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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Skeltek

Fri, 1 Dec 2009 04:16:00 +0000

Its amusing to see you discuss here.
Two fleets trying to outrange each other: both wait at safespot for the other one to warp to a gate, stay there outside of jumprange and wait 15 minutes for your covert to get in a good angle and position.

ANY Fleetcommander/Allianceleader boring his Fleet to death by not getting any good engagement at all for hours, will notice his participationnumbers dropping pretty much in the long term.

The times when you could outrange an uncoordinated noob-fleet at some gate providing you an easy target without them warping off are definitly over.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Unuthiel

Wed, 29 Nov 2009 21:59:00 +0000

Originally by: Raste
T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.

Exactly. The devs nerf T2 sniping ammo, then give the Caldari a ship that outranges T2 sniper setups with *T1* guns and ammo. That's just ridiculous.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tribunal

Wed, 29 Nov 2009 15:57:00 +0000

I personally don't care anymore.

My Rokh will be in my hanger by the end of the week fitted with tech 2 425s for fleet combat. I just feel sorry for the other people who wasted their time training something besides hybrids to tech 2.

"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Azuse

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 15:37:00 +0000

Same with the bs, the rokh is a superb sniper at 250/300km, youll also find it fantastic at 12km with blasters and full tank. Compair this with the hyperion, again its a decent sniper, better than the thron if you fit right (oh the irony) it losses 25m drone space (so only 4 heavys vs. thorns 5) it also gain an extra turret, which we all love because it also has the throns grid and fitting 7 turret on that is almost impossible without an rcu i.e compramising tank so to compensate you take away 2 lows making it harder to fit, genius. So its got a rep bonus, great so we fit 2 reps and have 4 slots to tank, plus our rcus, and the iceing on the cake of course is that 8 guns leaves no room for nos (and a blaster, no matter how deluded the piolt is, wont run on boosters alone if its using hardeners and theres not much options with those lows). p.s. the thorns still outdammages it, and with these rigs plus 2 additional lows it also out tanks it now.

So in summary weve got now ships tha dont know what therye ment to be, cost 50 mil more (80 if the insurace is accurate) and do less dammage across all the races, exept caldari which are now the ranged race with the best blasters.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by General Novartic

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 13:00:00 +0000

humm, how intresting..

Anyways. Who here would be able to get the maelstrom BPO and make a maelstrom up for me. :D Please start offers. Lowest Bid one gets to make it for me.
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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Akiman

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 12:34:00 +0000

Originally by: Gragnor
Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.

The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.

Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?

simple and true...but nooooo it doesnt make uber dps so it suxxxxxx...dpsdpspdpspdpspdps thats all matters aint it?
and dont give more dps to hype too...becouse its a close range ship...it can warp away anytime anyway(!)

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Gragnor

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 11:25:00 +0000

Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.

The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.

Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 10:00:00 +0000

Originally by: Asariasha
However, many of you might have experienced
how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack
is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.

Yes, but that is only possible by (huge) blind luck (or seeding the area with 20 cov ops pilots, but that are 20 potential BS pilots you have less) or by a dumb enemy (let's sit at this sniperspot for 10 minutes/let's reuse our old spots continuously).

It's nothing you can rely on.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Asariasha

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 02:43:00 +0000

In relation to Tribunals note "in fleet fights sig radius doesn't matter..."

Well, I played around a bit with the tracking guide tool.
If you consider the different signature radi and Megathrons
given tracking bonus I came up with the following results:

transversal velocity: 250m/s (worst case, ships flying in opposite directions); ship boni at BS5
target signature radius: 500 for all except Rokh(400)
weapon signature radius: 400
ammo: 50% range bonus

range 40km chance to hit:
Rokh 75%
Mega 93%

range 60km chance to hit:
Rokh 86%
Mega 96%

range Mega opti:
Rokh 93%
Mega 98%

range Rokh opti:
Rokh 97%
Mega 10%

This is just a theoretical comparison to show that a Rokh fleet
has got it's weak point in close range fights. Of course
I have to admit that fleet fights mainly are fought at
long range. However, many of you might have experienced
how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack
is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.

Greets
Asa

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by xOm3gAx

Mon, 27 Nov 2009 02:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa

Quote:
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.

How? They cannot reach it's range.

Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.

- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them
- Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.

The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.

Quote:
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).

You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.

Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.

Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Quote:
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.

And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here.
If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.

YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.

But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.
A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too.
However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.

Simple to get close to the rokhs just use a cov ops or to that are cloaked.... warp to him at your optimal and unleash h3ll total pwnage =P you get more dps and will drop the uber ranged ships that you "can't get close enough to" with relative ease.... total amount of time it takes for a decent cov ops pilot to get into position is 2 minutes crossing quite a long distance ;) You need to think out side of the box... Also a good fleet commander knows these things and will put them into practice. Superior tactics are always more worth while then numbers, kits, or ships. Always have tacklers/scouts.
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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Sun, 26 Nov 2009 21:43:00 +0000

Uuups

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Amuko

Sun, 26 Nov 2009 19:22:00 +0000

Originally by: Nebuli
Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nebuli
Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?

Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Sun, 26 Nov 2009 17:12:00 +0000

Originally by: Nebuli
Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?

Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Nebuli

Sun, 26 Nov 2009 15:51:00 +0000

Originally by: BugxEarl
Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.

Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?

CEO - Art of War

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by BugxEarl

Sun, 26 Nov 2009 02:05:00 +0000

Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tribunal

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 21:28:00 +0000

Originally by: Asariasha
Revelations release does not mean that there will only
be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all
players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have
to train some skills for a long long time considering
that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns.
So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with
the rest of the fleet.

There have been threads in IAC boards saying that people need to train up for the Rokh for months now. The hardcore PvPers that take part in fleet battles have it trained for it already, at least the ones that have payed attention.

Let me also point out that it takes MUCH less time to train a Rokh up to shoot outside of everyother ships range, even with those ships using tech 2 ammo. A Rokh does not require tech 2 guns to outrange every other ship.

Quote:
Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at
long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted.
Many engagements are won just because of a good covert
pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the
hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with
magic.

The only time fleet combat occurs at mid to short range is when a fleet has to hurry to do something or someone screws up.

Getting a cov-ops onto another fleet is not that easy, because fleets don't sit in one spot for long. If a fleet has to rely on a cov-ops to win a fleet battle then I will bet large sums of isk that, that is a dead fleet.

Quote:
should take in consideration that as usual the
Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius.
Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a
Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m.

A sig radius does not matter in a fleet fight between battleships. A Pest will pop just as fast as a Rohk.

Quote:
And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about theother Caldari ships which had these boni all the time.

Do the other ships optimal bonus put their range outside of every other ship's range in the game? The answer is no, so no one had a big problem with them.

"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Asariasha

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 20:19:00 +0000

Revelations release does not mean that there will only
be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all
players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have
to train some skills for a long long time considering
that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns.
So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with
the rest of the fleet.

Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at
long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted.
Many engagements are won just because of a good covert
pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the
hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with
magic.

Also you should take in consideration that as usual the
Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius.
Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a
Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m.
And exactly this is the point when tracking comes into
the game, especially when the opposing fleets movement
cause higher transversal speeds.
Of course you can fit tracking comps, and Im really
interested on how they will effect the above mentioned
fact.

And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about the
other Caldari ships which had these boni all the time.
But now that some players mention hey, opti range isnt
that bad, everybody comes out and cries for a nerf bat
even without taking all pros & cons in consideration.
Revelations itself will change the whole gameplay and
yet too many people stick to old gameplay and tend not
to view on ships out of different perspectives.

And yes, I have already been in fleet battles, but I
must add that I had a longer break.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tribunal

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 19:29:00 +0000

I see your D2 tag, but have you ever been in a fleet battle? I'm only asking because I am seeing a whole bunch of signs that you are very inexperienced with how fleet combat goes.

Originally by: Asariasha
1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured
at opti range of ships without range bonus.

Um? Now why would a fleet consisting of mostly Rokhs start off combat at a range that doesn't take advantage of their optimal bonus?

Quote:
2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships
will overdamage it when they reach their opti.

And how are they going to reach their optimal again? MWD to the rokhs? Or perhaps the non-Rokh fleet has a cov-ops that can instantly appear on the Rokh fleet!

Quote:
3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed shots.

You don't need a tracking bonus in a long ranged fleet battle. Even if, in a magical land far, far away, tracking was a big issue in long ranged fleet battles I'm sure that you could find a spot for a tracking computer in your 6 mid slots.

Quote:
4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but
support has still the option to warp out because of
Rokhs' low alpha strike.

Or they might be used to kill the other fleets battleships, you know, the battleships that can't shoot back because the Rokhs are out of range

Quote:
5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering
for railgun ships.

Unbalanced bonuses are now ok if they follow the "line" of ships before it. I will have to remember that.

"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Lisa Run

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 19:04:00 +0000

Edited by: Lisa Run on 25/11/2006 19:05:20

Originally by: Asariasha

3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed
shots.

Rokh get's more range out of a given ammo, so it can use a more damaging ammo to achieve a certain range. So the rokh can convert it's opti-range bonus into a damage bonus.

And since you mentioned tracking: If the rokh can use tech-1 ammo for all ranges and the other ships need to use tech-2 ammo, then the ships with tech-2 ammo are reduced to 1/4th tracking. ( Except the modifier changes in Kali ).
Ok, doesn't matter, when BS snipe eachother, but it makes a difference with incoming ceptors for example. 4 times better tracking = you can hit interceptors with 4-times higher transversal speed at a given range ofc.

