was killed, was always supposed to be the uberendgame ship and since it requires a whole alliance and alot of manhours to fly its just natural that its considered a major achievement. Far above the first dread which took 1 person 2 hauls in a freighter, a bpo and back then a 1.0 empire station to build. A freighter which btw was the first capital ship ingame not the dread class. Which also means that the first dread kill wasnt even the first kill of "a new class of ships".
The Freighter that was killed was a log on trap and was given back so it was not the 1st capital.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Starblizz
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Dreads were never titans.
Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon.

The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.

does the whole first cap ship kill and the largest ship in the game being killed (at that time) mean nothing?

sorry to me the whole killing a logged off titan means nothing to me as well

youre right killing the biggest ship at a time means nothing.
The titan, regardless of how it was killed, was always supposed to be the uberendgame ship and since it requires a whole alliance and alot of manhours to fly its just natural that its considered a major achievement. Far above the first dread which took 1 person 2 hauls in a freighter, a bpo and back then a 1.0 empire station to build. A freighter which btw was the first capital ship ingame not the dread class. Which also means that the first dread kill wasnt even the first kill of "a new class of ships".

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Comstr

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:09:00 +0000
So apart from deleting a couple of comprasmised characters, nothing else was done.

CCP, this is a stain on your honor. One you don't seem to really care about, or something would have been done. You belive nothing was wrong really, the dev's breaking the rules was a bad call, but nothing that deserves punishment.

People are closing accounts, and the stain on your honor will cost you far far more, than the cost of hiring a new developer or two.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Dreads were never titans.
Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon.

The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.

does the whole first cap ship kill and the largest ship in the game being killed (at that time) mean nothing?

sorry to me the whole killing a logged off titan means nothing to me as well

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by DB Preacher

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:03:00 +0000
Edited by: DB Preacher on 07/02/2007 12:01:58
Originally by: Shin Ra
In typical "New Labour" Style, this seems severely lacking in content. I do appreciate your attempt to look into this. I'm not aware if you are aware of the full effect of the allegations. There was multiple evidence by those in question about certain other people breaching various parts of the EULA, including buying/selling character for $$$. Have any of these been investigated and if so what was their results?

Originally by: Xendie

when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

A very simple check by CCP will confirm that there is no dodginess on any of my accounts.

I would happily allow CCP to release information pertaining that investigation because I have nothing to hide.

However, the very fact that I remain in the game in the light of those serious allegations should prove that no part of the EULA was broken by myself.

Quite frankly, and I did say so at the time, the dude was full of crap but it's far easier to smell the stench of deciept regardless of what is said.

I was targetted specifically. First with the "allegations" of character sales, then with the demand that I quit or future potential CCP players names would be released. I guess some people forgot where the game stopped and real life started for a little bit.

Either way, it's the last time I'll comment on this point and any further comments in any other threads about this (exluding this one ofc) will simply be petitioned.

Cheers,
dbp

Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Starblizz

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Dreads were never titans.
Tomb talked in his early blogs about flying stations. The concept of a titan and the ship already existed ingame since 2003 / 2004. Dreads were at no point anywhere close to that concept. They were a byproduct of the Structure / Station implementation which required a new superpower siegeweapon.

The titan as a flying station however is part of the history and the story arc of eve ever since its creation and has been in the dreams of many ppl for as long.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
Edited by: SNeAkYbRiT on 07/02/2007 11:49:16
ummm you've taken my post out of context and trying to twist it...CHEATS!

ever thought that spawning the lower T2 BPO's wouldnt be noticed as much but still give an advantage...guess not, but continue with the put downs cos ya making ya self look pretty slow.

technically a flagging system doesnt make a difference between spawning a low level item and a high level one since ingame value is very subjective. To rig the lottery in the fashion you describe would require alot of work i guess and alot of hassle for very small profit. If someone would want to cheat it would be far more convenient to spawn -1- high or medium value bpo. Instead of risking to create -10- possible points where things could go wrong.

As you said yourself, 1 time lucky possible without a doubt. 10 times without further explination would surely make ppl raise eyebrows.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0000
Edited by: Logan Feynman on 07/02/2007 11:57:24
Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
ummm you've taken my post out of context and trying to twist it...CHEATS!

This is not about "you", "me", "them", or anything else. This is about allegations of dev misconduct, regardless of the alliance they were in.

Incident with faction-fitted scorpion gave reasons to believe that, if any miscondut was found, it would be stated so (which happened then). It was not.

The only thing Kieron stated was that some people unfortunately lost their accounts.

Either Kieron is BoB, CCP heads are all BoB, or this whole matter was blown out of proportion by some conspiracy fanatics.

Say "screw you CCP and BoD" and leave or think it through and STFU. Or wait a bit more in case Kieron decides to post a clarification for the thinking-impaired.

Edit: Which I doubt anyone would believe that doesn't already believe CCP anyway.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Confirming what ?

He said that the fact one guy had ten bpo's isn't that strange at all.

The real question is wether he spawned them or bought/won them. That's what he meant. The number of them indicates nothing in itself.

No, The dev in question was outed months ago and as a result had to leave RKK - presumably to go to the biomass and be reborn elsewhere per CCPs stance on dev outings. This had nothing to do with Kugu or his site as it happened long before by the way, I think the guy who petitioned this dev for "fixing the t2 lottery" was actually in RKK, his main was never identified. If you know who he is contact Dianabolic as I think he's still looking for him.

The problem here is that when he left he donated his T2 BPOs to RKK rather than taking them with him.

I believe Kugu said he owns(owned) a hulk BPO amongst others - wonder where that is now he's banned.

CAPTAIN THUNK.

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
If CCP had any will at all to fix the tech 2 problem this wouldn't bother the community so much. BoB still has a collection of bpo's longer then my arm, so for all it cares they still have the i-win eve button.

In the end most of the eve fun imo is flying nice toys and blowing things up, Bobbits can do it 95% of the time they are online due to not having to carebear like every other player to fly those toys.

Your post is a perfect example of hidden agenda's of the posters in this thread. You find a good scapegoat (BoB) and accuse them of all that is wrong with your petpeeve (in this case the t2 lottery) and hope CCP will change it by claiming this is the thing that bothers the community.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Aleric Vikyz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:58:00 +0000
I am both disgusted and dissatisfied with CCP's reactions to these claims. It's unfortunate that I need be so cynical and disillusioned about a game whose idea is actually rather grand.

Your paying customer,
Anton (AKA: Aleric)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:51:00
Originally by: dj lightning

As your point about the tech 2 BPOs u sure know alot about what was given out.

I do know what Mr.K presented to the public. Hey mentioned the bpos i refered to. If true or not i cant, similar to anyone else not prove. Ill take, like its the fashion of the day, his word for it on this occasion and just put his blog as a reference for their kind and nature.

As for the first capital ship kill, where is the first Bs, the first hac, the first faction cruiser, the first carrier or the first minging barge (they are ORE ships so special too) ?

A titan was both from background and from the dev blogs always a special, a mystical ship.
Back in 2003 Tomb made statements about titans already and how they would be flying monuments only huge alliances could be afford to fly. A statement which would be nicely backed up by a monument for the first destroyed one.
However i dont remember him talking about dreads or commandships or mining barges.

in that day and age dreads were titans, or maybe you've forgoten those days... how convient

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by UKM Thorgrim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:57:00 +0000
CHEATS .. BAN THE THEM ALL for Cheating

but if the Devs and GM's only favour one side, corp, alliance is there really any point in contuining to play, this game. as it's all a little one sided, as to the best moons, systems, BPO's, you name it,

i beleive that it's not just bob that are to blame,

This looks like the End to a very good game..

Honour & Steel.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kerdrak

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:56:00 +0000
CCP must remove all TechII BPO from game.
CCP must stop playing this game. This game is their source of income not their source of leisure... The game is for the players.

If CCP doesn't do that 2 points, corruption will continue...

________________________________________
First atheist amarr on EVE

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by ollymac

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:55:00 +0000
as so say mentioned the bpo's that where spawned or given is irrelevent due to the fact the there small makes them less conspicuous at the time. but there value is also in that catergry,but the value after making and selling the produced so said items is in the billions.
all i can say is bob are Cheats !!!!

ollymac

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Starblizz

btw, thanks for conferming what everyone has being saying about bob for ages

confirming what you believe anyways ?

Im not part of the investigation, im not even part of the BoB IGA. I guess we all have to wait on kieron to clear up the t2 bpo thing for the slow kids amongst us.

However my post above gave enough food for thought to ask yourself how awesome those supposed to be haxed t2 bpos really were.
Wouldnt u think a dev cheating, risking his rl job and additionally his 3 years gaming past / future for some iskies would atleast spawn large t2 weapons, hacs, commandships and not ammo + small ships?

I guess this kind of thought never dawned for the hatemongers and forumkids....

if you wanted to draw attention to your self then yes, as a dev you would spawn those bpos. however you your self have pointed out that this would be a great risk.

the simple fact remains: that a dev can/has done this. this alone makes people belive that there is an unbalance.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
ummm you've taken my post out of context and trying to twist it...CHEATS!

God cheated by putting you all in one corporation. Never knew he could be so sadistical.

sry i guess only multiple bob and alts can post there opinions on here

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sally Va

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:53:00 +0000
So this is CCP's official final statement on the matter ?

I cannot even begin to describe how much you've disappointed me.

If my company had built a new car, say a prototype and wants to test how it performs, they take it to a test-track, put it in windtunnels, and undergoes crash-tests with dummies.

Saying 'no it has to be out in the streets of real everyday traffic from day 1' is plain criminal and accidents are bound to happen !

If DEV's need testing to be done, do it in controlled TEST environments, end of story.
DEV's playing EVE and mingling in corporation/alliances/decisionmaking is undermining your company credibility and your game.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ishmael Hansen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:53:00 +0000
If CCP had any will at all to fix the tech 2 problem this wouldn't bother the community so much. BoB still has a collection of bpo's longer then my arm, so for all it cares they still have the i-win eve button.

In the end most of the eve fun imo is flying nice toys and blowing things up, Bobbits can do it 95% of the time they are online due to not having to carebear like every other player to fly those toys.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:52:00 +0000
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:51:00
Originally by: dj lightning

As your point about the tech 2 BPOs u sure know alot about what was given out.

I do know what Mr.K presented to the public. Hey mentioned the bpos i refered to. If true or not i cant, similar to anyone else not prove. Ill take, like its the fashion of the day, his word for it on this occasion and just put his blog as a reference for their kind and nature.

As for the first capital ship kill, where is the first Bs, the first hac, the first faction cruiser, the first carrier or the first minging barge (they are ORE ships so special too) ?

A titan was both from background and from the dev blogs always a special, a mystical ship.
Back in 2003 Tomb made statements about titans already and how they would be flying monuments only huge alliances could be afford to fly. A statement which would be nicely backed up by a monument for the first destroyed one.
However i dont remember him talking about dreads or commandships or mining barges.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kldraina

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:50:00 +0000
People keep complaining about how kieron's post doesn't ease the suspicions of CCP bias. Maybe the real reason kieron's post is so vapid, is because he is secretly trying to make all of EVE rise up against BoB.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dj lightning

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:49:00 +0000
Edited by: dj lightning on 07/02/2007 11:45:55
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:28:24
Originally by: dj lightning
Just shows u are only where u are b/c u are CHEATS.

I also remeber a CNR and Nighthawk take down 5 IAC ships in the championships the CNR was not even taking any shield damage 1 word HAX.

As for the tech 2 BPOs u have HAXED that has got u important isk for Mothership/Titan BPOs + more tech 2 BPOs in my book u will always be CHEATS.

1 more thing as for the Titan wreak where is the 1st dread wreak in game CCP or was it b/c we was NBSI and not BOB that u have not put this in.

DJ

I hope ure not serious with that post....

If you are i recommend you
a) check the Tournament Video again since ure lacking abit of info or remmeber it abit different then the rest of us.
b) reconsider / recalculate the amount of isk those ammo bpos + the 2 ship bpos can produce and compare it to the amount needed for the capitals you named.
c) Ask yourself what kind of real proof you have that someone actually rigged the t2 lottery from another account for BoB chars and if or how that is even possible (sorry i lack the dev skills to know how all gamemechanics work)
d) reconsider and compare the importance of the first dread kill - worth 1.5 bln isk, very common ship, for everyone and his dog affordable and flyable to the first titan kill - worth 150 bln isk, 3-5 ingame, highly unlikely to ever reach common status due to the nature and work it requires till its build.
It was the 1st ever CAPITAL SHIP to be killed and the biggest ingame at that time when they was few dreads ingame its not about isk value its about eve history but b/c we are not in BOB that it does not matter.

As your point about the tech 2 BPOs u sure know alot about what was given out.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:49:00 +0000

Originally by: Starblizz

btw, thanks for conferming what everyone has being saying about bob for ages

confirming what you believe anyways ?

Im not part of the investigation, im not even part of the BoB IGA. I guess we all have to wait on kieron to clear up the t2 bpo thing for the slow kids amongst us.

However my post above gave enough food for thought to ask yourself how awesome those supposed to be haxed t2 bpos really were.
Wouldnt u think a dev cheating, risking his rl job and additionally his 3 years gaming past / future for some iskies would atleast spawn large t2 weapons, hacs, commandships and not ammo + small ships?

I guess this kind of thought never dawned for the hatemongers and forumkids....

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:49:00 +0000
Edited by: SNeAkYbRiT on 07/02/2007 11:49:16
ummm you've taken my post out of context and trying to twist it...CHEATS!

ever thought that spawning the lower T2 BPO's wouldnt be noticed as much but still give an advantage...guess not, but continue with the put downs cos ya making ya self look pretty slow.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:47:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT

so can i have them BPO's as well plz????

I guess not so wake up bud this is CHEATING if we all cant have these BPO's why should BoB.