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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by The Armin

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 18:54:00 +0000

I couldn't really care less about the Rokh and I'm certainly not pushing Railguns or Caldari Battleship for it, cause it'll get nerft once they realize how utterly broken it is and how they reduced every other races bs to "Support"

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Asariasha

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 17:52:00 +0000

1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured
at opti range of ships without range bonus.
2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships
will overdamage it when they reach their opti.
3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed
shots.
4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but
support has still the option to warp out because of
Rokhs' low alpha strike.
5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering
for railgun ships.
-------------------------
All non fleetOP Rokh setups are situational and in most of
the times you will be able to escape.
And for Gatecamping - the Rokh may engage at very high ranges,
but a Mega/Pest will do this job much better due to
higher alpha strike needed to plop your targets faster.
Even though....gatecamping will be much lesser due to
warp-to-0km.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tarron Sarek

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 17:02:00 +0000

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.

It might be well executed, but the Rokh stands out from the crowd in a very important aspect. The range bonus isn't truly balanced, because it is quite decisive and the other races lack a ship with comparable use. I don't say, give all the races a ship with a range bonus. That would be boring, obviously. But a bonus that makes them equally useful. Unfortunately now, that's a problem, since most fleet combat essentially is about range and sniper warfare.
So when it comes to fleet combat, you're stuck with the range bonus - or changing fleet warfare.

Well, ok maybe leave the Rokh the way it is, as it's a well rounded concept, but perhaps reduce the range bonus to 7,5% or 5%. Or make up for the discrepancies with some intelligent balancing.
For example the range bonus would be less decisive if ships were generally faster, so they could close in.
One problem might be - ship range and damage exploded, but the ships' speed basically stayed the same.

In principle I agree with Tribunal. Two bonuses leave little room for well rounded combinations. Especially since almost all ships get a damage bonus..
Therefore, sticking with two of them, the bonuses have to be equally useful. That's pretty hard, and you can't really stick to the 5% scheme.

Just did a quick check, and in fact the 50% rage bonus at BS5 is superior to a 25% dmg bonus with regard to fleet ops. At least if it stays the way it is right now.
The reason is, you can't by far compensate it as easily.
Two magnetic field stabilizer II give a 47% dmg boost.
Three tracking computer II give 41% range bonus. And those are active.
Thus at the same range with similar fitting constrains the Rokh does more damage.
It does less max dmg, sure, but that doesn't count in long range sniper warfare, and the difference is too big.
7,5% range bonus and an overall speed boost (probably decreased AB/MWD bonus) might make averything a lot more practicable.

well, my 2 cent

________________________
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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Amy Wang

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 15:51:00 +0000

The Maelstroms tanking bonus is nearly worthless as was pointed out in many posts above.

I doubt we will get any kind of range bonus and another damage bonus would be overpowered indeed.

The easiest and fairest variant would be a percent based shield resistance bonus, same as Rohk gets. This would also been boring so people had the idea of a shield HP bonus.

How much should this bonus be?

A 5%/lvl resist bonus equals a effective 33,33% HP increase.

See here:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=431328

So assuming 10k base shield a 7,5 % shield bonus would leave the Mael with 13,75k shield and the Rohk with 13,33k effetive shield.

Sound fair on the first look, BUT the Maels bonus is only an additional buffer and indirectly increases the passive recharge rate while the Rohks bonus practically does the same PLUS makes an active tank more effective also.

So 7,5 % is not enough, 10% or even 12,5% would be fair.

Change Maelstrom boost bonus to 10%/12,5% shield HP per lvl to make it a usefull fleet ship that it was meant to be!

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Kaeten

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 13:42:00 +0000

Originally by: Zixxa
Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.

Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.

And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.

Rock is best in fleet because with t2 weapons it's about the same as lets say, a t2 rail mega. As you get longer range you can put in more powerful ammo. Wtih t2 guns, the rokh wil lbe a scary sight.

As please stop your bull**** propaganda that caldari sucks and rip raven and all that. Noone will listen to you as your a simple troll. Explain facts and figures in a calm way. It's the only way you'll ever get to change anything.

High-Sec/0.0 PvP Recruitment

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Felxia

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 13:33:00 +0000

I'm fed up with the ne whyperion trying to be a blaster boat and the mega trying to be a sniper boat, they both fit the onther ones roles much better. I'll explain.

Megathron
7x Turrut Slots
4x Mid Slots
7x Low Slots

Megathron is supposed ot be a fleet ship, the bonuses suite the megathron, damage and tracking, fair enough. However I'D Like the megathron to have and extra mid and loose a slow slot if I was to have a "fleet" combat ship. Why? The low slt is irrelevent in fleet combat. The only thing you need in fleets is tracking, damage and a mix of ECM or whatever, plus speed boost and sensor boosters.

About the turrut slots, a blasterboat normally has a nos on, depends on what type of setup the person is trying to achive, the only reason for an extra gun on a blasterboar is damage over survivability. However the mega suites a blasterboat alot more because of it's low slots, they are NEEDED on a blasterboat.

Hyperion
8x Turrut Slots
5x Mid Slots
6x Low Slots

There is no real reason why you should pick the megathron over the hyperion when it comes ot fleet combat. The extra turrut gives a 12.5% dps increase. The tracking bonues is not that important as the fith midslot can handle a tracking computer or 2. In fleet combat the only important factor is getting asmuch damage to the other fleet as possible. With the mid slots ECM is nice, damps etc. FULL rack of 425mm Railgun II. The tracking bonues on the megathron wins with 7.5% over 1 tracking computer II that could be fitted in the hyperions extra midslot, which isn't much in a fleet fight as your shooting battleships. You also have an icreased cpu to paly with ECM modules.

The tanking bonues on the hyperion kind of forces it to tank meaning (imo) at least 2 reps, leaving a crappy 4 slots for damage control/plates/hardners etc. If this bonues was changed to something else t osomething that I would prefer resistence bonuses it would not force everyone to tank as the game on the test server is, "let's see who can fit the most nos and see who has the biggest tank game". I'm not trying to bring gank setups into the picture again however 1v1's that go on for at least 10 min, wtf?

The hyperions mid slot in a blaster type boat would be fitted with ECM, is this what ccp wants. Even though this patch will nerf ECM it still works as I've found out.

Grrr don't have a sig.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Lucre

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 12:54:00 +0000

Originally by: ShadowlordUK
I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.

Amarr ships used to have a 5% per level cap bonus. This wasn't enough, so Amarr pilots went around with railguns and projectiles fitted (or occasionally mixed batteries of lasers and rails). So they changed the bonus to 10% to make lasers worth using again.

Now they introduce an Amarr gunship with ZERO cap bonus.

How come we can all see what's going to happen (again), but Tux can't?

- It's great flying Amarr, aint it?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Miri Tirzan

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 12:29:00 +0000

I saw the writing on this wall a while back. Cal BS level 5 two days after patch. Already have the gunnery support skills, just need to work up to T2 Rails.

svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Plutoinum

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 11:40:00 +0000

Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2006 11:44:52

Originally by: Tribunal
Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS . In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!

I've got him almost ready, caldari-bs V, rapid-firing-5, large rail-spec-3 at the moment, but if fleetbattles turn out to become rokh parties, where tech-1 newbies shoot at 245km, then no fleet combat for me anymore.

I'm minmatar and want to fly tempest and stuff and I think with BS V and large-tech-2 projectiles and a fitting for 100mil isk the least thing I deserve is getting outgunned by tech-1 caldari newbies at 240km with tech-1 ammo.

CTD/con-loss vs. regular log-out. A proposal ...

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by ShadowlordUK

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 09:30:00 +0000

Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 25/11/2006 09:31:19
The Rokh is an insanely good bs... simple fact.

The way you can tell is you think of a raven and then add a STRONGER tank, more fittings and more armor etc...

If you want to complain about dmg output... try fitting a full set of neutron blasters with tech 2 ammo and tell me if the dmg still sucks....

The Rokh is an awesome ship BOTH at very long and very short ranges.

Personally i have long ago accepted that the gms will always give the caldari the edge in eve combat...

So I trained caldari like the other mass of vets.

As far as the abaddon is concerned... i will still use it.. hell its a geddon with an extra turret point and it looks cool.. But tbh any ship that needs TWO large cap injectors fitted and running continuously to function really sucks for anything more then rat huting... and even then you certainly couldnt do anything more then belt rat hunting... Not exactly what you'd expect from a tier 3 bs lol

I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.

P.S. BTW thought i should add, for most ships a range bonus is actually a better bonus then dmg because it allows you to use more dmging ammo types... hence a range bonus is actually a range AND damage bonus in most situations..

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by sandshark

Sat, 25 Nov 2009 06:07:00 +0000

If your hostile rokh is at 250k, just move 1k in the other direction, best jammers around!

I do have to agree though that i'm thinking of abbandoning my gallente roots and just go for caldari since they have it all anyways, best NPC, sniper (well at least now with kali they will...), sniping cruiser (210k range!!!) and scorp and rook are getting better jamming bonusses too. (so they are STILL the pwn in EW)

Lately when any new player asks me what to race to choose i just want to point 'm to caldari.
How many of you wouldn't take caldari now if they would start over?

Its not really the range itself that bothers me, its how cheaply it can be in a rokh.
A fitting for a sniping megathron can go up to 200M isk + the ship itself.
Any rokh pilot can go fly to empire, buy a 425mm T1 rail BPO research it a tad, and there you go, fleetships cheap as dirt!

And don't even get me started on the hyperion

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tribunal

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 23:56:00 +0000

Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS . In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!