Huh?
Winning or buying T2 BPO's is cheating?

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:47:00 +0000
Confirming what ?

He said that the fact one guy had ten bpo's isn't that strange at all.

The real question is wether he spawned them or bought/won them. That's what he meant. The number of them indicates nothing in itself.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:39:09
Originally by: Ander

Fact(?): The CCP dev player had 10 t2 bpo's which he left to BoB.
Question: What's the chance of accumulating 10 t2 bpo's on a few characters? How many characters did he have? Did he pay for all "player" accounts/characters which got bpos through R&D?

of those 10 bpos 8 were ammo bpos as far as im aware. Those 8 bpos would be worth about 10-15 bln isk in total. Not a huge sum if you buy them over time.
The other 2 Bpos which i remember were a malediction and a sabre. Both no items which cant be afforded.

I myself bought in the early days of eve an interceptor bpo for 1 bln isk and i know of a few non BoB guys selling their t2 cruiser bpos for 30bln isk so ask yourself how likely it is to gain enough wealth to be in the possession of 10 (minor) t2 bpos, even with just a single agent (who drops a t2 cruiser bpo of a ship in demand).

The questions of how many bpos he got is really pointless. I got a m8 who got 3 bpos from 5 agents while one of my char got 1 and the other got 0. The lottery system was always borked.

btw, thanks for conferming what everyone has being saying about bob for ages

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:39:09
Originally by: Ander

Fact(?): The CCP dev player had 10 t2 bpo's which he left to BoB.
Question: What's the chance of accumulating 10 t2 bpo's on a few characters? How many characters did he have? Did he pay for all "player" accounts/characters which got bpos through R&D?

of those 10 bpos 8 were ammo bpos as far as im aware. Those 8 bpos would be worth about 10-15 bln isk in total. Not a huge sum if you buy them over time.
The other 2 Bpos which i remember were a malediction and a sabre. Both no items which cant be afforded.

I myself bought in the early days of eve an interceptor bpo for 1 bln isk and i know of a few non BoB guys selling their t2 cruiser bpos for 30bln isk so ask yourself how likely it is to gain enough wealth to be in the possession of 10 (minor) t2 bpos, even with just a single agent (who drops a t2 cruiser bpo of a ship in demand).

The questions of how many bpos he got is really pointless. I got a m8 who got 3 bpos from 5 agents while one of my char got 1 and the other got 0. The lottery system was always borked.

so can i have them BPO's as well plz????

I guess not so wake up bud this is CHEATING if we all cant have these BPO's why should BoB.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:40:00 +0000
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:39:09
Originally by: Ander

Fact(?): The CCP dev player had 10 t2 bpo's which he left to BoB.
Question: What's the chance of accumulating 10 t2 bpo's on a few characters? How many characters did he have? Did he pay for all "player" accounts/characters which got bpos through R&D?

of those 10 bpos 8 were ammo bpos as far as im aware. Those 8 bpos would be worth about 10-15 bln isk in total. Not a huge sum if you buy them over time.
The other 2 Bpos which i remember were a malediction and a sabre. Both no items which cant be afforded.

I myself bought in the early days of eve an interceptor bpo for 1 bln isk and i know of a few non BoB guys selling their t2 cruiser bpos for 30bln isk so ask yourself how likely it is to gain enough wealth to be in the possession of 10 (minor) t2 bpos, even with just a single agent (who drops a t2 cruiser bpo of a ship in demand).

The questions of how many bpos he got is really pointless. I got a m8 who got 3 bpos from 5 agents while one of my char got 1 and the other got 0. The lottery system was always borked.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Xoria Krint

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:39:00 +0000
If you knew you had a dev in your corp and he traded you a tech II bpo and said he spawned it for you, Would you accept it?

If you where hauling expensive **** and needed information about the route, would you ask the dev to scout it for you?

Have you ever seen/heard that someone broke the EULA without sending a petition?
Account Sharing/IRL money sales/third party programs?

Some of us might say yes. Some of us no.
Would love to see some honest answerers on these question. But the guys that say yes to any of this question would probably not admit it. In my opinion its not the player that cheat if they say yes to a spawned tech II bpo, its the dev.

Banning Kugusuhblaha was wrong in my opinion, I would like to see the vise versa. Facing court but not banned.

Don't hate the player, hate the dev.

Im not from a English speaking country so there might be some grammatic/spelling wrong.
---

My Movies

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:37:00 +0000
What I find more disturbing than the lack of "meat" in Kieron's OP is the verbal dhiarrea spewed forth by some members of this community. This is not the thread to discuss allegiances to one "side" or the other, but rather a conduit to discuss said allegations and the apparent conclusion of the investigate.

If you can't put forth your thoughts without the use of name-calling and personal attacks, then you need to back up and rethink what you're trying to say.

As "normal' paying members of this community, we're not privy to the internal discussions within CCP or (for that matter) those they may be on contact with regarding these allegations. For all we know, the reasons behind this investigation could reach much further than Kugutsumen's allegations and "evidence."

Personally, I could care less which alliance this happened to or in. What I DO care about is if all members are afforded the same level playing field. That is the crux (or at least what I understood it to be) of the investigation.

Clearly, the explanation within the OP wasn't enough to even distinguish if all of the allegations that were put forth were investigated.

Maybe we just need to simmer it down and wait for an additional (ad much clearer) statement from CCP that can put all if this to rest. Obviously if it doesn't come within a reasonable timeframe then maybe there's something more to it. But until then all this name-calling and bickering does nothing but lower the community's attractiveness to many current and would-be players.

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Palmtree

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Mar vel
Iraf and Gringeley got it spot-on. Not a ton to add to those very, very effective arguments.

Kieron (CCP) - political double-talk is not your forte. Stick to coding games. You're dealing with an highly-advanced player base here - and there are vast numbers of us who navigate and negotiate situations like these for snacks.

CCP's answers do little to assuage the festering hostility felt by your community - why? Well let's re-state the issue for the learning impaired:

1. Manipulating the T2 lottery system to provide BPO's to an alliance - for a *random* lottery it sure does smack of impropriety that one individual could get 10 BPO's, let alone one player who is a Dev AND playing for the most wealthy, unchallenged alliance in the game.

2. Lying about playing in Bob.

3. Ignoring the need to act with responsible behaviour in terms of maintaining a level playing field for ALL customers.

For my money - your *findings statement* says very little and does even less.

You guys got bagged red handed and did zero about it. What that tells me is that the persons involved are too high up to fire or censor.

And I really question your seriousness when you are fishing for sympathy votes by telling us you'll have to retire characters. Why do I care if you have to retire your characters? -not my problem, or anyone else's - and if you guys had been stand-up guys about the whole thing from the very begining, it would have never been an issue. All you had to do was play fairly, not play favorites, keep attention away from yourselves and keep your mouths shut. You can hardly complain to the community because you have to sack your character due to your own ignorance and corruption. So sad. - and anyway, you guys will slap a new name / face on them and call it good, so big deal. So you won't have the coolest character name in your Dev area anymore. Bah. Get real, man.

The issue(s) at hand involve customer confidence; innappropriately loading the game in favor of your own player/corp/alliance and at the expense of everyone else is hardly a noble endeavour - regardless or the original intent. There's an existing venue for that - it's SiSi, not TQ.

Will I quit? Probably not. Would CCP really care? Definitely not. Thanks for allowing us to see what we're really worth to you - $14.99 a month and "oh well, minus one won't kill the company" - "now where did I put that Cap Recharger II BPO...".

Not Impressed. Not one bit.

Good post.

I'd just like to add that we players deserve more of an explanation than this. I am very dissapointed by this reply and I look forward to further contact from the DEV's clarifying the situation. Trust is an integral part of a game like this, and I think that I am not the only one that does not trust CCP's handling of the issue at the moment.

I think the statment "Not Impressed. Not one bit." sums up my opinion of the situation.

I hope that we get another post on the subject. This issue has not been resolved in my (and many other players') opinions.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:33:00 +0000
proof or go away {is that better?} is a stupid answer in my opinion

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Starblizz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Stalert Balakos
Dear kieron,
Do you really think this statement "will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community"? If so, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.

At the time these allegations first arose you promised us a full investigation. Many of us hoped that you would share the results of that investigation with us but you have not.

You have stated that certain dev characters have been deleted because it had become known that they were used by CCP employees. As I understand it this would have to have happened anyway - whether the allegations were true or not - so this doesn't shed any light on the results of the investigations.

You say that the deletion of these characters is unfortunate, from which we can only infer that they had done nothing wrong, so why not say that? If the investigation revealed that nothing untoward had happened why isn't that written in bold in paragraph one?

It may not satisfy the BoB haters or even (for different reasons) their opposite numbers in the BoB forum squad but for the 90 per cent of us (a pure guesstimate) in the middle it would have been enough.

The fact that you won't share the results of your investigations with us just leads everyone to jump to conclusions and hence you get the resulting flame-filled thread rehashing the same issues all over again.

I'm not interested in seeing anyone's name dragged through the mud, I just want you to tell us straightforwardly what the investigation revealed.

I think you've missed a very good opportunity to once again prove that CCP is the best MMORPG developer out there.

Yours, disillusioned

Stal

i fully agree with this, it just like CCP not conferming that there were any dev's/gms/dev's dog in any IGA. There's more that needs to be said. People have put alot into this game, on both dev and player side. don't let eve go this way...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ander

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:31:00 +0000
Edited by: Ander on 07/02/2007 11:28:11
To summarize what has been posted in this thread...

Fact(?): CCP do give BOB a lot of time in the spotlight.
Question: Does all Alliances get the same amount of time in the spotlight?

Fact(?): The CCP dev player had 10 t2 bpo's which he left to BoB.
Question: What's the chance of accumulating 10 t2 bpo's on a few characters? How many characters did he have? Did he pay for all "player" accounts/characters which got bpos through R&D?

Fact(?): CCP dev player lead the BoB capital fleet.
Question: Did BoB favor from forhand info about how gamemechanics work?

Allegations: Appearently BoB moves their dread fleets very quickly, are there any "hints" given out which other players don't know about?

Fact: Kugutsumen got all of his accounts banned for revealing which characters a dev was playing and accused him of having inflicted monetary loss to CCP or.. "higher maintenance costs".
Question: Why does CCP use the banstick and solving these issues by:
1. Posting dev-post which says "we've looked very seriously into all of this, we monitor our employees who play the game - we love eve.*kisses* ooh and we banned the guy that revealed who a dev was but ignored to ban the guys who posted his personal info in return"
2. lock threads

EVE Online - Pirates

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyrus Ildemar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:31:00 +0000

Originally by: Stalert Balakos
I think you've missed a very good opportunity to once again prove that CCP is the best MMORPG developer out there.

They do have one hell of a mod team though.

Those guys are fast.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:30:00 +0000
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 07/02/2007 11:28:24
Originally by: dj lightning
Just shows u are only where u are b/c u are CHEATS.

I also remeber a CNR and Nighthawk take down 5 IAC ships in the championships the CNR was not even taking any shield damage 1 word HAX.

As for the tech 2 BPOs u have HAXED that has got u important isk for Mothership/Titan BPOs + more tech 2 BPOs in my book u will always be CHEATS.

1 more thing as for the Titan wreak where is the 1st dread wreak in game CCP or was it b/c we was NBSI and not BOB that u have not put this in.

DJ

I hope ure not serious with that post....

If you are i recommend you
a) check the Tournament Video again since ure lacking abit of info or remmeber it abit different then the rest of us.
b) reconsider / recalculate the amount of isk those ammo bpos + the 2 ship bpos can produce and compare it to the amount needed for the capitals you named.
c) Ask yourself what kind of real proof you have that someone actually rigged the t2 lottery from another account for BoB chars and if or how that is even possible (sorry i lack the dev skills to know how all gamemechanics work)
d) reconsider and compare the importance of the first dread kill - worth 1.5 bln isk, very common ship, for everyone and his dog affordable and flyable to the first titan kill - worth 150 bln isk, 3-5 ingame, highly unlikely to ever reach common status due to the nature and work it requires till its build.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Stalert Balakos
You say that the deletion of these characters is unfortunate, from which we can only infer that they had done nothing wrong, so why not say that? If the investigation revealed that nothing untoward had happened why isn't that written in bold in paragraph one?

Agreed.

Your witch hunt either has to have someone publicly burnt at the stake; or has to have the people accused completely pardoned.

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stalert Balakos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:22:00 +0000
Dear kieron,
Do you really think this statement "will put this issue behind us once and for all and allow us to continue moving forward with the support of our community"? If so, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.

At the time these allegations first arose you promised us a full investigation. Many of us hoped that you would share the results of that investigation with us but you have not.

You have stated that certain dev characters have been deleted because it had become known that they were used by CCP employees. As I understand it this would have to have happened anyway - whether the allegations were true or not - so this doesn't shed any light on the results of the investigations.

You say that the deletion of these characters is unfortunate, from which we can only infer that they had done nothing wrong, so why not say that? If the investigation revealed that nothing untoward had happened why isn't that written in bold in paragraph one?

It may not satisfy the BoB haters or even (for different reasons) their opposite numbers in the BoB forum squad but for the 90 per cent of us (a pure guesstimate) in the middle it would have been enough.

The fact that you won't share the results of your investigations with us just leads everyone to jump to conclusions and hence you get the resulting flame-filled thread rehashing the same issues all over again.

I'm not interested in seeing anyone's name dragged through the mud, I just want you to tell us straightforwardly what the investigation revealed.

I think you've missed a very good opportunity to once again prove that CCP is the best MMORPG developer out there.

Yours, disillusioned

Stal

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by dj lightning

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:17:00 +0000
Just shows u are only where u are b/c u are CHEATS.

I also remeber a CNR and Nighthawk take down 5 IAC ships in the championships the CNR was not even taking any shield damage 1 word HAX.

As for the tech 2 BPOs u have HAXED that has got u important isk for Mothership/Titan BPOs + more tech 2 BPOs in my book u will always be CHEATS.

1 more thing as for the Titan wreak where is the 1st dread wreak in game CCP or was it b/c we was NBSI and not BOB that u have not put this in.

DJ

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Danny Hawk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:15:00 +0000
Edited by: Danny Hawk on 07/02/2007 11:12:42
tbh the answer is just not enough in this, and it just makes it look more like ccp are biased in this matter.

*snip* - Cortes

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sathynos

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:12:00 +0000
Edited by: Sathynos on 07/02/2007 11:29:55
Edited by: Sathynos on 07/02/2007 11:14:23
So CCP, you have banned the guy who passe the info and no update if there was a case of misconduct or not? Let me tell you, you have really lost a lot of my trust because of that. A response telling me that you are passionate about the game is nothing - I already knew that. But what about the logs on this guy's website:
- chat logs between dev char and bob ceos stating about telling inside info
- BPOs stuff
- early event infos
- the whole rest of what's there
You have nothing to say about that? Close your eyes, nothing happened?
And banning this guy to shut him up? What kind of "we are passionate" is that!

--
"Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing.
Eve mercenaries portal: http://www.eve-mercs.com

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Niaski Zalani

Alledged illegal action.

You're right, but no need to defend it so much, especially from a professional point of view. And yes, i know dutch hosters have that policy :)

I'm defending it because I think he's got just as much rights as anyone else to have his site hosted, irregardless of the content of said site. That and on a personal level I'm tired of the "omg he's a hax0r! kill! kill! kill!" mentality. He might've hacked a few forums, and gotten his information off it, but the forums are still there, and nothing apparently got deleted, or we would've heard the whining in here about it by now.

Be glad that it might've been Kugutsumen, it could just as well have been a script kiddie that would've wiped your db's and replaced your forum with a goatse.cx picture.

yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:09:00 +0000
lol Kcel Chim a DICE alt well what did we expect from you ROFLMAO

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Niaski Zalani

Alledged illegal action.

Aren't we meant to presume guilt and get him to prove otherwise?

I thought the idea was innocent until proven guilty?

So it's alledged. Proof or STFU :)

Oh, so CCP and BoB are innocent then?
Glad we cleared that up.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:09:00 +0000
I'm only seeing Avon, Rod Blaine and Kcel whathisnamefromfive posting here in support of BoB - can anyone really imagine a situation where any of these 3 wouldn't?

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Fi T'Zeh

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:09:00 +0000
I am disappointed as most of the rest of the posters in this thread that Kieron will not or cannot be more equivocable in his statement. The character, and i'm not talking about toons here, of some of my very closest friends has been grossley besmirched, and there is nothing here that confirms or denys whether those claims were justified.

I don't care about our in game "reputation", in fact I revel in it. We're the "bad guys" we know, and we deal with it. Infact it's a change for me, because if you asked any of my mates (bob or otherwise) they'd tell you I was a "nice bloke". (Unlike Avon who's actually an arse irl )

What disappoints me in this statement is a lack of, well, anything. I can't defend my friends or conversely accept that they did anything wrong because there's nothing stated.
....

Playing EVE on easy mode since May 2003.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:08:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
All I'm going to say on this "Devs and BoB" is now we know that BoB need and have to CHEAT and that the Devs themselves have to cheat at the game they help produce, sorry guys u suck...do the right thing and remove all BPO's that was seeded to BoB and sort out the T2 lottery. Sorry CCP it just shows everybody that pays your wages you cant step up and be fair, you screw us for cash and then ask us to beta test this game for you and then you CHEAT!

In my eyes BoB are now the biggest joke because they need to have help compared to everyone else that work hard in the game.

So when i see a BoB in space i will laugh and call them a cheat, I don't care if they are a normal player but to me all of BoB are CHEATS cause they need the help of the DEVS to play this game...i know if i die to one my loss mail if allowed by my CEO will not be posted

Heard that you are even making a monument of Cyvoks Titan wreck...you have time to do this but fix nothing else? and to make a monument for BoB lol your are taking the p***

I SAY TO ALL, IF THIS DOESNT GET SORTED all paying customers that see this unfair should stop paying and close their accounts for 1 month to show CCP we are the ones that PAY them and should show a little respect to its paying customers!!!!!!!!!!

lol, can someone please return SNeAkYbRiT's braincells, he seems to have misplaced them.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:08:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT
I SAY TO ALL, IF THIS DOESNT GET SORTED all paying customers that see this unfair should stop paying and close their accounts for 1 month to show CCP we are the ones that PAY them and should show a little respect to its paying customers!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, the community needs to do something about this, BOB wouldnt be where they are now, without the knowledge/T2 BPO/Faction stuff aquired from these rouge dev's.

BTW.. Did they cheat during the championships?
Cheaters never prosper!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Luna Liandri

always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...

boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.

Shoot the messenger that used illegal action to obtain his message. Yes, please do shoot and don't miss.

Alledged illegal action.

Aren't we meant to presume guilt and get him to prove otherwise?

I thought the idea was innocent until proven guilty?

So it's alledged. Proof or STFU :)
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:04:00 +0000

Originally by: SNeAkYbRiT

I SAY TO ALL, IF THIS DOESNT GET SORTED all paying customers that see this unfair should stop paying and close their accounts for 1 month to show CCP we are the ones that PAY them and should show a little respect to its paying customers!!!!!!!!!!

can i have your stuff and could you please as a gesture of superiority and defiance not reactivate your account after that phase? Im sure that will show them their wrongdoings and force ccp to bow to your demands.

Silly argument dude and stay of the pills youre coming across way to aggressive.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:02:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 11:01:57
Even treatment is fine with me, but I do wonder wether people don't sit too close to their monitors to even discern what is true and what is reasonable these days.

A great pity imo.

edit: see example above.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SNeAkYbRiT

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:00:00 +0000
All I'm going to say on this "Devs and BoB" is now we know that BoB need and have to CHEAT and that the Devs themselves have to cheat at the game they help produce, sorry guys u suck...do the right thing and remove all BPO's that was seeded to BoB and sort out the T2 lottery. Sorry CCP it just shows everybody that pays your wages you cant step up and be fair, you screw us for cash and then ask us to beta test this game for you and then you CHEAT!

In my eyes BoB are now the biggest joke because they need to have help compared to everyone else that work hard in the game.

So when i see a BoB in space i will laugh and call them a cheat, I don't care if they are a normal player but to me all of BoB are CHEATS cause they need the help of the DEVS to play this game...i know if i die to one my loss mail if allowed by my CEO will not be posted

Heard that you are even making a monument of Cyvoks Titan wreck...you have time to do this but fix nothing else? and to make a monument for BoB lol your are taking the p***

I SAY TO ALL, IF THIS DOESNT GET SORTED all paying customers that see this unfair should stop paying and close their accounts for 1 month to show CCP we are the ones that PAY them and should show a little respect to its paying customers!!!!!!!!!!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dragutinovic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:46:25
Originally by: Dragutinovic
Then some of you lot should get a ban as well tbh .
You gotta agree with me that some of you get away on teh forums andingame with a lot more then others .

If we do it's because we mostly excalate in reaction to trolling. It's also a fact that most BoB active posters are good at treading the line.
Quote:

Rockduiveltje incident : -> No actions taken
****uko -Yaeko (sp) incident : -> No actions taken
Goonswarm incident : -> No actions taken

Please explain these. I know that rockduiveltje was more or less insulted quite heavily back then. Not that she was any better as far as I remember, but I forget what exactly happened there.

Quote:

You lot demanded the " ebayers " and " macroers "of PA to get slapped and kicked , yet some of you are guilty to that as well .

We are ? And we did ?

Quote:
i do demand some of BoB due get their asses kicked .

Quote:

Makes you wonder if its worth keep fighting teh good fight in this game as so to speak .

The good fight ?
Beam, eye, pot, kettle, black, whatever ?

During the PA war things got out of hand as well o teh smack/propaganda front. They always do. I personally find that a bit sad, but it's mostly due to the same thigns that make this game great so you take it in your stride.

Things become rather different once immediate wars are over tho. What i cannot understand and never have udnerstood is that alot of people don't seem able to let the tension level lower again after a war has been decided ingame, and continue to not just smack and spread lies, but also seem to actually believe wha they say.

If anything, it's fanboyism that's killing Eve.

That time is wel beyond me and i wasnt active at all on teh forums .

Ive posted during the Goonincident about Rockduiveltje to prevent what has happend before , not because your BoB , not becaus they were Goons but for teh person behind that avatar .

Im all for drama etc etc its what makes this game so good but some stuff are a no-go in case of certain members of yer alliance they got away with it even tho back then proof washanded to CCP on a silver plate .

All i ask for is an even threatment , not dismantling BoB cuz K.man says you cheat .
_____________

Im back !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jonaaz Dsz

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:51:00 +0000
Those BPOs, were they all legit, all 10 of them.

Those "proofs" being supplied, where they proofs or were they inventions of a single person.

Yes there is a witch hunt going right now, and that it itself is spiraling .. but the hard case evidence.

The only thing I've seen sofar is

- some devs were named and hence deleted.

end of story ...

So the only wrong doing of this entire case is - some devs were named. Yes and ...

but they do anything wrong? Did they do any misconduct?

"magnibit lenibit ulteribit" Oberon Inc, incl Oberon Tech II sales

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Zzleeper

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:50:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Last but not least ask yourself about Mr.K and his dubious ways. You think a criminal, albeit one who cant be persecuted due to his homecountry, is the most reliable source of information, especially if you PAY him for it ? What keeps him from pulling a huge scam on you to just get to your isk ? You have no way to verify the info he is presenting and you keep paying for beyond the point that some of it -might- or -could- be true. True as saying a hurricane is also just some wind...

Mr. K only came out with what half the alliance's knew or suspected anyway... Speak to the hand!!!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:50:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Logic, sidestep ?

I didn't see any logic that I havent adressed earlier already.

Normal healthy and respectfull players stfu when they connect a dev with a player account. The CCP rule on recycling those character when thay are made public isn't there to protect you, but to protect them from being harrased by people with questions, statements and utterly idiotic accusations.

What protects you is the auditing and the ethos of CCP employees, and that's quite enough.

your faith in the ethos of CCP employees sure is a fine thing.
and i cant blame it - as they were your ingame friends.

unfortunatly it negates human nature on both sides - be it your & your friends (quoted kieron) side or of all others who are not "friends with devs".
i for myself dont trust devs that are connected to 0.0 alliances and it seems EvE minus BoB share my point of view. even if there would be complete transparency and openness of the how/who/who not/enforcement of such policies i would prefer to have them not in alliance politics.

which brings me back to my initial statement in this thread ...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ogul

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:50:00 +0000
The magnitude of this discussion is the best indication as to why devs should not play the game.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Bertram Russel

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:50:00 +0000
Devs play eve in alliances? sure! ofc they should.
Dev misconduct when they play in alliances? Well it follows from above statement that there will be a conflict of interest between helping your friends and stay true to ccp policy (if there is any?!).

I think well have to live with this problem as long as devs are human and need to play the game in this way. As long as someone think theyll get away with something theyll do it. Thats why I don't think anyone will find much proof exept on bob forums :P

A workaround for me would be to have firm rules for devs posted publicly so anyone can see what and whatnot there supposed to do with their ordinary accounts, like "dont tell anyone your a dev". And somekind of transparancy of any misconduct. Afaik anything that we know about thats transpired is discovered by the likes of K and not any ccp investigation. That leaves alot to be desired for me anyway. Suffice to say my trust in ccp is damaged hopefully not beyond repair and the fun factor in eve is lovered by about 8347829348923. :(

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Silmas

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:50:00 +0000
I thank you for the information posted kieron, but I find it lacking.

So I hope there is more to come.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:49:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:46:25
Originally by: Dragutinovic
Then some of you lot should get a ban as well tbh .
You gotta agree with me that some of you get away on teh forums andingame with a lot more then others .

If we do it's because we mostly excalate in reaction to trolling. It's also a fact that most BoB active posters are good at treading the line.
Quote:

Rockduiveltje incident : -> No actions taken
****uko -Yaeko (sp) incident : -> No actions taken
Goonswarm incident : -> No actions taken

Please explain these. I know that rockduiveltje was more or less insulted quite heavily back then. Not that she was any better as far as I remember, but I forget what exactly happened there.

Quote:

You lot demanded the " ebayers " and " macroers "of PA to get slapped and kicked , yet some of you are guilty to that as well .

We are ? And we did ?

Quote:
i do demand some of BoB due get their asses kicked .

Quote:

Makes you wonder if its worth keep fighting teh good fight in this game as so to speak .

The good fight ?
Beam, eye, pot, kettle, black, whatever ?

During the PA war things got out of hand as well o teh smack/propaganda front. They always do. I personally find that a bit sad, but it's mostly due to the same thigns that make this game great so you take it in your stride.

Things become rather different once immediate wars are over tho. What i cannot understand and never have udnerstood is that alot of people don't seem able to let the tension level lower again after a war has been decided ingame, and continue to not just smack and spread lies, but also seem to actually believe wha they say.

If anything, it's fanboyism that's killing Eve.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

Alledged illegal action.

You're right, but no need to defend it so much, especially from a professional point of view. And yes, i know dutch hosters have that policy :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sephiraa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

I don't really see where you are trying to go with your post.

I don't feel I was being obtuse. You said "witch hunt" about 3427567 times, and I pointed that it doesn't appear to be a witch hunt at all. Keep spinning though. Perhaps people will be able to somehow stop noticing the gigantic elephant in the living room.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:45:00 +0000
So we're back to the "yes he hacked our forums but didn't actually post anything from them, just lies" arguments again.