"We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 21:48:00 +0000

Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 21:49:42
Ok ok, sorry

It's too late for any changes anyway, time will tell.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Leandro Salazar

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 20:14:00 +0000

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/11/2006 20:15:00
Yeah please stop arguing with that brick wall. Maybe let the mods know about the continued trolling and ranting too, it IS against the rules...
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Succoros

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 19:09:00 +0000

Aramendel I think you should just let this one go
-----------------------------------
Death is more eternal than life.
Everyone dies but not everyone lives.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 18:49:00 +0000

Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 18:50:08

Originally by: Zixxa
You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?

I like truth. I do not like people who try to discredit peoples point with useless chatter (propaganda, etc) instead facts.

Quote:
I know few methods to get in range
Warp on covert.
Turn on MWD and close gap.
If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD.
If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.

(+ about 100 more)

You are beginning to make me doubt that you ever were in a fleetbattle.

Cov ops: the fastest, cheetah, is with gangboni and 3 local nanos about 600 m/s fast. Time for it to travel the 70 km to give your fleet a warpin point: 2 minutes. Sorry, battle is over.

MWDing BSs: Without any additional speedmods (which they won't have in a fleetbattle) they will have speeds between 1000-1500 m/s. So it will take them 45-70 secs to get into range. During which time they are EVEN BETTER targets for the rohks. Which then can also simply warp to a new sniperspot.

Seriously, those 2 options are so utterly, totally DUMB I have no real words for it.

Quote:
I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead.

And you will focus fire a group of rohks which is sitting at 250k from you killing your support and weaker BS how exactly?

Quote:
Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS?
Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it.
Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always.
Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.

Exept they will NOT shoot on the enemy Rohks as I have said multiple times already. Why waste time by shooting at them when they can use it to really weaken the enemy fleet by instapopping their support and the BSs with a weak tank (scorps, geddons, etc).

When the t2 rohks on both sides have grow enough that they can kil leach other in a relatively short time then they will focus first on those, of cource.
But even there it helps the rohks. It's a 33% hp increase. This can be the difference between being able to warp out when 10 other rohks focus fire on you or exploding.
It does not give them an advantage vs an other group of rohks of cource, but that does not mean it is useless.

Quote:
No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.

Ah, I love when a person is arguments and examples to strengthen a statement of theirs.

Try it sometimes. Even brutor reactor slaves can say "this is so". Saying WHY it is so is the key, though.

Quote:
In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die.

All these things effect "damage dealing" fleets just as badly as they effect sniper fleets.

Lag - no real difference there. Unless you would care to explain why a fleet of lets say megas would be less effected there than a fleet of rohks.
Bad FCs - again, same thing. Both fleets have to warp to bookmarks. Where is the difference?
Stupid pilots - unless they are the FC or the intel they are usually only causing their own death.
Lack of intel - ok, a fleet of rohks jumps thorugh a gate which is bubbled and a fleet of megas sits 150km away. Fleet of rohks kills half the mega fleet & dies. A fleet of megas jumps through a gate, bubbled, fleet of rohks 250km away, mega fleet dies without being able to kill a single rohk *because they are out of range*. How exactly does it favour the damage fleet there?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Audri Fisher

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 17:11:00 +0000

Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Audri Fisher

The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!

Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.

A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range.
And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.

Oh, so as long as the range bonus forces a horrible mismatch, it is ok then?
It's ok for a cruiser to have a range bonus because my battleship can rip it a new one?
Or is is because YOUR ship no longer has the max range advantage?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Zixxa

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 16:58:00 +0000

Originally by: Aramendel
Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.

You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?

Quote:
How? They cannot reach it's range.

I know few methods to get in range
Warp on covert.
Turn on MWD and close gap.
If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD.
If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.

Quote:
You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.

I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead. If I can't get reasonable firepower in focus than surgical strike is useless. And you need approximately Two Rokhs to get alpha strike of one Abaddon.

Quote:
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them.

Hah. Enemy will warp out seeing only Rokhs fleet.
And everybody will knows that only situation where such fleet will be dangerous is really big distance. Do you see how you help to enemy bringing only Rokh fleet?

Quote:
Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.

Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS?
Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it.
Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always.
Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.

Quote:
And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.

Quote:
But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.

In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die.
---------------------------------
Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh
Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tiuwaz

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 16:55:00 +0000

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 16:55:49
The Mael needs help plz, or just give us a comment about it

Maelstrom needs help

Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 16:26:00 +0000

Originally by: Zixxa
Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.

Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.

Quote:
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.

How? They cannot reach it's range.

Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.

- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them
- Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.

The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.

Quote:
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).

You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.

Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.

Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Quote:
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.

And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here.
If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.

YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.

But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.
A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too.
However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Zixxa

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 14:29:00 +0000

Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.

Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.

And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.
---------------------------------
Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh
Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 13:22:00 +0000

Exept it isn't that easy.
The rohk has for fleetbattles 2 advantages:

- t2 longrange with t1 ammo
For all other BSs if you only have t1 guns you are not able to participate when you need sniping distances. Which happens in fleetbattles regulary. Rohk pilots can.
No, with their t1 guns & ammo they won't do as much dps as other BSs with t2 ammo, but 50% of other ships dps is still preferable with 0% of their dps.