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by 31i73

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

I think you are missing the point here. Its not about how devs shouldn't play the game being in bob. Its about giving unfair advantage via ingame items, or knowledge of events.

Besides, you should be happy, you won. The guy that dared to oppose you can't play his chars anymore, and now this: CCP just deletes the chars that got revealed, you can still continue playing as you have.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Mr Bananas

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:38:00 +0000
Perhaps that fellow would like to out some forum mod identities? I doubt anybody would be much surprised, though.
I am consistently unhappy with the quality of moderation in these forums.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dragutinovic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:37:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15
Are you for real Luticus ?

He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.

How can you even defend such an idiot ?

Then some of you lot should get a ban as well tbh .
You gotta agree with me that some of you get away on teh forums andingame with a lot more then others .

Rockduiveltje incident : -> No actions taken
****uko -Yaeko (sp) incident : -> No actions taken
Goonswarm incident : -> No actions taken

You lot demanded the " ebayers " and " macroers "of PA to get slapped and kicked , yet some of you are guilty to that as well .

As for the dev/gm/bpo thingy i leave that to the " wichhunters " however after teh Goon incident and now this i do demand some of BoB due get their asses kicked .

_____________

Im back !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:36:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Captain Thunk

Cheers for the BoB spin bud, but I don't think it'll be working this time.

I wasn't referring to the BoB guy who got banned for the 0isk macro (which I believe requires python injection code, if CCP think that's only worth 2 weeks thats up to them) - he was never kicked from the corp though, he just waited out the ban - no need to "let him back in" as he never actually left. I was actually referring to the 10/10 complex BoB rent to macroers for a large slice of ISK.

As I said, in order to compete on the same level with BoB those that continue to pay their subscription will certainly consider ignoring their EULA as so long as nothing written ingame leaves a trail you will get off scot free, plead ignorance or claim it's a massive conspiracy because people are jealous.

Like it or not, BoBs killing Eve - apathy won't save it.

CAPTAIN THUNK

Its no spin to have a different view then you have.
As for the macroer "let back in". The case was discussed with him and there was an option he would be kicked when it got known that his acc was temp banned. To let him back in might be morally wrong in the worst case but its up to the bob leadership to decide not up to you. It would be equally morally wrong to let in a guy with a forumban, since technically he also violated the rules ccp setup for this community.

As for the whole "known macroers" mumbojumbo, BoB rented a plex to a corp. Any corp can rent a plex with BoB. If you have doubts about a corp doing "macroing" file a petition.
As much as you would love to believe it BoB is not ccp and hence cant deal with ingame eula issues and wont believe every wild accusation you or the other fanboys fire off.
If the corp in question was caught cheating the bob leadership would terminate the plex contract. Not guilty until proven otherwise, a saying you might wanna think about before you push the reply button once again because i highly doubt uve understood it.

As I said, I was never talking about the macroer - thanks for yet another paragraph on him anyway.

The macroing "mumbo-jumbo" is a reference to the conversation Sir Molle and DBP had regarding renting that complex to a particular corp where they both stated that they were macroing and considering how much of the profit they could squeeze out of him...but admidst all this confirmed evidence that's the one Kugu made up isn't it?

As I said - plausible deniability - Because the BoB leadership are getting away with blatant cheating, others are now going to follow suit knowing full well that so long as they don't use ingame chat or evemails to discuss it they have a guaranteed chance of getting away with it - how else are they expected to compete against "the best"?

You may call it "highlevel gaming" I call it the end.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by bioqaz eylee

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:35:00 +0000
who cares where the information came from, whether it be BOB, a hacker, the press, off the back of a crisp packet, my wife mumbling in her sleep or even picked up via shot wave radio.

Surly all that matters is what is being done about it. and that seems not a lot from what we are being told.

bio

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:34:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:32:25
Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15
Are you for real Luticus ?

He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.

How can you even defend such an idiot ?

always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...

boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.

Logic, sidestep ?

I didn't see any logic that I havent adressed earlier already.

Normal healthy and respectfull players stfu when they connect a dev with a player account. The CCP rule on recycling those character when thay are made public isn't there to protect you, but to protect them from being harrased by people with questions, statements and utterly idiotic accusations.

What protects you is the auditing and the ethos of CCP employees, and that's quite enough.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:33:00 +0000

Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Originally by: Sinlare
Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.

What he does is not illegal where he lives, and pretexting is also illegal in many parts of the world.

thank god ccp is an icelandic company and the servers he hacked are in the uk/us so all the semi legal rambling of how it is legal for him to hack and phish is bollox.
Btw not beeing illegal doesnt mean encouraging in a legal way.

As for poor Kungu stumbeling over this evidence, he hacked into forums and mailboxes with the intent to find something interesting in a taboloid way. The info about the dev was -Not- posted in a regular thread for everyone to read but it was found in the inbox of one of the board users. So hardly "known amongst BoB".

Last but not least the trustworthyness of the information.
The "finder" as in Mr.K. admitted on the goonforum to be a hacker, Mr.K was already filed a punishment for hacking, Mr. K more or less openly admitted to hack, either himself or one of his companions, forums. Trustworthy over Kieron ? Not in my book.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sephiraa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

Your post was a terrible example of effective propoganda. There are few facts here that we can be certain of, but, we can be certain of them.

1. K. named several characters in the BoB alliance exclusively, as being employees of CCP.
2. K. made some other rather damning claims about actions by specific and named members of the BoB alliance.
3. In response, Kieron and Oveur made posts regarding an investigation being made into these claims.
4. Kieron posted "a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game."

These are all FACTS. There is no tinfoil hattery in the above. There is no smear campaign that can be debated about these points.

This is not a witch hunt, but yes, these are truly sad times indeed. Especially so, considering that since #1 has been shown to be true, then #2 is quite likely equally true. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter how that truth was obtained, and all the "witch hunt" and "but... but.. he's an evil bad hacker" cries in the world will be unable to obfuscate the grim reality the EVE community is now facing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:29:00 +0000

Originally by: Luna Liandri

always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...

boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.

Shoot the messenger that used illegal action to obtain his message. Yes, please do shoot and don't miss.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:25:00 +0000

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15
Are you for real Luticus ?

He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.

How can you even defend such an idiot ?

always the same game - shoot the messenger, sidestep the topic ...

boring, and i may add i've seen better quality posts from RB.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:25:00 +0000
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 10:23:50
Originally by: Alakazam

What do you expect the community to think?

I don't care what they community actually think, just so long as they *DO* actually think.

The problem is that many aren't thinking, they are happy to be swept along on a wave of popular hysteria.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:24:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lyticus

Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.

- Lyticus

So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me?
The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?

No, you are missing my point.

I explained that the devs were telling others that they were devs, releasing the information onto their forums and generally behaving in an illicit manner.

What everyone seems to be focusing on is the manner in which kugutsumen obtained the information, which was by entering into the BOB forums and browsing their sensitive areas.

The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.

So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?

I put it to you that the devs are originally to blame for this entire situation, and thus the fallout should not affect members of the community which had no control over the informations initial distrubution.

If someone else had discovered this and had not presented it to all the EVE community via the forums, it would have been discovered through the g*****vine in due time.

EVE isn't as big as everyone thinks.

- Lyticus

First of all, he did not bump into that information. He hacked into forums with the specific intent to find anything that could be interpreted as unacceptable behaviour. He posted snippets from there, and we have no means to discern how much is true and how much was fabricated on the spot.

The argument "parts are true, therefore all the other parts must be true" is a very weak one, if you know your logic. And this is the way most yellow press works ... part true, part fabrication. The only ones that will know the entire story are CCP, and you can either:

a) trust them and STFU
b) not trust them and leave the game

Pick one, act on it. While it would be peachy to hear more from Kieron on this, I highly doubt it. This is all there is. This is whyt you get to make your choice on.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:24:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80

Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.

I know I certainly would.

I think everyone does and hopefully ccp will see that too. It just so sad to see people defending a really bad person and taking so much joy out of developers getting fired in real life.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Myz Toyou

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:24:00 +0000
Poor, poor show CCP !
First banning all accounts from that guy who brought the mud into the light to shut his mouth.
Now that statement that sounds like Rumsfeld asked about chemical stuff in Iraq !
Looks to me very fishy !!!

CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.

What he does is not illegal where he lives, and pretexting is also illegal in many parts of the world.

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyticus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:23:00 +0000
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 10:20:59
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Lyticus

The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.

So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?

Yes it's the devs fault
Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.

More wrong eh?

EDIT: Post above has a good point, its only be alleged, not proved.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Originally by: Sinlare
The philosophy of both entities doesn't even come close.

I know what you are--an idiot. I also know what you aren't--Niaski Zalani's spokesman. You're putting out some really, really weak trolling here.

I like what you're doing, keep it up :)

A customer is a customer is a customer until a court order says otherwise. I think most hosters in NL share that same mindset.

yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:22:00 +0000

Originally by: FireFoxx80
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

Stuff

Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.

I know I certainly would.

As would I.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Drakma

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:22:00 +0000
OMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

-----------------

Gekidoku is recruiting

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Logan Feynman
Originally by: Luna Liandri
Originally by: Lyticus
Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence

Amen.

Originally by: Suspension and Ban policy, section 7

e. Publishes private communications from CCP, Siminn, their agents or representatives, including members of the EVE volunteer program, within the game world, official web site, or other venues without authorization.

ah they devs were playing as CCP representatives ?
BoB are CCP representatives ?

interesting new twist...

no he was threatening ccp staff members not once but multiple times. Which is covered in another paragraph as a bannable offence. Furthermore he posted rl information about some devs which is and always was enough for a ban.
The policy was and is "if you uncover a dev/ccp employee or find one whos cover is blown mail kieron" and not "try to blackmail for isk and damage ccps reputation on the forums".

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:21:00 +0000
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 07/02/2007 10:18:15
Are you for real Luticus ?

He broke the law and caused indirect financial damage to CCP by doing it. He should be glad he has no legal action taken by CCP.

How can you even defend such an idiot ?

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:21:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus

The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.

So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?

Yes it's the devs fault
Kugutsumen will always be more in the wrong then any dev, since he's the one sporting illegal methods.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:19:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

Stuff

Avon, I think most rational people in Eve would like to simply see a thorough and public investigation. Even if it incriminated people in their own corporation/alliances.

I know I certainly would.

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyticus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Lyticus

Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.

- Lyticus

So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me?
The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?

No, you are missing my point.

I explained that the devs were telling others that they were devs, releasing the information onto their forums and generally behaving in an illicit manner.

What everyone seems to be focusing on is the manner in which kugutsumen obtained the information, which was by entering into the BOB forums and browsing their sensitive areas.

The point is that it was the devs who shared their sensitive information with others, so it is they who are at fault from the very beginning. If the devs had been discreet as they are supposed to be, none of this would have happened. Its not like Kugutsumen went deliberately looking for devs information, he was likely gathering intelligence on other in-game matters and stumbled upon this.

So I ask you, who should be punished, the devs for their failure to remain candid in their relationship to CCP and the power which they weild, or the fellow who bumped into this information?

I put it to you that the devs are originally to blame for this entire situation, and thus the fallout should not affect members of the community which had no control over the informations initial distrubution.

If someone else had discovered this and had not presented it to all the EVE community via the forums, it would have been discovered through the g*****vine in due time.

EVE isn't as big as everyone thinks.

- Lyticus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:16:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 10:07:00
Originally by: Lyticus

Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.

- Lyticus

So, if I (for example), set up a community website that would phish for browser cookies to try and obtain your e-o forum (and thus account) login details, CCP should take no action against me?
The should allow me to potentially compromise the security of users simply because I haven't actually done anything wrong "ingame" until I actually use the stolen account details?

Added: Post above nails the rest.

good example avon. Just go one step further imagine that fansite not just phish for your login details, in which case ccp could take steps due to an eula violation but instead of other passwords. Passwords which are maybe connected to your work or bank and hence wouldnt really fall under ccps jurisdiction since technically they are not related to eve, eventho the "binding elemet" of all the cases would be the game....

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Alakazam

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:14:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 07/02/2007 09:55:42
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.
[..]
Sad times.

What do you expect the community to think?

In the beginning I was just laughing at the BoB postings where you said you had to use node-crash buttons, having devs in your team, ofcourse you were cheating etc- I knew you were playing the same rules as the rest of us.

But then this thing happened and I thought, hang on a second?! what if there is something to it? _what if_?

And still BoB members have this top-down approach to the rest of the community regarding this issue. Still stating you have more access then the rest of us. There is no empathy with the rest of the community. That saddens me.

No smoke without fire, it makes me think twice now and I wish I wouldn't do that...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
The philosophy of both entities doesn't even come close.

I know what you are--an idiot. I also know what you aren't--Niaski Zalani's spokesman. You're putting out some really, really weak trolling here.

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ashail

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:06:00 +0000
Hey cortes, delete this.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence

Amen.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Alakazam

- How many devs were in BoB?

Who knows, it doesn't matter much. I believe it was like 3 or 5 or something that were named.
Quote:

- Did BoB know they were devs?

Not relevant. A good ethical player that finds out about the player identity of a dev shuts the **** up and lets the dev get one with his gameplay. Yes it creates an awkward situation because you don't want a dev to be put in a position where his interests collide. It's when the retards get hold of dev identities and use it to further their omgh4x crusades that things start stinking and characters get deleted. Serves noone.
Quote:

- Why did they chose BoB, why not any other alliance?

Silly question, we are the most advanced of the bunch. If they want to see what the BoB formula is that gets half the game in seizures for all kinds of reasons then you go and check it out. On the other hand, who says this was the only alliance ?
Quote:

To me it seems like there were more devs in BoB than in any other alliance? Is this a wrong assumption?

Yes. CCP has over 200 employees now, 5 wre in BoB and 195 are still in d2. Noone knows, people just yell stupid stuff because they feel something unfair must be happening if they're not winning.
Quote:

- Did BoB gain anything from this except good friends?

No, and I doubt the friendships extend to improper use of authority if that's what epople would read into that.
Quote:

- Does BoB understand that their sarcasm works against them when they state that they do have buttons for node crashing, cheating and have devs in their alliance?

I doubt we care. People that cannot see the obvious sarcasm in those statements are rather dimwitted. If they believe them and as a consequence stop playing eve then you won;t see us cry about it.
Quote:

Everything would've been so much easier if devs was not allowed to play against paying customers.

You can't play Eve with someone yet notagainst someone else. Yes it would be easier, it would mimo also be disastrous and rather unfair on the devs who you have to thank for being here in the first place. Easy is not always good, in this case, being smart and not signing into witchhunts is good, and smart as well since it saves you from killing your own braincells in frustration.

Eve sees alot of devsploitha4xfavouritsm idiocy yes. That's what comes with a competitive ffa pvp game with serious loss built in and one big server with umpteen thousand players. That's because people get emotional about their gameplay, and because some of them aren't able to keep that in check. It's quite normal for games like this to see this, and it's equally normal for there being no truth to any of it bar some very rare cases mostly involving gm's or voluneers, but hardly ever developers.

And yes I'm in BoB. But this post would have looked exactly the same if I'd been in D2 or whatever.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by qrac

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim

It was shown that dbps char was NOT transfered for cash, even if you wish to believe that.

You can't prove that but dbp can't be banned either because the so called proof could've been tampered with.

To CCP: I hope you create a new policy where browsing non-CCP sites connected to the game using CCP's connection is NOT allowed.
-------------------------------------------

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Niaski Zalani

Actually I host a paying customer. My work is quite separate from my in-game associations, but think what you will :D

Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

Alledged hacker != criminal.

yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyticus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:03:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Lyticus
my post

What about no, he's a known hacker, and you're defending him? Go you! Why are you even trying to compare real life illegal actions with legit in-game mechanics?

I ask you and other EVE players, since when does CCP have the right to enforce real-life laws?

If I contact the CEO of a corporation over MSN and convince him to give me a billion isk, is that not a real-life action?

If you have a problem with someone breaking into your forums, you need to either improve your security or involve the law. CCP should not be dealing with out of game matters via the game. Kugutsumen having his accounts banned does not un-hack your forums, nor does it solve the problem. While I do not condone the method in which he obtains his information, the fact is that CCP dont have any TOS based upon out of game actions.

This means they have no right to ban a character because of what he does out of game. What if next they start banning players from rival games companies? Or perhaps racial judgement?

Bans should be administered based upon in-game action and that alone, out of game information which CCP have no way of verifying via logs etc that cannot be substantiated should be voided as evidence.

- Lyticus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Captain Thunk

You've been caught red-handed with information that has been verified regardless of how "highlevel gaming" it was obtained.

You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.
You're well aware that characters are traded by your directors for cash.
You know that your members engage in the same activities as kugutsumen but lack the balls to go public.

This is hardly baseless accusations.

What you've done with your highlevel gaming is forced everyone to use the same methods in order to compete on a level playing field, which means there's a lot of EULA's that are going to be torn up and ignored on the proviso that all such activities and transactions are conducted out of game and don't leave an ingame trail - you've afterall proven that it's easy to get away with it.

Nice one mate.

CAPTAIN THUNK

Maybe you should question the information you got since all the "proof" you name here is either a) collected via illegal means b) presented by a banned (hence himself eula/TOS violating) character and c) simply wrong.

It was shown that dbps char was NOT transfered for cash, even if you wish to believe that.
It was shown that a guy in bob macromined and WAS banned for it by ccp. However the ban was only temporary and after it exspiered he came to terms and was let back in.
It is widely known that BoB members will use ingame mechanics and social engineering to their advantage in a game. Mr.K however used illegal out-of-game methods. One is playing a spy character the other is brute forcing his way into ppls webservers.

In short all of the above might have at one point or the other a grain of truth in it however you twist the situations accordingly to suit your anti bob bull.

Im glad the hacker got banned and to the snigg guy, i would be very carefull about threatening ppl with illegal means such as dos attacks or your inet kungfu. Im not a fan of this stuff in any way or form, whoever does it but ure clearly not helping the situation by a new wave of baseless accusations.

If you got solid proof of some BoB member commiting illegal stuff on the net contact his ceo instead of doing another twist of hatemongering.

Cheers for the BoB spin bud, but I don't think it'll be working this time.

I wasn't referring to the BoB guy who got banned for the 0isk macro (which I believe requires python injection code, if CCP think that's only worth 2 weeks thats up to them) - he was never kicked from the corp though, he just waited out the ban - no need to "let him back in" as he never actually left. I was actually referring to the 10/10 complex BoB rent to macroers for a large slice of ISK.

As I said, in order to compete on the same level with BoB those that continue to pay their subscription will certainly consider ignoring their EULA as so long as nothing written ingame leaves a trail you will get off scot free, plead ignorance or claim it's a massive conspiracy because people are jealous.

Like it or not, BoBs killing Eve - apathy won't save it.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Originally by: Sinlare
Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

Ever heard of xs4all.nl? Same philosophy.

The philosophy of both entities doesn't even come close.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dragutinovic

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Xendie

i wonder why they had bob investigating bob/dev stuff?

think about it for a sec, 5 devs in RKK alone, how many more in the rest of bob?
wouldnt it be kinda hard for 2-3 devs to fire the rest of the office?

one thing though, when will molle be banned for putting a persons RL name/adress/workplace on these forums?

when will digitalcommunist be banned for trying to get peoples ip adresses ingame?
when will db preacher be banned for ebaying101
when will bob alliance be disbanded for using information they knew werent allowed?(the leadership were effectively exploiting when they knew that these persons were devs and still accepted advance information)

will CCP ever do anything against bob?
answer is, never as they would ban themselves then.

Indeed , as in the past as now they seem to get away with everything , whiel some others get insta banned from forums by just posting a bit to much of [insert stuff].

The griefing of a player out of the game wasnt even punished , teh abuse of RL intel wasnt punished ...

GG hypocrites & CCP .
_____________

Im back !

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Did you mean to quote and reply to this post with your Sinlare alt, but selected the wrong dropdown option?

No, I meant to fix the spelling, but it all went very strange.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:57:00 +0000
.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned.

Good riddance.

There is solid evidence he broke the law, and that no legal enforcement agencies would pursue him as he did not do enough financial damage by his actions.

He did not provide any solid evidence for anything, but instead raised the paranoid side of the community to their feet by providing them with dressed-up tidbits.

If any developer lost his 3-year old account over his posts and blogs only because they were outed as developers, he was banned too late.

.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Casper Ozymandias

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:57:00 +0000
So how many pages do you think this thread would be up to without the hard work of those diligent mods? Keep up the good work guys, I'm sure if you delete enough posts you're going to eventually make sure an unbiased view is provided.

Sup Cortes _____________________

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly.

Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case?

Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently?

Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval.

So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave?
Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself?
Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban?

The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning?

My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion.

In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP?

Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks.

- Lyticus

Dont forget that ccp only condones "illegal behaviour" within the gamerules. Ccp, similar to any other mmporg gaming company, wasnt too happy about someone going around hacking their client / customer / fansites. They might have not been their possession, however they belong to the community.

Imagine a group of bullies showing up at the next fanfest beating up all invited evegamers. Now imagine further them escaping legal punishment for similar reasons as in this case. Bullying / beating up ppl ingame is very much encouraged by the devs. Irl it is a crime.
Im sure in such a case ccp also would terminate the service because they dont want THEIR community (since its their game and without a game no community) to get the negative image and to suffer from ppl who apparently cant be grabbed by the balls through legal means.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Avon
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

Hacker: A character who I think is a dev gave BoB some T2 BPO's.
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, obviously the Dev cheated to create the BPO's, or coded the lottery in shuch a way that he would win. Stands to reason. I mean, we all know that the lottery is unfair because *I* have never had a BPO, so it is obvious the Devs cheat.

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and nothing unfair happened. The Dev in question legitimately aquired the BPO's on his player account."
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, you would say that. It is a cover-up. We know that it was all cheating and h4x. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!!

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and a Dev was a naughty boy."
Witch Hunters: Ah-ha! We knew it. BoB can't be trusted. The CCP can't be trusted. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Devs are losing player characters because they got IP matched on a third party website.
CCP are losing reputation because people want to believe a conspiracy.
The playerbase becomes increasingly paranoid.

The whole community is going to hell, and for what?

If you believe all this stuff, fine.
I know nothing I say will change that.
Just leave.

This whole thing has saddened me to be honest.
Not the accusations, they are nothing unusual; but the community reaction to them.

This whole episode tarnishes the image of CCP, of BoB (not that we didn't have a bad image anyway), but mostly of the community.

Sad times.

Did you mean to quote and reply to this post with your Sinlare alt, but selected the wrong dropdown option?

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kerdrak

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:56:00 +0000
Sorry to say but I don't like to see CCP plays in tranquility...
________________________________________
First atheist amarr on EVE

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:56:00 +0000

Originally by: Avon
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB witches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

Hacker: A character who I think is a dev gave BoB some T2 BPO's.
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, obviously the Dev cheated to create the BPO's, or coded the lottery in shuch a way that he would win. Stands to reason. I mean, we all know that the lottery is unfair because *I* have never had a BPO, so it is obvious the Devs cheat.

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and nothing unfair happened. The Dev in question legitimately aquired the BPO's on his player account."
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, you would say that. It is a cover-up. We know that it was all cheating and h4x. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!!

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and a Dev was a naughty boy."
Witch Hunters: Ah-ha! We knew it. BoB can't be trusted. The CCP can't be trusted. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Devs are losing player characters because they got IP matched on a third party website.
CCP are losing reputation because people want to believe a conspiracy.
The playerbase becomes increasingly paranoid.

The whole community is going to hell, and for what?

If you believe all this stuff, fine.
I know nothing I say will change that.
Just leave.

This whole thing has saddened me to be honest.
Not the accusations, they are nothing unusual; but the community reaction to them.

This whole episode tarnishes the image of CCP, of BoB (not that we didn't have a bad image anyway), but mostly of the community.

Sad times.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Avon

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:55:00 +0000
This thread is a fine example of what is wrong with mob mentality.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, or how they are phrased, people will believe what they want to believe.

CCP: "CCP have players in many alliances"
Witch Hunters: Yeah, but we are only interested in BoB withches. Clearly a Dev in BoB must be corrupt. It is obvious.

Hacker: A character who I think is a dev have BoB some T2 BPO's.
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, obviously the Dev cheated to create the BPO's, or coded the lottery in shuch a way that he would win. Stands to reason. I mean, we all know that the lottery is unfair because *I* have never had a BPO, so it is obvious the Devs cheat.

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and nothing unfair happened. The Dev in question legitimately aquired the BPO's on his player account."
Witch Hunters: Yeah, well, you would say that. It is a cover-up. We know that it was all cheating and h4x. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!!

Hypothetical CCP announcement: "We looked in to the BPO thingy, and a Dev was a naughty boy."
Witch Hunters: Ah-ha! We knew it. BoB can't be trusted. The CCP can't be trusted. Ban BoB, fire the Devs, turn the servers off!

Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Devs are losing player characters because they got IP matched on a third party website.
CCP are losing reputation because people want to believe a conspiracy.
The playerbase becomes increasingly paranoid.

The whole community is going to hell, and for what?

If you believe all this stuff, fine.
I know nothing I say will change that.
Just leave.

This whole thing has saddened me to be honest.
Not the accusations, they are nothing unusual; but the community reaction to them.

This whole episode tarnishes the image of CCP, of BoB (not that we didn't have a bad image anyway), but mostly of the community.

Sad times.

The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:55:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

Ever heard of xs4all.nl? Same philosophy.

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani

Actually I host a paying customer. My work is quite separate from my in-game associations, but think what you will :D

Good to know that even in real life you support criminals.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:54:00 +0000

Originally by: Sun Ra
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: SirMolle

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

Erm so its bad for peopel to DDoS your site but its ok for your mate to go aroudn hacking peoples forums?

Yes. A DDoS against Kugutsumen's site will not only take out that site, but another 300 along with it. As well as e-mail, and streaming media services. Kugutsumen's alledged hacking seems to only target a single site, and seems to never disable any sites.

*shrug*
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:09:40
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:07:09
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: SirMolle

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

So, sni.ggerdly hosts a hacker huh? good to know It does explain why shamis responds the way he does. interesting.

Actually I host a paying customer. My work is quite separate from my in-game associations, but think what you will :D
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Lyticus
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly.

Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case?

Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently?

Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval.

So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave?
Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself?
Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban?

The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning?

My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion.

In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP?

Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks.

- Lyticus

What about no, he's a known hacker, and you're defending him? Go you! Why are you even trying to compare real life illegal actions with legit in-game mechanics?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kcel Chim

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:50:00 +0000

Originally by: Captain Thunk

You've been caught red-handed with information that has been verified regardless of how "highlevel gaming" it was obtained.

You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.
You're well aware that characters are traded by your directors for cash.
You know that your members engage in the same activities as kugutsumen but lack the balls to go public.

This is hardly baseless accusations.

What you've done with your highlevel gaming is forced everyone to use the same methods in order to compete on a level playing field, which means there's a lot of EULA's that are going to be torn up and ignored on the proviso that all such activities and transactions are conducted out of game and don't leave an ingame trail - you've afterall proven that it's easy to get away with it.

Nice one mate.

CAPTAIN THUNK

Maybe you should question the information you got since all the "proof" you name here is either a) collected via illegal means b) presented by a banned (hence himself eula/TOS violating) character and c) simply wrong.