- surgical strikes with t2 ammo
In a BS blob vs BS blob slugfest rohks won't be THAT effective, yes, but thats not everything fleet combat is about.
Vitally important for any fleet are support ships. Interdictors, intys, EW cruisers,... The more effective fleets in EVE usualyl have a good amount of theses with them (i.e. BOB). Rohks with t2 ammo will be perfect to take these out. Before the real battle starts a smart fleet comamnder will use t2 fitted rohks to warp to a 250k sniper spot, kill 4-5 support ships & warp out. Repeat. Once you have enough rohks you can do the same thing against enemy BSs (scorpians would be prime targets there). An enemy fleet softened this way is a *much* easier target for your own main fleet to take out.

And the only counter for this are...rohks. A good deal more rohks than the other side to be specific. This is where their resistance bonus will prove extremly usefull - it makes tham a lot more durable against counterfire from enemy rohks. A lot more dureable than anything else bar other tier 3 ships. Which will be the last possible targets. So your only option to inflict on a rohk commando as many losses as they inflict on you is to have about 50% more rohks they they have.
Otherwise, as said, the enemy fleet will just kill your support ships with their rohks and then the enemy fleet + rohks + their support ships will destroy the rest of your fleet.

What we'll see is an arms race in t2 rohks for enemy fleets.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Zixxa

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 12:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa
Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.

When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.

0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps

Yes, you are right. In this case damage bonus useless. But it is rare situation. Because you need that ALL or MOST of ships were outranged with ANY Ammo type. And it need to enemy sniper fleet HAVE great alpha-strike(Rokh has worst BS alfa-strike in Eve, except Raven and Scorp and Domi, and with long ranged rail ammo things are even worse for Rokh).
And even if this situation will occur, enemy fleet with bonus damage just warp out and try to win distance using covert ships. Anyway sniper fleet will loose more.

Btw, for what hell Rokh need this famous resistance bonus being so ultimate sniper? Oxymoron...
---------------------------------
Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh
Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aramendel

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 12:30:00 +0000

Originally by: Zixxa
Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.

When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.

0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Shin Mai

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 12:01:00 +0000

why not make the hyperion an blastership without drones and a good bonus, this will be different to the mega, and without drones it can have a bit more grid and a good bonus and it is still not overpowered

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Zixxa

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 11:46:00 +0000

Originally by: Amy Wang

Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.

A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range.
And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.

I will trade anytime range for damage bonus. Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.
---------------------------------
Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh
Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.
R.I.P.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by XFreedomX

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 06:16:00 +0000

Tempest out damages the Mealstrum. (Tempest 6x1200mm + 2 cruise launcher vs Mealstrum 8x1400mm)

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Audri Fisher

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 00:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.

Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.

The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Tiuwaz

Fri, 24 Nov 2009 00:22:00 +0000

the maelstrom really needs some help, neither as ac or arty ship is thing worth flying in 95% of the time

redesign it plz

Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Amy Wang

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 20:07:00 +0000

I cant believe they havent changed the Maelstorm boost bonus to sth useful yet.

First the ships description said it was meant to be a fleet BS.
Then it got that useless boost bonus which is admittedly not usful for that purpose.
Tux admitted it plus the Caldari Railgun platforms on e had that bonus and it got changed to plain resists because....exactly, because it wasnt useful!)

Now the Maelstorms description says sth about versatility? So instead of changing the bonus so the ship can live up to its description you change the ships purpose? Very clever indeed.

So what do we get with the Maelstorm in its current state:

- Fleet BS ?
Nope, since you can ignore the 2nd bonus for that purpose as if it wasnt even there we have basically a tempest with slighty highter damage (8 guns vs 7,5 effective guns) and hp BUT that comes for a way bigger price (baseprice of the ships plus even worse 2 more Artys and we all know how expensive t2 artys are nowadays).
Nobody in his right mind or without huge piles of spare money will use it over the tempest for fleet duty, fact.

- Mission runner:
This might actually work. Better tank then the raven but a raven is still way better for that job (not to mention its faction versions), even with a lot less skillpoints.

- Short range boat:
No way. Tempest and Phoon both beat it terms of dps or utility (nos or siege in missile slots) while being much faster and cheaper.

So with its current boost bonus the Maelstorm is not worth using over the other minni BS or any other BS for that matter, its broken, underpowered and really a shame, especially since the decent ship minnies got with revelations, the Hurricane, got that unecessary nerf.

Change the boost bonus per level to sth useful like:

- +5% Shield Resists (boring but useful)

- +7,5% Shield hp (useful and unique, maybe 10% even)

- + 10% falloff (does not mean AC boat! it will help artys more then you think, because they are more often used in their falloff in mixed fleet because they are the shortest range compared to rails and beams, a AC Mael would be possible but not too good because of its high mass and slow speed)

- +10% optimal range (artys have the shortest range of all long range weapon systems so they deserve a ship based range bonus much more then a rail platform like the Rohk)

All these bonuses would make the Maelstorm into what it was intended to be: A Fleet BS worth using.