It was shown that dbps char was NOT transfered for cash, even if you wish to believe that.
It was shown that a guy in bob macromined and WAS banned for it by ccp. However the ban was only temporary and after it exspiered he came to terms and was let back in.
It is widely known that BoB members will use ingame mechanics and social engineering to their advantage in a game. Mr.K however used illegal out-of-game methods. One is playing a spy character the other is brute forcing his way into ppls webservers.

In short all of the above might have at one point or the other a grain of truth in it however you twist the situations accordingly to suit your anti bob bull.

Im glad the hacker got banned and to the snigg guy, i would be very carefull about threatening ppl with illegal means such as dos attacks or your inet kungfu. Im not a fan of this stuff in any way or form, whoever does it but ure clearly not helping the situation by a new wave of baseless accusations.

If you got solid proof of some BoB member commiting illegal stuff on the net contact his ceo instead of doing another twist of hatemongering.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:49:00 +0000
kieron:
on a sidenote i'm curious why the names of said characters need to stay top-secret ?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ilidanis

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:48:00 +0000

Originally by: Ab Initio

If you actually knew what you were talking about, and weren't just running around with a pitchfork, you would realise why that doesn't make any sense.

I think what they were trying to say might have been obfuscated by eagerness and inexperience. Allow me to make me a humble effort to salvage her post.

I believe what she was trying to 'one-up' SirMolle and claim that the removal of the dev characters that were outed as being members of BoB was a sure-sign of mischief, etc.
Of course, you and I both know that's not true. The characters in question were removed because as we all know, while it is not illegal for a dev to play with the rest of us, he should keep his affiliation with CCP a secret. I guess she probably wasn't aware of that, go figure.

However, what I'd like to know is, since the information Kugutsumen provided claiming that certain characters in BoB were actually CCP employees (devs or not, it's not relevant) proved to be spot-on, how do you feel about his other claims and inferences, Ab? Allow me to re-state them for you, in case you forgot them or were not aware of them:

1) Certain BoB members in high-ranking positions were actively promoting the sharing of dread-capable pilot accounts, and the person in charge of this group was reportedly a CCP employee, which was eventually forced out prior to this particular incident. Note that account sharing is a violation of the EULA, yet nothing reportedly happened to these players.

2) The same character that was in charge of the cynonet left 8 or 10 T2 BPOs with BoB upon his departure. While some dispute that these BPOs are not very valuable, any T2 BPO has an intrinsic value due to its rarity (it's a veritable isk printer). What are the chances of a single character played by a CCP staff member obtaining 8 or 10 T2 BPOs legitimaly, uhm?

3) And lastly (but possibly not least), the allegations that DB Preacher purchased at least one player account for cold, hard, real-life cash, which is a bannable offense. Last I checked, nothing happened to him, though.

So, do you have any comments or wagers on how much of the above statements are partially or entirely true? Do you understand that as of right now, regardless of the valiant efforts by the BoB Forum Interceptor Squadron, you guys are looking pretty weak when it comes to honesty, and CCP is definitely trying to bring this embarrassing situation to a swift and silent demise?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Lyticus

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:48:00 +0000
Edited by: Lyticus on 07/02/2007 09:44:59
I dont frequent the EVE-O message boards very often, usually because the standard of intelligent conversation is generally quite low. However, this situation calls for my comment and input since it affects me directly.

Kugutsumen was a friend of mine, and he's now had all his accounts banned. I understand that CCP reserves the right to do this under their TOS agreements. However, if EVE is truly the open-ended sandbox the developers claim it is, where you can scam, lie and cheat your way to the top, and as many do, then why has Kugutsumen been singled out in this case?

Did CCP need a scapegoat to blame this event on? Why not blame this fellow? He has ties to all the right corporations, he's been known for causing a bit of a forum uproar in the past, the perfect one to take the fall. Lets ignore the fact that it was in fact the developers fault for distributing sensitive information to their corpmates in the first place. If one of the BOB members who was in the know had leaked the information, would this situation have been treated differently?

Subversion and corp theft are commonplace in EVE, it makes sense that someone would create an intelligence based website where those who pay can obtain this kind of information from those who specialise in its retrieval.

So, I ask CCP, is this the beginning of a new wave?
Should I remove my alts from corporations which are there only to benefit myself?
Should my IPO scam be cancelled lest I risk a ban?

The other day, my alt was scammed by a new player for 5 million isk. I knew he was scamming me at the time, but it was an interesting experience and I taught him a few things on how to improve his tactics. In hindsight, should I have petitioned him? Will you give me my isk back, and give him a warning?

My viewpoint may of course be skewed since I know the person involved here, and all my facts may not be correct as I am not the forum warrior I once was, however, I hope that my points will be considered in the discussion.

In conclusion, is this turning into another World of Warcraft, CCP?

Make sure you let us know, so I can hang up my space boots in advance, I won't be coming along for that ride, thanks.

- Lyticus

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ashail

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:47:00 +0000

Originally by: Eelifea
Originally by: Casper Ozymandias
Quote this if you hate censorship.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Raphael Scoria

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:47:00 +0000
It's a shame: I was really enjoying Eve. But now that I see that the bias allegations were founded in truth, and that nothing is to be done, I'll make the only, small gesture I can in order to display my opinion: this and my other account are cancelled, and I'm giong to find a less fun but less corrupted game to play.

Oh, and I have never been in BoB nor in a corp that has ever been in conflict with BoB: I don't care about the corp involved in this cheating and cover-up. I just care that it has happened.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Casper Ozymandias

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:46:00 +0000
Quote this if you hate censorship.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Eelifea

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Casper Ozymandias
Quote this if you hate censorship.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyrus Ildemar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:46:00 +0000
Edited by: Cyrus Ildemar on 07/02/2007 09:43:14
Originally by: Eelifea
Originally by: Casper Ozymandias
Quote this if you hate censorship.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Stahlregen

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:36:00 +0000
Hey CCP, Why don't you just delete this thread seeing as your obviously going mad trimming it like a freaking bonsai tree.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Logan Feynman

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:35:00 +0000

Originally by: Platinum Sapphire
Originally by: SirMolle
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

Well gee, maybe the admission that some developers have had their characters deleted because they were publiclly known might be the proof you're looking for. After all, CCP's own rules state that dev character's are to be anonymous, not publiclly known. Since they have been removed from the game, then obviously there must have been some wrongdoing there for the names to have been able to be found publiclly. After all, even if your forums were hacked, the information was found out that these people were devs. This is information that should not have been known by ANYONE outside of CCP... even among a small group of "trusted people/friends". The rules are absolute.. they don't apply only now and then.

You're the leader of the Alliance in question... How about YOU confirm or deny if any of the removed characters held high level positions within BoB, and whether you or any of your directors were aware that they were CCP staff?

The second bolded part makes absolutely no sense at all. The first one does, though. There was no "evidence" in any of Kugutsumen's blogs, only conjectures and vague innuendos.

As far as BPOs are concerned, there was a limited amount of t2 BPOs seeded, with the exact number precisely known. It is impossible to "spawn" additional ones without gathering attention. There was no proof the BPOs were spawned. The only thing proven from the Kugutsumen's blogs is that there were devs in BoB. They are there no more, whether they deserve it, or not.

To any and all of you that feel that CCP has wronged you in any way, please feel free to vote with your wallet and leave this game. Perhaps that would make CCP rethink their handling of the situation. Perhaps. But it certainly will make me a happy puppy. So happy that someone else can have your stuff, as far as I'm concerned.
.

"Life is no way to treat an animal."
Tombstone of Kilgore Trout

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ashail

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:34:00 +0000
Guys, I think we can turn our focus away from BoB.
Their reputation is so ridiculously soiled now anything and everything that comes from one of their members is just laughable.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Wizzkidy

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:34:00 +0000
I think it's absolutly terrible that this even needed to happen and I lose faith in CCP being able to make a fair game tbh.

If this thing did happen which they could well of then I am desgusted with CCP.

I do not care what "logging" they put on any of the Dev player char's it should not happen full stop.

If this means dev player char's cannot go into big alliances then so be it I don't mind them playing the game but as for joining alliances that can be abused is a no go

This really does hurt my playing of EVE-Online and tbh with this allagations I cannot help thinking that it might make me think twice about logging on and playing as much.

Also Kieron you say "Our goal is to provide the best possible game" but tbh what you have stated about you not able to find any evidence then how are you providing the best possible game?

I call BS tbh. I said 7 months ago that there where things not right about the way bob played the game and how things "happened" while they came to take over certain space yet people laughed and said it could never happen, yet now we see a HUGE investigation and STILL you cannot confirm or deny the fact that something happened. I am absolutly desgusted with the way this has happened.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Cyrus Ildemar

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:33:00 +0000
I hope the people who outright delete this post immediately along with all the others feels really, really good about what they're doing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Ab Initio

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:32:00 +0000
Edited by: Ab Initio on 07/02/2007 09:31:10

Originally by: Platinum Sapphire
Well gee, maybe the admission that some developers have had their characters deleted because they were publiclly known might be the proof you're looking for. After all, CCP's own rules state that dev character's are to be anonymous, not publiclly known. Since they have been removed from the game, then obviously there must have been some wrongdoing there for the names to have been able to be found publiclly. After all, even if your forums were hacked, the information was found out that these people were devs. This is information that should not have been known by ANYONE outside of CCP... even among a small group of "trusted people/friends". The rules are absolute.. they don't apply only now and then.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, and weren't just running around with a pitchfork, you would realise why that doesn't make any sense.

Originally by: Captain Thunk
You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you knew what you were talking about, you would have already seen the replies noting that Bob petitioned the group, and they were not found to be macroers or anything else (see the posts in other threads).

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Casper Ozymandias

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:32:00 +0000
This post has been swept under the rug 3 times already.

Am I the only one who has noticed posts speaking out against CCPs corruption in this thread being outright deleted?

This whole investigation was a joke, Not only was there no real answer for a well deserved question, but the real question itself was entirely ignored and substituted with one no one really cared about.

What did you actually expect would happen after making this announcement? That everyone would be happy and content. Please don't tell me that you are that naive- Well, Considering that you permit devs to take part of the 0.0 game i wouldn't be surprised if you were.

Also, It's hilarious that you are more concerned about everyone picking on BoB (Gee i wonder why?!) rather than trying appease your paying customers.

Blatant favouritism, if there weren't enough evidence already.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:30:00 +0000

Originally by: SirMolle
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

As for the rest of you lot,

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us. The tinfoil hattery is amazing, i know that you would love for us all to be framed for some conspiracy. Since we are all still here, all the accusations are totally baseless.

There will be devs in every alliance in the game, and i for one, do not wanna know who is a dev or not, i want them to be in the middle of everything, from lowlevel gaming, to highlevel gaming, so that they see the issues we all face, from day to day.

Face it, you love the drama and the conspiracy theories, and thats all there is, drama and conspiracy theories.

You've been caught red-handed with information that has been verified regardless of how "highlevel gaming" it was obtained.

You accept the profits of macro operations with full knowledge.
You're well aware that characters are traded by your directors for cash.
You know that your members engage in the same activities as kugutsumen but lack the balls to go public.

This is hardly baseless accusations.

What you've done with your highlevel gaming is forced everyone to use the same methods in order to compete on a level playing field, which means there's a lot of EULA's that are going to be torn up and ignored on the proviso that all such activities and transactions are conducted out of game and don't leave an ingame trail - you've afterall proven that it's easy to get away with it.

Nice one mate.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Platinum Sapphire

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:26:00 +0000

Originally by: SirMolle
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

Well gee, maybe the admission that some developers have had their characters deleted because they were publiclly known might be the proof you're looking for. After all, CCP's own rules state that dev character's are to be anonymous, not publiclly known. Since they have been removed from the game, then obviously there must have been some wrongdoing there for the names to have been able to be found publiclly. After all, even if your forums were hacked, the information was found out that these people were devs. This is information that should not have been known by ANYONE outside of CCP... even among a small group of "trusted people/friends". The rules are absolute.. they don't apply only now and then.

You're the leader of the Alliance in question... How about YOU confirm or deny if any of the removed characters held high level positions within BoB, and whether you or any of your directors were aware that they were CCP staff?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sun Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:19:00 +0000

Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: SirMolle

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

Erm so its bad for peopel to DDoS your site but its ok for your mate to go aroudn hacking peoples forums?

Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:12:00 +0000

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
I can see CCP are stuck somewhere between a rock and a hard place on the issue. I'd highly doubt it possible to 'fire' or substantially 'discipline' an employee based on the claims of a hacker. A court would not accept it on the grounds that if it was 'dishonestly' obtained info, then its *legally* dishonest info, and if said employee appealed to a court on unfair dismissal, he'd win hands down.

I am admittedly unfamiliar with Icelandic law but that is absolutely not true where I live.

Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by James Potkukelkka

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:10:00 +0000
Somehow a certain South Park episode comes into my mind. "We must find a way to stop the reports about priests"

--
Always trust the devs

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Brute Helmet

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:10:00 +0000
The problem remains that we have no idea what really happened and BoB and CCP will be living with this smear, deserved or not, as long as you dont come clean with what happened.

The problem with CCP devs playing the game is that if they are known as such to their alliance/corp there is a big risk that information about upcoming changes or "hidden" game mechanics leaks to their friends. Whether such a leak is intentional or not doesnt matter.

_____________________________

Support the MGRL - uncover your six

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:10:00 +0000
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:09:40
Edited by: Sinlare on 07/02/2007 09:07:09
Originally by: Niaski Zalani
Originally by: SirMolle

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)

So, sni.ggerdly hosts a hacker huh? good to know It does explain why shamis responds the way he does. interesting.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sephiraa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Anila's Delight
You cant trust a hacker, and how can you verify what he said is the truth and not just a part of a smear campaign.

If it was all simply fiction, and just a part of a smear campaign, then no actual CCP characters names would have been revealed, and Kieron wouldn't have posted this:

Quote:
these accusations were recently brought forward when a player revealed the identity of numerous CCP employee characters. Since these play characters are known to belong to CCP employees, they will be removed from the game.

How would anyone have known those numerous characters were CCP employee characters? It seems to me, if that part of the accusations is true, then Occam's Razor strongly suggests the other claims made in the accusations are equally true.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:07:00 +0000

Originally by: SirMolle

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us.

Does that "high level" also include some of your membership threatening to DDoS the kugutsumen.com site? Because someone did threaten with it, and there have been a few attempts at it so far.

Could've been anyone really, so consider this one public notice; a) it won't work, b) if it works, it won't work for long, c) it'll have to involve law enforcement at some point, although that's not something I'd like to do, or d) I'll just handle it myself in which case the results won't be pretty.

(No, I'm not Kugutsumen, I'm just the guy that hosts his site. Guess I'll get ready for the thwack upside the head with the banstick now...)
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Jane Spondogolo

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:07:00 +0000
I can see CCP are stuck somewhere between a rock and a hard place on the issue. I'd highly doubt it possible to 'fire' or substantially 'discipline' an employee based on the claims of a hacker. A court would not accept it on the grounds that if it was 'dishonestly' obtained info, then its *legally* dishonest info, and if said employee appealed to a court on unfair dismissal, he'd win hands down.

HOWEVER.

There seems little evidence to suggest that the evidence is actually incorrect. Off the cuff remarks by certain higher level BOB players, and GM's indicate that at least a 'balance of odds' reading of the evidence favors its accuracy.

It seems fair to suggest that the average Bobbit is entirely innocent of the charges laid out by the community. For op-sec reasons most rank and file alliance members DONT get told full storys. This holds true for any smart alliance, particularly in a game that values cloak and daggery as an integral part of its role play and game play. So folks probably ought hold back on that.

And likewise the other allegations that other alliances have directly encouraged or sponsored the hacker to do his thing are equally unfair.

I'll also add finally that its almost certain the vast majority of CCP devs , volenteers and agents should be assumed to be beyond reproach regarding ethics.

So where does this leave us?

First off the allegations are serious ones. Thousands of eve players have invested thousands of hours and hundreds of RL dollars into playing this game based on the presumption that the advertised rules of the universe will favor and punish all equally, particularly in the case of the (frankly broken) T2 bpo system.

A lucky strike on the lottery will earn a player vast wealth (Think hulk bpos for example) and influence in the broad meta-game of eve politics.

So when the allegation that a team, already favored by strategic success and being held to be the #1 hegemon in the game, is being directly aided against other players in the T2 game, its something that must be taken seriously.

Perhaps its too late. Perhaps removing the BPOs will unfairly punish too many players who already believe that such fortune was obtained fairly.

Perhaps its not even true.

But the community *DOES* have a right to know if this is happened. Obviously CCP can not reveal names, its honor bound to its EULA and probably workplace agreements, that this it wont. But a simple nod of "yes it appears something is awry with the bpos and we will negotiate a withdrawal of these assets", or even a "the system is automated, and the number in the game precisely matches the number seeded into the automatic system, thus no corruption has occured" would suffice.

Then from there we'd like to hear of a policy. Perhaps the policy should be put to the community. Its a clever bunch in here, and Im sure something could be concocted that would allow CCP the rights to what it wants from its assets, whilst allowing its customers to know it can get what it pays for.

I'd make some opening suggestions: First off I keep hearing that "devs should remain covert about being in alliances". Nonsense. This doesnt protect the game from corruption, only from corruption being detected. I'd suggest devs actually DONT belong in big alliances at all. Perhaps CCP could look into instituting something like "Concord special police" or something like a real player branch of the factions that can be interacted with (for instance if a empire person is being suicide attacked he can call "the cops" or something). Or maybe something else. Maybe serpentis needs some pilots that cant be beaten by just going "look at the drones! now you are hypnotised!". Imagination is key here.

I'd also like to suggest that perhaps in game governance be made a little more transparent. Justice shouldnt just be done, it needs to be seen to be done.

And finally Un-nerf ECM This is most important.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:06:00 +0000

Originally by: Kai Gaivuuri
T
Being open and telling what happened, why it happened and what are we gonna do in the future would help a lot. At the moment I can't believe what I am seeing. This is meant to be a game that is handled in a professional way. What the heck am I paying for? I pay for the devs so that they can develop the game and at the same time force me to bend over... thank you.

Being honest and straightforward would help the company the most. Otherwise people will whine, whine and continue to whine. Answering to every question is impossible but doing the best thing possible is a lot better than trying to ban those who ask for answers and want the honesty. Treat the players and especially yourselves by the rules.

I really thought I would never see this in a MMORPG that I pay for.

You know why you're seeing it? Not because the MMORPG or it's developers made it so. It probably never even happened at all.
It's because of the rotten part of the community that make it so. Look at yourself first before blaming someone else. The players are ruining the game, not the devs.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anila's Delight

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Steve Nash
Originally by: Anila's Delight
I am inclined to agree with the BoB forum professionals (gah!) on this one, bob have been branded as guilty before any eveidence has been presented to the comunity (which i dont think it will), because these kinds of allegations have been flying around for a while now.

Everyone who has posted anti-bob and bob=dev in this thread are taking the word of a known hacker (by his own admission) without proof to the contrary. Sounds like slandering a superier PvP force to me.

Sore loosers anyone?

I don't think you can point a finger at the community here. The fact is that the statement delivered by CCP has served to cast more suspicion on themselves and BoB. I'm not a BoB hater, but somethin dont smell right.

I am not pointing at the comunity as a whole, just those who belived the word of a self admitted hacker (who's data can not be verified by anyone non-ccp) without waiting for proof. I think that it is wrong to belive someone is guilty untill proven innocent. You cant trust a hacker, and how can you verify what he said is the truth and not just a part of a smear campaign.

I have seen in a bob=dev sig "quis custodiet ipsos custodies" i ask, who will guard the guards against a comminity who is intent on drawing blood from ccp in this witch hunt

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kai Gaivuuri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:55:00 +0000
There is no excuse to to this mess...

How is it possible that the ones involved in the actual development of the game play?

How it is even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that those devs playing would have revealed their real command level.

It is inexcusable and impossible to control. There are always ways to get around even the heaviest control. I have been a MMORPG GM myself and I know how goddamn easy it is to cheat even when every item, every change you make is logged. I have busted those cheaters myself and where I was the things were always informed to the community. A MMORPG shouldn't be a totalitarian system where the guys running the show are quiet and don't act by the book themselves

What kind of example do you want to set? If cheating happens even among the staff what authority do you have on anyone? It is the most hypocritical thing ever.

Being open and telling what happened, why it happened and what are we gonna do in the future would help a lot. At the moment I can't believe what I am seeing. This is meant to be a game that is handled in a professional way. What the heck am I paying for? I pay for the devs so that they can develop the game and at the same time force me to bend over... thank you.

Being honest and straightforward would help the company the most. Otherwise people will whine, whine and continue to whine. Answering to every question is impossible but doing the best thing possible is a lot better than trying to ban those who ask for answers and want the honesty. Treat the players and especially yourselves by the rules.

I really thought I would never see this in a MMORPG that I pay for.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by SirMolle

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:53:00 +0000
Kieron,

Since people fail to have reading comprehension 101, could you please state, if ANY wrongdoings at all were found?

As for the rest of you lot,

We play the game on a high level, we have a high profile, this isnt the first accusations of cheat, hax, and god knows what else that has been flung at us. The tinfoil hattery is amazing, i know that you would love for us all to be framed for some conspiracy. Since we are all still here, all the accusations are totally baseless.

There will be devs in every alliance in the game, and i for one, do not wanna know who is a dev or not, i want them to be in the middle of everything, from lowlevel gaming, to highlevel gaming, so that they see the issues we all face, from day to day.

Face it, you love the drama and the conspiracy theories, and thats all there is, drama and conspiracy theories.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by FireFoxx80

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:52:00 +0000
Just to reinforce the above constructive arguments really.

I think for CCP's sake and the comminuty's sake, a full breakdown of what has happened and what step have been taken, needs to be made public.

It sounds like a substantial portion of the accusations you have, either proved correct, or have been completely unable to detect; which is pretty worrying.

It's good to say that CCP employees have had their characters removed, but what about secondary effects on the players of the information/equipment that has been passed on?

Can we please have more information about what has happened?

What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sun Ra

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Milano II
The T2 BPOs? We all know one famous alliance has almost all of them, mostly dev-created/hax0red/handed-out or whatever- because afterall... they're not the carebears they try to come across as.... they dont do agent missions that often to get these things from the faulty lottery system that has been set up anyway.

LOL even ive had 3 t2 bpo and had a further 3 i turnt down and im no 'carebear' and theres plnety in BoB

Your hate for Bob is the only 'proof' you have, you ever considered he bought some of those via auctions? alot of those ammo bpo hardly sell for much

If your friend kugutswhatever wants to rid of bob why hasnt he posted anything really useful like a post of bob members telling other bout the haxs they used to shoot you behind the pos bubble??

dont let your hate for BoB f**k over ccp

Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Rod Blaine

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:50:00 +0000
I'm as disgusted by this post by Kieron as any of you, and actually for the same reason as many of you.

I'd like to see CCP give us the infomration they can find out about any and all accusations against us and them item by item.

Quite dissapoitning to see Kieron unable to communicate clearly again.

As for the witchhunt, well, i've made my pov known.

Old blog
Originally by: Vriezuh
Naz: John is a realist

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sephiraa

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:48:00 +0000
Edited by: Sephiraa on 07/02/2007 08:48:30
Originally by: IntegralHellsing
Edited by: IntegralHellsing on 07/02/2007 08:20:46
Deletion of char is a bit upsetting even to me.
poor devs, have to delete their beloved chars.

Quote:
Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

I am sure CCP has all the logs from the event, and also have the ability evaluate whether the info was leaked before the event or not. Don't say that CCP doesn't even keep the files/logs of how the planning went everyday, and how the event was executed.

According to what Oveur posted, they seem to have logs dating back to each character's creation. If that is true, and I believe Oveur, then something is clearly not right in all of this, and the explanation we have been given rings very hollow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oveur
Regarding the investigation, there will be a conclusion to it published, but it's going to be done when there is a conclusion, not before. This investigation, like others, isn't going to be rushed. And yes, it does take days. We are effectively re-auditing all the player accounts, all the time the account has been played, since he started. But more on that later. As pointed out, the process is sometimes as important as the conclusion.

This is what gets me though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieron
As for diffusing the situation by mentioning this at the start of the thread, unfortunately, it wouldn't have. There are too many people who are willing to believe any tale where there are allegations of people abusing positions of authority. A few pages back, I made a post mentioning the wide range of play styles and organizations the Devs participate in, including the presence of Devs in alliances other than BoB. That has done little to stop the anti-BoB sentiments running rampant in the thread.

Personally, I'm still wondering why CCP seems more concerned about what the community thinks of BoB, instead of the actual reasons behind such sentiments. The very fact that the people out as CCP employees have had their characters removed lends a significant amount of credibility to the other claims that accompanied those names being revealed.

This response effectively verified the community concerns by letting us know that the names revealed were in fact CCP employees. If those names were not made up, and were not in fact part of a fictional smear campaign, then it seems all too likely that the rest of the claims made are equally true.

This looks very, very bad.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Niaski Zalani

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:46:00 +0000
What I find interesting is that Kugutsumen got hit with the ultra-banstick-of-doom, whilst people that are guilty of the same sort of actions are still merrily in-game, including someone who posted Kugutsumen's personal information on these forums.

Smells slightly double-standard like if you ask me.
yarr.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by mazzilliu

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:46:00 +0000
I tried posting something and it got deleted like 10 seconds after. theyre deleting whole posts to even hide the appearance of censorship.

chribba needs to make his eve search spider index threads like this more often. it seems all the interesting and logical questions/posts have been deleted or censored. i really can't stand it tbh.

seriously, ccp should just own up that something went wrong and they ought to fix it. you did it in the past, and reading old devblogs where devs admitted mistakes and such really attracted me to this game, and i kind of respected that. but theyre censoring everything right now, banning kugutsumen and refusing to even consider that there might be something wrong, as if the mostly unenforced consequences are enough. i'm not a rash person and threaten to quit, i still love the game but im dissapointed in the company.

signed, 5 accounts

GIVE ME BACK MY EXCLAMATION MARK PORTRAIT :( :( :( :( :( :(

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Luna Liandri

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:46:00 +0000
i really didnt care much about isks or BPOs, this is a secondary issue in my eyes.

information is what this game fuels, at least in the 0.0 alliance game.

and therefore its unacceptable that devs are part of this game and have "in-game friends" - regardless which alliance they play in, what position they have and what they do. human nature as a social animal just doesnt allow to stay uninvolved and fair to the rest of your customers.

devs, gms, etc, all employees - they shouldnt be allowed to fraternize in the slightest sense.

all questions concerning that matter are left unresolved.
we see no link to the policy for employees, no information how its controlled and enforced.
quite the contrary, blurr statements.

my conclusions:
- CCP isnt aware that this is a problem for your customers - or CCP is but couldnt care less
- alliance game is not level, all your big "player-based content is our goal"-blogs are not worth a dime
- this game has lost its USP and is not recommendable

sad day indeed.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Platinum Sapphire

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:44:00 +0000

Quote:
Quote:
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44

Quote:
Originally by: Sinlare

Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!

What about proof or stfu? You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?

Proof? Well gee, I don't know... but I think Kieron's admission that Dev characters are being removed from the game might be some kind of admission that there was at least SOME truth to the accusations... There's your proof right there.