Dont leave it as it is now, would be a shame to waste that nice ship model for sth that is not worth flying...

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by keepiru

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 19:26:00 +0000

Because caldari are also supposed to be the best snipers.
----------------

Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Ammon Ishar

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 19:20:00 +0000

please do something with maelstrom! it's absolutely useless

and i can't understand one thing - why Caldari (great missiles specialists), have best sniping battle for a fleets?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Shin Mai

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 16:44:00 +0000

the hyp should be a real blasterboat, maybe with a malus on range, and mega can then used as sniper or as blaster too, but not that well...

oh and anyone knows if there are t3 faction bs??

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Ithildin

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 16:39:00 +0000

Originally by: Menf
its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with Missi*****nus
I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..

i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missi*****nus...but this is really S***

Aside from the fact that they made a duplicate blaster ship for Gallente, how would you make a tier 3 Caldari battleship with missiles without usurping the Raven?
-
EVE is sick.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Menf

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 14:59:00 +0000

its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with Missi*****nus
I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..

i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missi*****nus...but this is really S***

_____________________________________________

Some players allready noticed.. "If you SEE me, its allready too late..."

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Shin Mai

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 14:14:00 +0000

dont think so, because domis price becomes tripled, and domi is still really good, and gallente could need a fast blasterboat...

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Leandro Salazar

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 14:10:00 +0000

Originally by: Shin Mai
u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)

Right, I cannot. But Tux could
All it takes is switching the HP amount, required skill, model, resource reqs and ship bonuses of the current Hype and the current Domi. Then the old Domi is tier3 and the new Hype is tier1.
Not that I think this has more than a snowball's chance in hell of happening though.
---------
ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Shin Mai

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 13:46:00 +0000

u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Leandro Salazar

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 11:55:00 +0000

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/11/2006 11:56:13

Originally by: Aphotic Raven

Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered [...]

Who said Domi was overpowered? I said it is very powerful which noone with a clue can honestly deny. So selfish reasons from Domi pilots put aside, what would be so bad about the price tag reflecting that?

And yeah, I would also agree with giving the tier3 drone boat the sexy Hype model, and the tier1 SD boat the buttugly Dominix model.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Leandro Salazar

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 11:51:00 +0000

Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.

I already fly all races and use all weapons, thank you. It is just that I (obviously) like diversity and consider the singleminded 'Amarr way' pretty retarded. Adding a ship that does the same thing as two others we already have goes 100% against what I think makes EVE great.

There really is not so much of a problem with EANs and lasers, there is a problem with common Amarr attitiude towards possible solutions for their problem.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Ithildin

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 11:44:00 +0000

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ather Ialeas

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.

He's saying that, regardless of how the Amarr line up looks like, drones are a Gallentean fortT, and if one wishes to excel at drones one should train for Gallente. (Although personally, I think it's OK to add drone ships to other races as long as Gallente ships are *better* drone ships - which incidentally has nothing to do with cost)

Quote:
Originally by: Ather Ialeas

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way

for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.

Those ships are:
Missile ship, drone and EW ship, laser ship, laser ship.

There are neat ways to fit it all in without upsetting racial preferences, etc. but I don't think CCP want me to tamper with their game balance, considering I'd start at the root and overhaul the game
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EVE is sick.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Udyr Vulpayne

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 11:27:00 +0000

Originally by: Ather Ialeas

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.

Originally by: Ather Ialeas

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way

for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by erConte

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 08:14:00 +0000

Just did my first (fast) tour on test server... wow, Hyperion capacitor is more sucking than I was thinking

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Ather Ialeas

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 06:57:00 +0000

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by xOm3gAx

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 02:52:00 +0000

Originally by: Gragnor
I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).

You know its funny cus i was using a rokh with 8x 425mm's and got wtfpwnbbqfishsticks by the new tier 3 matari ship does that mean they need to be nerfed... no not really and btw i never made it past his shields in optimal with antimatter ammo. I also have 7mil sp in gunnery was t1 vs t1 and i never took more then 25% of his shields ;) Just rethink ur kit.
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Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Aphotic Raven

Thu, 23 Nov 2009 01:38:00 +0000

Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:43:54
Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:41:56

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.

Quote:

No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.

Thnx.

Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered its just not ****house. Again, for all you blaster sports fans *****ing about the dominix, it gets about 11.5k PG.

3 heavy nos = 6k
2 LAR = 4k
100MN AB = 0.5k?
1600mm plate = 0.5k

enjoy that last 500pg, mount some 150mm rails and wtfpwn a mega... sure...
THATS why domi pilots use ecm, they have left over CPU for putting cool stuff on.... frigate/cruiser size cool stuff... hurray.