All that people here are calling for is that Kieron release more details of that proof so we can be assured that the investigation was conducted fairly and thoroughly... A little transperency to the process, if you will.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Johnathan Roark

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:43:00 +0000
Personally, I do not care if the devs play in player corps. I actually hope they do. I do care if they have abused inside information. Any BPOS or other items received not from normal means should be removed from the game. If the allegations are all lies, I would be happy with a statement saying so. This is not the time to keep the community in the dark.

On another note, the censorship in this thread looks bad.

Corporation Management Improvement

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Captain Thunk

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:42:00 +0000
What happened to the 10+ T2 BPOs that the dev left behind with rkk when he was outed and left? Is it standard procedure for all T2 BPOs lost out of the loop to be moved to a BoB corp? Now Kugutsumen is banned does this mean BoB now own his T2 BPOs too?

Why is the blame being put onto other people for the outing of the devs when it was the devs freely informing bob members of their position that allowed the information to become public. Did they not out themselves?

Does this mean we can freely transfer characters for whichever currency we choose now?

Does this ruling mean we can profit from macro operations so long as we leave sufficient deniability? Most of us would appreciate a few billion extra per month.

What's CCPs opinion on "escalation" - Sir Molle brought us Social Engineering by installing his members in other corporations and alliances like Goonfleet, 0utbreak, CCP and D2. With limited tools to fight this kind of thing are we not surprised that the ante is being raised? It doesn't take a genius to buy a character (easier for parts of the community than the rest) and enroll with another corp - trick is to remember not to say things like "yeah I do that on my main" or "damn! I only have the skills for that on my other char"

To the hard workers of CCP - why is it that the "star wars" signatures have never been deemed offensive, when they so clearly are and made specifically to inflame. One quickly gains the impression that moderation on CAOD can be a one sided affair.

CAPTAIN THUNK

If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Anonymous Coward

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:42:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
*snip* - Cortes You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?
*snip* - Cortes

Well, if I see anyone's life get ruined here, I'll be sure to let you know.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was sworn to secrecy by CCP.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Casper Ozymandias

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:40:00 +0000
Am I the only one who has noticed posts speaking out against CCPs corruption in this thread being outright deleted?

This whole investigation was a joke, Not only was there no real answer for a well deserved question, but the real question itself was entirely ignored and substituted with one no one really cared about.

The only good thing to come out of this thread is that now everyone has a nice new nickname for BoB.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Kedryn Caitin

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:36:00 +0000

Originally by: OmegaClone
What would your Viking ancestors say? Shame Shame on all of you.

They would say, "This one is still a lively ride, brother. Have a hump while I carry this sack of loot back to the longboat. If she is worth anything when you are done, bring her too."

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Slayton Ford

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:33:00 +0000
As a long time EQ player, it is commonly known that the devs play in regular guilds. Additionally, those guilds know that they have a member who is a dev. How does that benefit them? They probably end up beta testing expansions as a guild on the beta server but on live, it doesnt help them in the slightest. EvE is a bit different though. There is a enticement for devs to cheat (as has been done) and give their corps a unfair advantage. Now devs need to understand that they must be above all that. That means no devs should not be allowed to access t2 BPs in the game. If they want t2 items, they need to get it. They may play the game, but they need to understand that due to previous dev actions, the game can be corrupted.

As to the existing BPOs and ebaying 10/10 complexes. A simple but radical solution that would **** everyone off but fix things is to convert every t2 BPO to a BPC (number of runs determined by type, more for ammo, less for ships). Then as a BPC leaves the game due to use, seed in t2 BPOs again. For ebaying complexes, well one solution is to make them more roving through the region so every few weeks they move.

At the minimum though, I would think every t2 BP that was owned by a dev and is no longer in that devs hands should be destroyed AND every item created from those BPs needs to be either destroyed (ill gotten gains from a poisoned fruit) or at the least converted to the best Tech 1 alternative (so a T2 launcher becomes a Arbalest).

Now excuse me while I duck from the flames that will come at me.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Angrona

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:31:00 +0000
Let me preface this by saying I never have or ever had any intention to play in the metagame on the level of the organzations or the operations they run. I log in, I mine, I rat a little, and run missions every once in a while. I'm content with that. I played maybe a couple hours a week, but with the way training works I never "fell behind" like I would have in other MMO's. I've kept up a subsription for over a year soley to support a game system I liked and thought was innovative.

But because of the events/allegations involved here and the subsequent lack of any attempt to "set things right" I'm cancelling my account and will never, ever consider playing another multiplayer by CCP. The level of corruption on the part of CCP staff and the perks enjoyed by players that have absolutely no need for them disgusts me. And it doesn't even sound like a single person was fired - they just need to reroll and probably just edit a spreadsheet record and they're back in business again.

Completely disgusting.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Samirol

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:31:00 +0000
The reason that the eve community wants to know what happened with the BoB betrayal is that there was some pretty damning evidence. Innocent until proven guilty right? The defendent didnt even show up on this one.

There is nothing that says that BoB is innocent of receiving BPOs that were made from thin air. Kieron doesn't even mention it.

Being straight up with the community will help things, instead of it blowing up more when the next Kugutsumen comes along and exposes more corruption.

I buy insane sigs, mail me ingame.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Nifel

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Merciless1
Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Merciless1

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.

Well thats kind of a mute point, If I was forced to leave the corporation I was with by my employer than I would still want to wish them all the best. And yes I would hand over everything I had to them! Dev's make friends in-game just the same as the rest of us.

Whats important is HOW the BPO's where obtained.

Are you serious? Do you not see a difference between someone winning/buying them and spawning them out of nowhere? I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, just saying your crazy for thinking like this, it's basicly the definition of cheating.

Erm... that's kinda what he's saying. What he said was that what's important is if the BPOs were aquired through the same ingame means that everyone else can aquire them. Ie, lottery, buying them or being given them. If it was aquired by those means then people should care less about what he did with them.

"When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car."
RKK Ranking: Sama

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Xoria Krint

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:28:00 +0000
More information about the bpo thing and im happy.
---

My Movies

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Merciless1

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:27:00 +0000
Edited by: Merciless1 on 07/02/2007 08:27:26
nvm, my eyes are playing tricks on me, time for sleep

Originally by: Sausage Commandos
A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by IntegralHellsing

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:21:00 +0000
Edited by: IntegralHellsing on 07/02/2007 08:20:46
Deletion of char is a bit upsetting even to me.
poor devs, have to delete their beloved chars.

Quote:
Due to the amount of time that has passed since the planning and execution of the event arc, we have not been able to confirm nor deny the veracity of these allegations.

I am sure CCP has all the logs from the event, and also have the ability evaluate whether the info was leaked before the event or not. Don't say that CCP doesn't even keep the files/logs of how the planning went everyday, and how the event was executed. I would be quite surprised if a company (even CCP) planning an event doesn't keep files of daily plan, preparation and procedures of a big event (that gave player alliance a free mothership) doesn't even keep a single file on what they planned and executed.

Why am i going on about files/logs? because CCP wrote that long time has passed since the planning and execution of event. don't think ccp deletes/trashes the files and logs just because it happened a long time ago.

What I'm saying is, merely saying 'sorry, no log, no trace. can't really make a nasty decision. please move along for a while.' isn't enough.
Not that i would want to see the reward from event removed, but at least show a trace of having done an investigation into this matter.

It just looks plain stupid when CCP goes 'it happened ages ago, can't make a decision.' because it just gives other people (who doesn't know much about eve-online) the impression that CCP can't even manage its internal issue.

Well i'm going to stop writing before this becomes an accusation + troll. I'm just asking CCP to be more thorough in their investigation. I am sure CCP HAS abilities to lead their internal investigations into leak on the information of event.
If CCP doesn't, I would be very surprised, so would everyone else.

ps. YES my English sucks a lot more than you native speakers, so if you don't understand what i wrote, please just move on.
------------------------------

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Masochistic Cannibal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:20:00 +0000

Originally by: Sinlare
Originally by: Merciless1

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.

Well thats kind of a mute point, If I was forced to leave the corporation I was with by my employer than I would still want to wish them all the best. And yes I would hand over everything I had to them! Dev's make friends in-game just the same as the rest of us.

Whats important is HOW the BPO's where obtained.

I eat babies ! [Hauling services available Contact ingame]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Milano II

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:17:00 +0000

Originally by: Celero Incendium
Originally by: Ab Initio
People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.

So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.

I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.

LOL I knew You'd be posting. I was waiting for it.
Why dont you just let Shamis handle these things?
Anyway. thanks for posting :)

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Merciless1

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:17:00 +0000
Ok my last post quoted the wrong thread for some reason and now I can't edit or delet it

Originally by: Sausage Commandos
A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Azerrad InExile

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Masochistic Cannibal
# Where the BPO's donated to bob from a Dev aquired in a legitimate way?

And for that matter, why were they given to BoB in the first place?

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:15:00 +0000

Originally by: Merciless1

Well said, That about sums everything up, although I must say I'm much more interested about who, what, and what affectis did it have than what charecters and public apologies.

Ditto, i think CCP would be much more inclined to give that information if people would act in a normal way. Now people just want to see something burn, no matter if it's justified or not. It's a sad thing.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Masochistic Cannibal

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:12:00 +0000
CCP I dought you will ever answer these questions but it's worth a try. Will you ever give us answers on the following ?

# Why did a Dev ignore the fact that BoB where benefitting from macro-miners in their space ?

# Why did Dev's ignore account sharing and character sales for $$$ within BoB ?

# Where the BPO's donated to bob from a Dev aquired in a legitimate way ?

Obviously I dont expect an answer now, but after these investigations are finished will you ever release the honest info. I somehow dought it, the truth would tarnish your reputation ever further than it allready has been.

I eat babies ! [Hauling services available Contact ingame]

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Steve Nash

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Ab Initio
Edited by: Ab Initio on 07/02/2007 07:57:33
Originally by: Anonymous Coward
I'm not only a dev, I own all the Vagabond BPOs.

Is that proof enough to ban you from the game? You seem to think it's enough to ban others.

Originally by: Steve Nash
I suspect that the corps/alliances who know they have devs within their ranks see absolutley no conflict of interest. I also suspect that all the other poor saps feel cheated.

I still don't know whether we do or not. If we do, I'm glad they get to experience all the things we do, because it will make for better development of the game. If not, I could care less.

My real life job revolves around computer security, the day I take the word of someone who spends his life breaking into the machines I try to secure, over long standing members of a community I'm part of.. Well, thats the day I stop playing EVE.

A more apt example would be that of a stockbroker who had inside information. It's illegal.

I was not making a personal attack on you, I don't know you, but my point stands.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Merciless1

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:11:00 +0000
Edited by: Merciless1 on 07/02/2007 08:13:41

Originally by: Sausage Commandos
A bobbeh titan at the station!, i curse at myself for being in a shuttle, so i head to station, change to ibis, return to find the scumbag had ran...

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by jamesw

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:09:00 +0000

Originally by: Celero Incendium
Originally by: Ab Initio
People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.

So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.

I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.

afaik his proof they were from ccp was by the ip they used to post to that forum, not by reading conversations with bob leaders.
--

Latest Vid: Domination!

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Dr Felonius

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:08:00 +0000
Edited by: Dr Felonius on 07/02/2007 08:06:21
To me, this entire mess demonstrates the limitations of CCP's extremely closed-off communications policy. I'm completely convinced that the game would be better served by a 90 degree about face.

CCP should require devs to tell everyone who their characters are. They should publish the protocols for monitoring dev activity and let the community at large criticize them. Bare all to the community and say, "Yes, there are developers running CIPUL and many other corps. Here are all the ways you and other players can trust that those developers are playing by the same rules as anyone else." As long as CCP insists on concealing the facts, people will always assume there is something worth concealing.

Edit: CIPUL is not run by devs. I was just using my own corp as an example.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Azerrad InExile

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:07:00 +0000

Originally by: Isidien Madcap
The main problem is that the results of the investigation aren't verifiable in any way.

I would argue that the main problem is that the investigation seemed to completely ignore the main concerns people had.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by 31i73

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:05:00 +0000
Alrgiht, I'm angry about this as anyone, boo BoD and that, but hey, lets face it, We are all so hooked on this, theres no way we could quit. Its like stopping breathing after seeing news on pollution.

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Celero Incendium

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:05:00 +0000

Originally by: Ab Initio
People seem to focus on "devs" so much that they forget that they're actual people. People are cheering because (according to the OP) 3 years vets of the game are being forced to quit, not because they did anything wrong, but because they were named.

Imagine you had been playing EVE for 3 years, and suddenly had to quit the game through no fault of your own. That's the outcome of witch hunts.

Your logic is flawed. By CCP publicly stating that the dev accounts were named, and characters deleted, they are in fact confirming that at least that part of kugot's "evidence" was true. This leads to the conclusion that he didn't just "fabricate" the conversations in question between BoB directors that he got a hold of, at least in regards to the identities of the CCP characters.

So in effect, if the CCP employees had not let the BoB director's know that they were in fact CCP employees, they wouldn't be losing their characters.

I have no sympathy for people that break their own rules and then cry about the consequences.
--ci

Concerning the Recent Allegations of Developer Misconduct - by Sinlare

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:04:00 +0000

Originally by: Anonymous Coward
Edited by: Anonymous Coward on 07/02/2007 07:45:44
Originally by: Sinlare
Indeed, grats to all paranoid whiners! you've ruined someone's fun in real life. Hope you sleep well at night.

Yeah, damn those inconsiderate whistleblowers! If only they'd kept their mouths shut!

What about proof or stfu? You really want to ruin someone's real life over accusations (random) based on some internet game?
Please give me your personal data and i'll go accuse you of things i think are true, let's see how your boss likes that.
If he has any sense in him he'll kick me out, and i hope ccp does the same with paranoid people like you.