Hyperion on sisi enjoys about 17k PG i believe (i may be wrong)...
People need to learn to fit nos on ships that need it... retards...
Domi is balanced, ECM was overpowered, thats gone now, congratulations whingers.
Now ISK and numbers are all that wins a fight, go on and whinge for a NOS nerf too just to ensure that you always win if you have the bigger shinier hunk of blastercrap.

Seriously fly a dominix and then jump in a hype for a day and stfu.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by keepiru

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 21:45:00 +0000

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.

No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.

Thnx.
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Kali ships worth flying left: Harbinger, Rokh. Only 2 left tux, you can make it!

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Leandro Salazar

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 17:40:00 +0000

How about just mixing all the Battleships up a bit:

Caldari: Fine as is.

Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.

Minmatar: Typhoon gets one or two more missile slots (+25m dronebay if only +1 missile), and the turret bonus is changed to a painter one (cheap tier1 EW BS). Maelstrom becomes, well, I don't know, but it needs to be powerful enough to justify the tier3 price tag.

Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Raste

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 16:10:00 +0000

Get rid of the Rokh range bonus. T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.

Change the shield boost bonus to a damage bonus on the Mael. Shield boost is useless for fleet.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by LC Sulla

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 16:08:00 +0000

Originally by: Gragnor
I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

How the hell the devs are able to wade through all this crap I'll never know...

How about telling us EXACTLY what you had in your mids and lows (as well as your gunnery skills). What was your optimal range and tracking? Was your oppenent too close or have too high a transveral? Did you have t2 shield hardners, t2 shield boost amp?? Did you have damage mods in your lows (I mean the right ones for arbies )... Were you equally matched in skill with your opponent or are you a noob with 2m sp while he/she has 30m sp.

A loss in combat is not sudden proof that one ship type owns another.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Ather Ialeas

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 16:04:00 +0000

Originally by: The Armin
wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)

...because...?

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by The Armin

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 15:12:00 +0000

wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Asariasha

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 12:45:00 +0000

Edited by: Asariasha on 22/11/2006 12:46:31
Oh lol and there comes the next whine about a BS sized Ferox
called Rokh. Well Im waiting for the next nerfbat applied onto
Caldari due to soooo much overpowered ships. Found any ironicism?

If you want to beat a Rokh, just fit a AC setup and go for
closerange as a Cyclone Pilot does with Ferox guys.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Gragnor

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 12:31:00 +0000

I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Shadowsword

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 09:35:00 +0000

Originally by: BillyBong2
For the Abaddon, what about using Pulses, tracking and plates. MWD, Webber,Tracking?

Use the resists to survive up close. Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.

Fitting for close range in large battles is just asking to get "kitted" inside an interdictor bubble, and get sniped from afar. Better to fit for long range and still be marginally effective in close.
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Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Kagura Nikon

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 09:27:00 +0000

Come on CCp. We are having several issues here but i will try to cover only a group the matar one. We have issues with arties loosing its AS.. maelstrombeing not very good... Amar ships with projectiles being better than mata with projectiles etc...

You can solve all this changing all 5% damage bonus on matarian ships to 7% and changing Maelstrom 5%rof to 7% damage. Now Projectiles would stay at Minmatar ships as well alpha strike.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Noriath

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 06:45:00 +0000

Edited by: Noriath on 22/11/2006 06:45:51

Originally by: BugxEarl
Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.

They don't? Hmm, strange, I could have sworn a TP/RT Raven was up there with the most powerful close range gankers, and generally capable of a dozen non-gank setups that work brilliantly at under 20km.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Kunming

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 05:22:00 +0000

Originally by: XFreedomX
And the Amarrian whinefest continues....

I think I can talk in the name of all Amarr pilots:

**** off troll!

Quote:
READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by XFreedomX

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 04:56:00 +0000

And the Amarrian whinefest continues....

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Angelic Resolution

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 04:16:00 +0000

Abaddon is excellent. Only problem it has is 8 Large lasers, lots of cap drain and no real way to keep all 8 firing continually. Extra mid slot for a cap recharger would work nicely IMO.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by BugxEarl

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 02:04:00 +0000

Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.

In light of the calibration point change, I'd like to mention a couple of things;

t1 gets 200 calibration points, meaning....no more Abaddon filled with cap reduction rig! What does this mean? Basically, Abaddon's cap consumption got reduced by 33-% with the damage bonus change and it's got an increase of cap consumption by 15% due to rigs being un*****ble. For christ's sake atleast boost the cap use reduction rig both for hybrid and laser. Doesn't have to be godly amount, just enough to compensate for the change.

Tier 3 Battleships discussion - by Noriath

Wed, 22 Nov 2009 00:23:00 +0000

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
Originally by: Noriath
Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.

If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.

Congratulations! You won the 2nd medal this week for utterly stupid posting!

Congratulations, you won the platinum bowl with minibar for utterly unqualified flaming!